game theory

[nutonflop 0]

anyone know a good link to start learning bout this. Is John Nash the only guy? can anybody say anything about what it is and how to us it? (besides just saying "you gotta change gears")

[allinbluff35 0]

2+2

[econ_tim 0]

Is John Nash the only guy?

No, he's not the only guy. John von Neuman is also a big player in game theory. And the modern field is quite large. But a good place to start would be to google "Nash equilibrium" and learn what it means and how it applies to some abstract games. Then maybe look in the relevant chapter of Theory of Poker.

[auspex 0]

Well actually the Theory of Poker would be a good start..The basic theory of poker is this... If an opponent could see your cards, there would be an optimal way to play his hand at each stage of the game, bet, raise, call or fold.For each mistake he makes against your hand you profit.For each mistake you make against his hand he profits.For example:If you have 10 10 preflopand he has AQ preflopThe correct move for him would be to fold (since he is not the favorite)If he calls preflop, or even raises, technically he is making a mistake, and you profit.If he folds he has made the correct play and indirectly profits.Now if an Q comes on the flop, and you still bet out, you are making a mistake, and he profits.This is basically the theory of poker which is why it is so important to learn to read opponents betting patterns as they relate to the texture of the flop. By learning this you can theoretically put you opponents on a certain hand. By doing that you can play "correct poker" based on your interpretation of the hand.What the books really teach are you are how to identify patterns and what to do in certain situations. When you are not sure what your opponent has, this is where pot odds and gut feelings come in to play.Anywas, I suggest picking up the theory of poker, there is a ton of good information in this book.

[Smasharoo 0]

The basic theory of poker is this... Fundemental Therom.In case anyone was going to look it up or something.Worry about game theory when you start playing 30/60 or higher. Prior to that it's utterly useless as it assumes opponents who play close to technically perfectly and you really don't want to be playing them anyway.

[bmwguy525 0]

The basic theory of poker is this...  Fundemental Therom.In case anyone was going to look it up or something.Worry about game theory when you start playing 30/60 or higher.  Prior to that it's utterly useless as it assumes opponents who play close to technically perfectly and you really don't want to be playing them anyway.

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyup. Until then read Small Stakes Hold'Em

[angler 0]

Paul Phillips does as well. Smash is correct though, it doesn't add a lot if you are not playing at a high level.If you can't sleep, read this.http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/game-theory/#Bas

[auspex 0]

The basic theory of poker is this...  Fundemental Therom.In case anyone was going to look it up or something.Worry about game theory when you start playing 30/60 or higher.  Prior to that it's utterly useless as it assumes opponents who play close to technically perfectly and you really don't want to be playing them anyway.

Although it is generally not good practice to disagree with smasharoo, I do disagree.. The fundemental therom of poker helped me start thinking about poker differently and helped me learn to play a lot better even when I was playing limits as low as 4/8 .. I suggest reading it and not putting it in to practice.. but learning and using the knowledge to think about how you play when away from the table.

[Eclypse 0]

Here are some of my recent thoughts on Game Theory:Game Theory, when applied to poker, does NOT give you an automatic advantage over your opponents. However, it does have the ability to take away your opponents’ advantage over you. This is important—many people think that if they could just apply Game Theory to poker they would have an advantage over their opponents. This is usually not the case.If you are better than your opponents, using Game Theory will usually be to your detriment. If you are playing at a table with Paul Phillips, Daniel Negreanu, Phil Ivey, Doyle Brunson, Chip Reese, Barry Greenstein, etc. then, yes, by all means use Game Theory. Game Theory works best when you are heavily out-classed. If you are not beating the game without Game Theory, you aren’t ready for it yet. In other words, if you think the reason you aren’t beating the game is because you don’t know Game Theory, believe me, it’s not.If you are smart enough to understand Game Theory and all its intricacies, you are probably smart enough to understand traditional poker theory enough to kill an above-average poker game. Spend your time learning that instead.Read the Game Theory section of Sklansky’s Theory of Poker. It is as much Game Theory as anyone really needs in poker (unless you are playing with the best players in the world on a consistent basis).If you are interested in Game Theory and how it works, I recommend The Compleat Strategyst (yes, that’s the correct spelling) by J. D. Williams.

[elkang 0]

The basic theory of poker is this...  Fundemental Therom.In case anyone was going to look it up or something.Worry about game theory when you start playing 30/60 or higher.  Prior to that it's utterly useless as it assumes opponents who play close to technically perfectly and you really don't want to be playing them anyway.

Although it is generally not good practice to disagree with smasharoo, I do disagree.. The fundemental therom of poker helped me start thinking about poker differently and helped me learn to play a lot better even when I was playing limits as low as 4/8 .. I suggest reading it and not putting it in to practice.. but learning and using the knowledge to think about how you play when away from the table.

just quit now. you misread his post. again, i warn you. quit now.

[auspex 0]

The basic theory of poker is this...  Fundemental Therom.In case anyone was going to look it up or something.Worry about game theory when you start playing 30/60 or higher.  Prior to that it's utterly useless as it assumes opponents who play close to technically perfectly and you really don't want to be playing them anyway.

Although it is generally not good practice to disagree with smasharoo, I do disagree.. The fundemental therom of poker helped me start thinking about poker differently and helped me learn to play a lot better even when I was playing limits as low as 4/8 .. I suggest reading it and not putting it in to practice.. but learning and using the knowledge to think about how you play when away from the table.

just quit now. you misread his post. again, i warn you. quit now.

I did not misread his post. I am saying that he said to only worry about game theory when you start playing 30/60 .. I think that is rediculous.. you need to think about game theory all of the time if you wish to improve your play...even starting at the lower levels. This helps you to think about mistakes in your play and hopefully correct them. Applying game theory DIRECTLY when playing won't provide much help because as he said, it asumes players play technically correct.quit being a jackass, we are all trying to help.

[Smasharoo 0]

I did not misread his post. I am saying that he said to only worry about game theory when you start playing 30/60 .. I think that is rediculous.. you need to think about game theory all of the time if you wish to improve your play...even starting at the lower levels.No.Poker theory <> Game Theory.

[gadzooks64 0]

The basic theory of poker is this...  Fundemental Therom.In case anyone was going to look it up or something.Worry about game theory when you start playing 30/60 or higher.  Prior to that it's utterly useless as it assumes opponents who play close to technically perfectly and you really don't want to be playing them anyway.

Although it is generally not good practice to disagree with smasharoo, I do disagree.. The fundemental therom of poker helped me start thinking about poker differently and helped me learn to play a lot better even when I was playing limits as low as 4/8 .. I suggest reading it and not putting it in to practice.. but learning and using the knowledge to think about how you play when away from the table.

I agree. The part about Game Theory really helped me to see the need for bluffing and incorporating it into your play.

[harvey 0]

Game Theory is a branch of mathematics devoted to studying decisions and social interactions. It can be used to define strategies in games such as poker. In poker, using game theory to play would mean that you are assigning a value to each decision you make. The decisions in one hand of poker make up the strategy for that hand. You would choose the strategy that,. after analysis, gave you the best possible pay off.Game theory problems can get quite complex, and its robust enough to model all sorts of social interactions. You just need to decide what each player desires out of the interaction, and then mathematically figure how each player will behave to maximize their benefit.. For instance, in poker, your interest may be money, where another player may be playing for excitement. You could analyze hands based on each desire..The one chapter in the Theory of Poker where Game theory is explictly addressed should probably be ignored. It is essentially meaningless, and most people end up using "Optimal Bluffing" and "Optimal Calling" incorrectly anyway. Most of the concepts in the book are based on common game theory results though, and it is one of the best poker books ever written so you should read it for that.---I would use the internet as the primary means to learn about game theory. One resource is Thomas Ferguson's website (chris ferguson's dad). (use google). He has a free game theory text book and several papers (some co-written with Chris ferguson).Gametheory.net has a listing of books and online notes as well. The university of Alberta has a neat website with a bot that uses game theory that you can play in the form of a java app along with lots of game theory information.Barnes n' Noble/Borders usually have 2-3 books on game theory in their math section. Most commonly: Decision's and Games (A pink Dover publishing book), The Complete Strategyst, and some others.If you can find a copy of Poker Strategy: Winning with game theory, its a really cool book.Finally, you can find alot of papers on advanced poker models using google. Or better yet, if you have access to a library with a back catelog of Mathematics Journals, there are tons of poker papers to be found.Also, there supposedly is a book coming out called "The mathematics of Poker" which is supposed to have some pretty revolutionary work according to Matt Matros.And, a book on linear mathematics/matricies would be helpful.

[nutonflop 0]

The basic theory of poker is this... Fundemental Therom.In case anyone was going to look it up or something.Worry about game theory when you start playing 30/60 or higher. Prior to that it's utterly useless as it assumes opponents who play close to technically perfectly and you really don't want to be playing them anyway.

that's where i'm gunning for by the end of the year

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I did not misread his post. I am saying that he said to only worry about game theory when you start playing 30/60 .. I think that is rediculous.. you need to think about game theory all of the time if you wish to improve your play...even starting at the lower levels. No. Poker theory <> Game Theory.

Thank you for letting him off nicely.

[another_rack 0]

http://www.math.ucla.edu/~tom/

[princeof56k 0]

IMO, if you need to use game theory, then you need to do a much better job in table selection. I try to select a table with loose, passive players that tend to do some pretty dumb things. Against these players, I dont see game theory helping too much. After all, if some guy is playing 82 offsuit because he was born in 1982, I dont see how game theory can possibly help you with that.Against competent players who know exactly what they are doing, I can see how you would need game theory. But who would want to even play at a table with competent players.

[nutonflop 0]

Game Theory is a branch of mathematics devoted to studying decisions and social interactions. It can be used to define strategies in games such as poker. In poker, using game theory to play would mean that you are assigning a value to each decision you make. The decisions in one hand of poker make up the strategy for that hand. You would choose the strategy that,. after analysis, gave you the best possible pay off.Game theory problems can get quite complex, and its robust enough to model all sorts of social interactions. You just need to decide what each player desires out of the interaction, and then mathematically figure how each player will behave to maximize their benefit.. For instance, in poker, your interest may be money, where another player may be playing for excitement. You could analyze hands based on each desire..The one chapter in the Theory of Poker where Game theory is explictly addressed should probably be ignored. It is essentially meaningless, and most people end up using "Optimal Bluffing" and "Optimal Calling" incorrectly anyway. Most of the concepts in the book are based on common game theory results though, and it is one of the best poker books ever written so you should read it for that.---I would use the internet as the primary means to learn about game theory. One resource is Thomas Ferguson's website (chris ferguson's dad). (use google). He has a free game theory text book and several papers (some co-written with Chris ferguson).Gametheory.net has a listing of books and online notes as well. The university of Alberta has a neat website with a bot that uses game theory that you can play in the form of a java app along with lots of game theory information.Barnes n' Noble/Borders usually have 2-3 books on game theory in their math section. Most commonly: Decision's and Games (A pink Dover publishing book), The Complete Strategyst, and some others.If you can find a copy of Poker Strategy: Winning with game theory, its a really cool book.Finally, you can find alot of papers on advanced poker models using google. Or better yet, if you have access to a library with a back catelog of Mathematics Journals, there are tons of poker papers to be found.Also, there supposedly is a book coming out called "The mathematics of Poker" which is supposed to have some pretty revolutionary work according to Matt Matros.And, a book on linear mathematics/matricies would be helpful.

that is one of the best responses to post i've ever had. thank you very much! all the rest of you, thanks for telling me i' mnot ready yet. 8) so is it a probabilty set based on your opponents?the examply you gave was kinda off base, mostly i play everyone for money.how bou these examples:::i flop trips, if i bet out your likley to put me on a bluff paying me off heavier.that raise signifies a 33% of poket pair, 33% chance of a big ace, and 33% chance of high suited connectors my king says there is a 80% chance i can beat a pocket pair, a 20% chance i can beat a big ace, and a 66% chance i can beat his suited connector draw... i calllike the pot is 100 if i can bet 25$ and get away with it 26% of the then that is equitable?Can it be applied to anything where sets of moves can be calculated...like 27 bad, aa good?Am i way off base here?

[Smasharoo 0]

Am i way off base here?Yes.Focus on not losing money for now.

[nutonflop 0]

Am i way off base here?Yes.Focus on not losing money for now.

how am i off base? which examples, how aren't pot odds game theory?btw, i'm a winning player, and still up for that HU match

[Smasharoo 0]

how am i off base? which examples, how aren't pot odds game theory?btw, i'm a winning player, and still up for that HU matchI'll get around to it. Don't be in such a hurry to lose.

[nutonflop 0]

how am i off base? which examples, how aren't pot odds game theory?btw, i'm a winning player, and still up for that HU matchI'll get around to it. Don't be in such a hurry to lose.

good.anyway, i'm looking through these feguson papers, and it seems they are just sets. which is what game theory is right? like equitible pot odds. I realize common application is for bluffs and calls against sim. opponents but pot odds are a profitable set. Right?

[Smasharoo 0]

anyway, i'm looking through these feguson papers, and it seems they are just sets. which is what game theory is right? like equitible pot odds. I realize common application is for bluffs and calls against sim. opponents but pot odds are a profitable set. Right?No.Seriously, stop. You're never going to be able to comprehend it.You're not bright enough.Move on.

[nutonflop 0]

anyway, i'm looking through these feguson papers, and it seems they are just sets. which is what game theory is right? like equitible pot odds. I realize common application is for bluffs and calls against sim. opponents but pot odds are a profitable set. Right?No.Seriously, stop. You're never going to be able to comprehend it.You're not bright enough.Move on.

no really, i understand these papers, and again they are systems. stop being smash and give real answer, or let someone else.and again HU or Shut UP :roll:edit: i still think a couple of those examples are close, anyone besides smash?