forget the bankroll play...

[IIchron15_2 0]

In the long run, you have to play within your skills and within your bankroll else you will end up in trouble. I sense impatience in your approach and likely that is the problem when you sit at the 3/6 tables. If you are getting beat it's because you have the opportunity to get beat. When playing against loose, in-experienced players, you have to pick spots that lose very little chips (so you don't appear too tight) and wait to get the monster that makes it profitable to play. There is no reason why you can't win at 3/6 tables if you are "truly" better than your opponents. You might not win every day but over 5 sessions you should be ahead if you are really better.Maybe impatience is bringing you down to their level. Just a thought...

[lind0 0]

Sounds like you're simply better at No-Limit than Limit. I say play your best game. Play patiently and try to build an adequate bankroll. I started with way less than what would be considered adequate and I've been lucky enough to build my bankroll to where it should be.

[alf13 0]

Some of you don't seem to live in the real world.....Here in Florida in the straight $2 games......they are populated by the worst players on the planet.....Now..you would think that a good player can beat that game in the long run...right?Well....what do you think of a game that is capped every single hand pre-flop with 8 to 10 players going to the flop?It is a slot machine game......Good Hand Selection is the only way to beat that game and you end up beating it for so little money that it's not worth it.....So yeah.....I will tell you this...play the level that you feel you play best at....I could probably beat 2/4 Limit like a drum but I won't play there because the stakes bore me....and by being bored...you might stray from proper hand selection....BTW...screw that 300bb bankroll requirement....about 80% of the pros you hear about have never even given that a thought....Do what you feel...fuk it.

Really? Link 2. Give me direct quotes.

There are many...but I will give you one right now....THE OWNER OF THIS SITE!!!!!!!!!!Sorry...but you walked right into that one....Daniel said that he played 80/160 with a 3,200 bankroll....

[squizie 0]

bankroll management is for wimps

[alf13 0]

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tournament...eo&video_id=141Here is the video of Daniel saying that he played 80/160 on a $3,200 bankroll.

[Kendren 1]

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tournament...mp;video_id=141Here is the video of Daniel saying that he played 80/160 on a $3,200 bankroll.

Alright. And he went broke how many times? Twice?

[Kendren 1]

Sounds like you're simply better at No-Limit than Limit. I say play your best game. Play patiently and try to build an adequate bankroll. I started with way less than what would be considered adequate and I've been lucky enough to build my bankroll to where it should be.

Seems to be to most level headed thing said so far.

[alf13 0]

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tournament...mp;video_id=141Here is the video of Daniel saying that he played 80/160 on a $3,200 bankroll.

Alright. And he went broke how many times? Twice?

Going broke is a part of it....Losing is also a part of it....When you start off playing poker regularly...you take lumps and you learn...hopefully you learn enough before you really put a dent in your bankroll.

[Kendren 1]

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tournament...mp;video_id=141Here is the video of Daniel saying that he played 80/160 on a $3,200 bankroll.

Alright. And he went broke how many times? Twice?

Going broke is a part of it....Losing is also a part of it....When you start off playing poker regularly...you take lumps and you learn...hopefully you learn enough before you really put a dent in your bankroll.

Really, that's the whole point of having a guideline of what kind of BR you should have in relation to what you're playing. And to be honest, the OP said he was properly rolled for 3/6, and I can't remember if it was a 10 or 30 buy in guideline for NL. 10, he's still good for 1/2 NL.And I think many of us started out without the roll for what we were doing. I certainly did. Went broke, too :oops:

[alf13 0]

And I think many of us started out without the roll for what we were doing. I certainly did. Went broke, too :oops:

All of us do....Until we find a comfort zone and our bankroll keeps us at a certain level....I can't for the life of me move up from 10/20....I am stuck....Wife and Kid will do that....

[Erik67 0]

I do as well. Chan, Ivey and Brunson have also said that they do better against good players, but they are stupid and don't know anything.please, show me where this was said. please. I reeeeeeeeeally would like to read this. I make more money in 6/12 and 8/16 than in 3/6 or 4/8. gee, i wonder why that is? could it be that the stakes are larger? Can you tell me what your winrate is in the higher games as compared to 3-6? I doubt it. Let me give you a hint: its probably worse.

Actually, blaze, I saw on that Fox Beyond The Glory thing Brunson did say he did better agianst better players than not so good ones. So it has been said. But he also said it in the context that they were more predictable, thus making them beatable. JOhnny Chan said in an interview on Poker Superstars II that he does better against the guys he's played against for years, because he knows what they're going to do, it just takes him longer to figure out the strangers. But people take that to mean "Wow, the bet players are the easiest to beat! I need to move up to 100/200, I'll make a killing!"

Cardplayer Magazine, Dec. 13,2004 edition, Pge. 56. CP: In Tournaments, do you like playing against experienced players or beginners?Ivey: I like playing against good players because they fold more often, but you can get more chips of of beginning players with good hands.OK, so it was 1/2 and 1/2. I don't keep records for 4/8 and under becasue I only play them during the short wait or the bigger games, but it's close to the 6/12 - 9/18 that I play mostly. Which is about 1.5 BB/ hr. this year. Even if it is a bit more for the lower games. Are you saying you'd rather win 2 BB/hr in 2/4 or 3/6 than 1 in 9/18? Not to forget that the rake in the small games is more of a factor that the higher ones.Another reason is that the lower games are boring to me. I don't focus as much. In the article I quoted, Ivey said the same thing.Back to my point, Why should a player play a lower stakes game when he can beat a bigger one and has a decent BR. BTW, my BR is 150-200BB depending on the game, so I'm not playing games with 50BB in my BR.

[dmoneypoker 0]

3/6 games at casinos are absolutely mindnumbing experiences. stick to the 1/2 NL game.Playing against better players may not be +EV when you first start out and risk a little bit more than you should, but it's the only way to get better. Then when you beat that game moving up against even better players, again, is the only way to get better. Soon I am going to start playing 2/5 and I'm absolutely terrified about the money I might lose but I want to be great. Crushing the 1/2 game is nice and I can always fall back on it if I need cash, but I wanna get better.If most of you guys want to continue to abuse fish at 3/6 Limit bingo (cuz that's what it is, it's BINGO, not poker!) for the rest of your poker careers be my guest. But it won't make you a great player. Winning player, very possibly.If this isn't your objective when you play then ignore this post, but if it is do yourself a favor and stay away from those small limit tables.

[alf13 0]

3/6 games at casinos are absolutely mindnumbing experiences. stick to the 1/2 NL game.Playing against better players may not be +EV when you first start out and risk a little bit more than you should, but it's the only way to get better. Then when you beat that game moving up against even better players, again, is the only way to get better. Soon I am going to start playing 2/5 and I'm absolutely terrified about the money I might lose but I want to be great. Crushing the 1/2 game is nice and I can always fall back on it if I need cash, but I wanna get better.If most of you guys want to continue to abuse fish at 3/6 Limit bingo (cuz that's what it is, it's BINGO, not poker!) for the rest of your poker careers be my guest. But it won't make you a great player. Winning player, very possibly.If this isn't your objective when you play then ignore this post, but if it is do yourself a favor and stay away from those small limit tables.

AMEN....

[Erik67 0]

3/6 games at casinos are absolutely mindnumbing experiences. stick to the 1/2 NL game.Playing against better players may not be +EV when you first start out and risk a little bit more than you should, but it's the only way to get better. Then when you beat that game moving up against even better players, again, is the only way to get better. Soon I am going to start playing 2/5 and I'm absolutely terrified about the money I might lose but I want to be great. Crushing the 1/2 game is nice and I can always fall back on it if I need cash, but I wanna get better.If most of you guys want to continue to abuse fish at 3/6 Limit bingo (cuz that's what it is, it's BINGO, not poker!) for the rest of your poker careers be my guest. But it won't make you a great player. Winning player, very possibly.If this isn't your objective when you play then ignore this post, but if it is do yourself a favor and stay away from those small limit tables.

AMEN....

I'll second that AMEN...

[UglyJimStudly 0]

no, i am just saying a bunch of scrubs play 3-6 and will not fold their hand till the river. they dont understand the concept of folding if you have bottom pair and someone raises and reraises before your play.

A game like that is an absolute gold mine over the long run. Sounds like your problem is you can't handle the variance - over the short run, it can be frustrating to see the fish win, and sometimes they will. If you don't have the mindset to take the long term view, well, poker probably isn't a good game for you, but I can see where you might want to seek out a more predictable game in which to work on that problem.

[RMac 0]

Is anyone familiar with the theory of Schooling? Its not even really a theory its just common sense. Even if you have a big hand say Q-Q, you can play perfectly, raise all you want, but the more players that call, the more chance you have to be cracked.Alf and others are right about Florida's antiquidated $2 law, you might as well play roulette or slot machines. It doesnt matter how good of a player you are, it is impossible to make a long term profit in these limit games, even playing only good cards in games where there are 7+ people to a flop.

[justblaze 0]

Is anyone familiar with the theory of Schooling? Its not even really a theory its just common sense.

actually, its a theory. and a highly speculative one at that. I cant believe what this thread has degenerated into.

[econ_tim 0]

Is anyone familiar with the theory of Schooling? Its not even really a theory its just common sense. Even if you have a big hand say Q-Q, you can play perfectly, raise all you want, but the more players that call, the more chance you have to be cracked.Alf and others are right about Florida's antiquidated $2 law, you might as well play roulette or slot machines. It doesnt matter how good of a player you are, it is impossible to make a long term profit in these limit games, even playing only good cards in games where there are 7+ people to a flop.

I can't believe how much discussion there has been on this topic.It is one of the most basic priniciples of poker and gambling in general.You make money off bad players.What RMac fails to realize is that, although having more people in the pot makes your QQ more likely to get cracked, it also makes the pot bigger so that you win more when you don't get cracked.The line of reasoning of some of the above posters is what leads people to fold AA in cash games when there are seven limpers in front of them.You should try and understand why bad players who call to the end are profitable if you want to improve your poker game.

[Don Giovanni 0]

3/6 games at casinos are absolutely mindnumbing experiences. stick to the 1/2 NL game.Playing against better players may not be +EV when you first start out and risk a little bit more than you should, but it's the only way to get better. Then when you beat that game moving up against even better players, again, is the only way to get better. Soon I am going to start playing 2/5 and I'm absolutely terrified about the money I might lose but I want to be great. Crushing the 1/2 game is nice and I can always fall back on it if I need cash, but I wanna get better.If most of you guys want to continue to abuse fish at 3/6 Limit bingo (cuz that's what it is, it's BINGO, not poker!) for the rest of your poker careers be my guest. But it won't make you a great player. Winning player, very possibly.If this isn't your objective when you play then ignore this post, but if it is do yourself a favor and stay away from those small limit tables.

AMEN....

I'll second that AMEN...

ill third that AMEN, oh no, wait, i like money. yea ill take abusing a 3-6 game anyday. i have a lot of fun beating low limit games. why wouldnt you want to play "bingo" for a nice profit everyday? youre trying to say that being a winning player is not as important as being a losing player that is improving or something crazy like that. well you arnt a good player unless you are winning. there are ways to improve while crushing the limits you are on.moving up to a limit where you are admitedly afraid of the stakes WILL NOT MAKE YOU BETTER, IT WILL MAKE YOU BROKE. throw that crazy idea in the garbage and improve your game at stakes you can handle. and get it in your head that you only make money from people who are not as good as you.

[Marchione 0]

i think everyone should step out of there BR limit every now and then !!! if not how are you supose to get better !!!phil ivy used to play all week 75-150 $ so make enough cash to play the 400-800 !! and guess what henry O used to bust him everytime (for 6 months) ,i truly believe in order to get better you have to take some risk !!!whats the worst thing !! you end up back at the 3-6 table its not like you have far to fall....good luck

[werm 0]

I think what the guy is saying is that the 3-6 table is not beatable.I know what he means.....I've sat at tables like that before and skill and patience has nothing to do with it. When you have 10 players and all 10 go to a showdown there is no skill, the best hand wins. It's impossible to make money at a table like that unless you just catch a hot streak.I say go for it on the no-limit. If you are using 300xtheBB you got 1800 as a bankroll. Thats 9 buy-ins at the $200 max NL table. I would rather have more than that but I'll take my chances there before I sit in a 3-6 game like that.

[alf13 0]

What some don't understand is that the long run can mean 15 years....40 years....560 years.....Like I said....forget about the Straight $2 tables in Florida...they are not beatable...(Only beatable like I said...for a very small profit which makes the game not worth it.)As for the smaller limits...yeah..they are beatable.....But like I said...find a comfort level at a real poker game...and in my opinion...it begins at 5/10 limit and the NL games....

[UglyJimStudly 0]

Is anyone familiar with the theory of Schooling? Its not even really a theory its just common sense. Even if you have a big hand say Q-Q, you can play perfectly, raise all you want, but the more players that call, the more chance you have to be cracked.

And yet, over the long run you make a lot more money with five callers than with one, so long as 2 or 3 of the five have junky cards. No theory involved, just simple EV calculations.

It doesnt matter how good of a player you are, it is impossible to make a long term profit in these limit games, even playing only good cards in games where there are 7+ people to a flop.

Er, no. If you're a good player, making money in these kinds of games over the long run is absolutely guaranteed, it's about as much of a sure thing as you'll ever find in a casino. It's over the short run that you can't say with any certainty whether you'll be ahead, and some players either don't have the temperament for those sorts of swings or don't have the fundamental skills required to beat even a soft game over the long run.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

What some don't understand is that the long run can mean 15 years....40 years....560 years.....

Everybody who makes any money at poker is doing so over the long run, so I think people understand what that means. I think it's pretty cute that people have this bizarre idea that they need to find better opponents in order to win - most of the time, it just means they'll lose at a nice steady pace, instead of in wild swings. Maybe that's comforting, I dunno.

[alf13 0]

What some don't understand is that the long run can mean 15 years....40 years....560 years.....

Everybody who makes any money at poker is doing so over the long run, so I think people understand what that means. I think it's pretty cute that people have this bizarre idea that they need to find better opponents in order to win - most of the time, it just means they'll lose at a nice steady pace, instead of in wild swings. Maybe that's comforting, I dunno.

Let me re-phrase it.....WHO WANTS TO PLAY 3/6 for 15 years?FUK the long haul.....move up...get comfortable and get away from the Bingo games.....You know....some of you really need to go play that straight $2 in the Florida Casinos....or the 3/6 at the Mandalay or the 2/4 at the Excalibur....