did i play it the right way??

[Herschel 0]

First, a bit of background - I am fairly new to this website and have been playing Hold 'Em for about 2 years. I generally play low level No Limit or Pot Limit and have been doing ok (am still in the black by a few hundred).However, last night I felt more gutted than I ever have before......I'm in a MT Tourney, 292 players and it's down to the final 13; having played probably my best poker of the last 2 years, I'm sitting in 2nd on 53,000 (leader is on 71,000); I felt it was going great, I was getting good reads on others betting patterns and had a fair amount of success on any coin flips (although I was almost always the slight favourite).So, with 6 on my table and 7 on the other, the blinds are 800/1600 and I'm sitting to the right of the button.First 2 call, and I'm sat there with pocket 9's, so I make it 5,000 to go; button (who has around 50,000) takes a fair amount of time, then calls; everyone else folds.The flop comes 9c, Kh, 10h; the pot is 15,600 and I've hit the set.Given that my opponent took so long to call the pre-flop raise, and based on how he's played for the last 1/2 hour, I put him on either A10 or A9; so, I was certain I was ahead.It was up to me, so with 15,600 in the pot, I raised all-in for 48,000, putting my opponent all-in.He calls immediately, which had me a little worried; I show my set, he then shows A6 of hearts!Next card is a heart, meaning I have to pair the board, which doesn't happen, and I go from 2nd in chips to 13th, then out a couple of hands later.......So, I've been going back over in my head where I could have gone wrong, or is it just bad play by my opponent to call an all-in bet on a 2.5/1 draw, for a pretty much even money pot???In hindsight, I figure I should either have: -1. checked the flop, called his bet (as I'm sure he'd have fired at it), checked the turn and then folded to his all-in; leaving me still in about 3rd.2. bet a small amount and, assuming he flat called (which I think he would), bet a small amount at the turn and fold to his all-in.Again, having played with him for 1/2 hour, I can be pretty sure about how he would have played the pot in 1. and 2. above, so I would still have been in with a shout of winning.So, the question I really would like someone with a lot more experience than me to answer is - did I play this pot badly, or did he just get lucky on what (in pot odds) was, I think, a bad call for all his chips? (or am I mistaken, and would most people have called my bet?)Thanks in advance,A frustrated poker player. :x

[anselm 0]

For starters, loose low-limit players are way, way too addicted to their flush draws (especially nut ones). I have taken more bad beats this way than any other, making them pay through the nose to draw but they're still willing.Secondly, in the loose, reckless games I'm used to an over-the-top all-in is almost always considered a bluff. Crazy, I know. I've watch countless donkey's fold to my $50 bet but in the same scenario would call my $500 wanting to prove they know I'm bluffing (which I'm usually not. that's the reason I went all-in!). The case may be different, I'm just saying: it's stupid of them, but for some reason all-in's don't get the respect they deserve in low-limit.So I think he played pretty stupidly. However...Here's the important thing though: I don't understand why you went all-in. Your read on him was pretty dang accurate (minus the whole flush thing) so why overbet the pot? If he had A6o, he probably wouldn't even call a half-pot bet, let alone one 3x the pot. And since you have a wicked strong hand that's ahead on the flop why not slowplay it a little? First, you get to see what the turn brings and secondly, you get to rope him in with a strong hand. After you saw the heart on the turn you can slow it down even further. I don't know if I'm explaining this right but I just don't see how betting 3x the pot was wise on flop (certainly not in retrospect). Generally I advocate straight-forward poker - not the TV variety - and betting with your hands and not slowplaying. Yet in this case, I really think taking it way slower would've paid off huge (in savings, in this case).

[Mattnxtc 0]

why not just bet the pot on the flop? if he calls then u havent commited all ur chips and u still have a decent stack left...if he calls teh flop its easy enough to put him on a draw and with that turn card being what it was it might have caused u to slow down and not risk all ur chips

[Herschel 0]

Exactly the kind of reply I wanted.I guess the reason I went all-in was to definitely put him out of the pot, as I was sure he would draw lower bets to catch a hand; and the way I figured it, if I bet the pot (for example) and instead of playing for the catch, he re-raised all-in (on a bluff, as I was sure I'd read his cards), I would have called anyway.I guess the one thing I hate doing is underplaying a hand; so in my eyes, my choice was either a check, or all-in.Thanks for the help Anselm, I'll certainly know how to play it better next time...... 8)

[Herschel 0]

Thanks Matt.I didn't bet the pot, because I didn't want him to catch, and wanted to put him out of the pot before he could......

[grittybones 0]

First, a bit of background - I am fairly new to this website and have been playing Hold 'Em for about 2 years. I generally play low level No Limit or Pot Limit and have been doing ok (am still in the black by a few hundred).However, last night I felt more gutted than I ever have before......I'm in a MT Tourney, 292 players and it's down to the final 13; having played probably my best poker of the last 2 years, I'm sitting in 2nd on 53,000 (leader is on 71,000); I felt it was going great, I was getting good reads on others betting patterns and had a fair amount of success on any coin flips (although I was almost always the slight favourite).So, with 6 on my table and 7 on the other, the blinds are 800/1600 and I'm sitting to the right of the button.First 2 call, and I'm sat there with pocket 9's, so I make it 5,000 to go; button (who has around 50,000) takes a fair amount of time, then calls; everyone else folds.The flop comes 9c, Kh, 10h; the pot is 15,600 and I've hit the set.Given that my opponent took so long to call the pre-flop raise, and based on how he's played for the last 1/2 hour, I put him on either A10 or A9; so, I was certain I was ahead.It was up to me, so with 15,600 in the pot, I raised all-in for 48,000, putting my opponent all-in.He calls immediately, which had me a little worried; I show my set, he then shows A6 of hearts!Next card is a heart, meaning I have to pair the board, which doesn't happen, and I go from 2nd in chips to 13th, then out a couple of hands later.......So, I've been going back over in my head where I could have gone wrong, or is it just bad play by my opponent to call an all-in bet on a 2.5/1 draw, for a pretty much even money pot???In hindsight, I figure I should either have: -1. checked the flop, called his bet (as I'm sure he'd have fired at it), checked the turn and then folded to his all-in; leaving me still in about 3rd.2. bet a small amount and, assuming he flat called (which I think he would), bet a small amount at the turn and fold to his all-in.Again, having played with him for 1/2 hour, I can be pretty sure about how he would have played the pot in 1. and 2. above, so I would still have been in with a shout of winning.So, the question I really would like someone with a lot more experience than me to answer is - did I play this pot badly, or did he just get lucky on what (in pot odds) was, I think, a bad call for all his chips? (or am I mistaken, and would most people have called my bet?)Thanks in advance,A frustrated poker player. :x

there's a bad beats section on this site. but just in case you were wondering, fold trips immediately. they never hold up.thanks for posting.

[Herschel 0]

Apologies, I've just seen that there's a bad beats section. :roll:

[anselm 0]

...the way I figured it, if I bet the pot (for example) and instead of playing for the catch, he re-raised all-in (on a bluff, as I was sure I'd read his cards), I would have called anyway.

This is key info and not being there I don't know the player. Your play makes more sense if you thought he would go all-in on a semi-bluff/draw. In that sense, putting the pressure on him makes more sense. And of course, it's easy to say all this after the fact. I certainly wouldn't say you played poorly. Had the deck just cooperated and thrown in a spade or something we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[chindi 0]

I guess the one thing I hate doing is underplaying a hand; so in my eyes, my choice was either a check, or all-in.

That's a fairly sub-optimal approach to take there. Especially in good chip position in a tourney. As the previous replier already said, a lot of people in thoseloose/aggressive games tend to take the way overbet all-in as you just trying to push them off the pot, regardless of your hand strength, so a truly insane number of them are going to call with any kind of marginal draw (and I'd wager he thought he was drawing to the flush, with the ace as a live out).You say you were fairly confident in your read on his playing style... but it's also possible he chose to play his position with a different kind of marginal hand (KJs, KQs etc) in which case you're actually far less of a favorite than you think. The pot-sized bet leaves you a lot of options (one of which may end up being calling his all-in), I just think the all-in empties the cookie jar. Mind you part of this is also just on my tournament style, in the 10-15 player range I tend to be a little tighter and a little less maniac when I've got good position. Not saying I'd be able to get away from the hand either, even if he just called on the flop, mind you.

[krup24 0]

I believe the call of your all in is simple for the other player. I mean by you firing that all in ur just screaming for him to drop out or you would've slow played it. He's drawing at the nut flush and he know if he makes his flush hes probably going to double up and take down the pot. So he tried to out draw u. It happens. U still had 10 outs on the river. Next time I'm sure you'll slow down.

[otnemem 0]

You got him to do exactly what you wanted him to do - get all his money in as a significant underdog. He just got lucky.Sure you could have bet the pot on the flop, but why? Anyone with the nut flush draw is calling a pot sized bet on this flop, especially at this stage in a tournament. Then you have a big decision on the turn when the scare card hits. If you slow down, he might bluff you off the hand with a K-x or similar. Then there's always the possibility that he's slow playing a flopped straight (though this would be less than optimal on his part, letting a flush draw see the turn). On further consideration, I think he pushes if you bet the pot. Even though he's going to win 1/3 times, you love your position if he pushes into your set. The only hand you're scared of is the J-Q, and even if has this, you have seven outs on the flop and an automatic 10 on the turn...

[chindi 0]

You got him to do exactly what you wanted him to do - get all his money in as a significant underdog. He just got lucky.

Yes.... as was acknowedged the flush draw calling the all-in was pretty loose play. But the all-in at that point was likely considered an attempt to buy the pot which made the A-6 nut flush draw seem pretty good to the caller.

Sure you could have bet the pot on the flop, but why? Anyone with the nut flush draw is calling a pot sized bet on this flop, especially at this stage in a tournament.

That's exactly why. Because a pot-sized gets called by the flush draw and gets re-raised by the flopped straight or the over-pair.

Then you have a big decision on the turn when the scare card hits. If you slow down, he might bluff you off the hand with a K-x or similar. Then there's always the possibility that he's slow playing a flopped straight (though this would be less than optimal on his part, letting a flush draw see the turn).

K-x and the Flopped straight are unlikely to just call the bet on the flop and let the flush draw see the turn for the pot-sized bet. They're more likely to push over the top than the flush draw is... if you bet and they call, then the turn is pretty much a check/fold scenario for me unless I know there's no way he's playing that draw.

On further consideration, I think he pushes if you bet the pot. Even though he's going to win 1/3 times, you love your position if he pushes into your set.

Yes. I love my position IF he pushes into my set. If the OP had bet the pot, the other guy went all-in, and he called? I'd have absolutely nothing negative to say about his play, because in my pov the hands that push there you're generally going to have dominated. So even if the other player then turns up JQs or KK or what have you, I'd think he'd made a good play, and it just didn't pan out.

[Herschel 0]

Thanks all.Lots to think about, and I'm sure I will slow down a little next time (hopefully) I'm in a tourney that late......Thanks again.H

[potpumper43 0]

This slowing down advice is insane. The all in bet was a good one. The 9 10 K flop (with a heart draw) leaves your set very vulnerable. In a cash game making a more reasonable bet is fine but in a tournament you want whats in the middle with no catastrophes. The guy had position on you and a threatening chip stack. You don't want a J or Q to come off cheaply and cost you the pot (he didnt have it but you would have been out of position which would leave you vulnerable to a highjacking). The pot size was already roughly 20% of your stack from what you described. Saying that a smaller bet wouldn't have commited you is folly. You make the smaller bet, you give him the opportunuity to make a play at the pot (in position he might go all in over the top w/ his draw, which you don't want). Say you make the pot-sized bet and are called. Out of position on the turn are you supposed to check and fold when the heart peels off?? Or are you supposed to make another bet and fold if raised (with about 50% of your stack out there holding a set)?? No to both. You may have the best hand (he may have A-J, A-10 off w/ ace of hearts for example).In essence you took any play away from him and forced him to donk all his chips into the pot. You put the utmost pressure on your opponent and made him make the largest possible mistake. In a money gamne you want the flush draw to call. In a tournament you want him to fold his flush draw.

[Herschel 0]

Thanks Pot, makes me feel a little better that one! :-) The main reason why I asked the question is because I feel I'm still relatively new to the game (even though I seem to be doing ok most of the time), but I've never been as gutted to see someone catch as when my opponent did with that draw.I kept asking myself how he could possibly call for all his chips, with pot odds of around evens and draw odds of 2.5/1?For some of his chips (e.g. 10,000), yes, I could understand and would have done the same, but for ALL of them??That's why I wanted to put him to the decision like that, and that's why I went all-in as I was damn sure I was miles ahead in the hand.Anyway, I will put it to bed now, particularly as I recently won a couple of table tourneys. :wink: Thanks again for the advice all, much appreciated.H