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opening up your game?


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Hello,I have been in a huge slump as of late...I have allowed myself to accumlate quite a bit of debt in a very short amount of time. I had been slowly moving up in the ranks grinding up from 1/2 to 2/4 to 3/6 to 4/8 and finally to 5/10 and 10/20. Building up a 1400 dollar bankroll in less than a month literally from nothing, just 100 I borrowed from a friend and promptly paid back . My problem is that it has seemed like as I'm trying to see if i can make a living off poker I've been finding myself catching bad beat after bad beat. Just when I thought i had found a winning style of play I've found that no matter what limit you go to you find fish that go to the river everytime, which wouldn't be a problem if they didn't hit their overs or make their gutshot EVERY SINGLE TIME. I have tried tightening up I've tried loosening up I've tried to become more aggressive I've tried to become more passive, I've tried to play more tournament and I've tried to play just cash games, to do something to decrease the amount of my losses to bad beats, but it seems like I just can't find a rhythm. My most recent experiment has been to play tournaments which has been successful to an extent as I have attempted to base my play off that of Dan Harrington an ultra tight aggresive game and have finish in the top 15-20 percent each tournament making the minimum payout or just missing payout most of the time. My problem is that when you play such a tight game you're going to only be beat on bad beats and rundowns, and playing such an aggressive game not getting any reaction to my bets from sandbaggers just either calling or folding, never raising gives me no information on where i stand. It seems like i can only out run bad luck so long in tournaments as I'm constantly trying to take away the odds for people to draw but they draw any way or will call all-in on draws and hit inside straights, and over cards, just absolutley ridiculous draws, but it seems like I always run into two or three a tournament that cripple or eliminate me. What i'm looking for as help to heal my game, or to help me get "luckier" is, what are some good tips on how to open up your game? And, do you have any other ideas, besides taking a break like books to read, websites to check out, I already read 2+2, cardplayer, I have read theory of poker, harrington on hold'em, and super system2......I thought it was just bad luck and bad beats, but with how long this slump has lasted there has to be something missing in my play, even though i play by some of the most conservative standards and play the most aggresive style, utilizing all the traps I've read about...I really need to start generating income again, i would truly appreciate any help...."If it wasn't for luck, I'd win'em all."

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You had a lucky streak and have no idea what you're doing.Take all he money out now.Then start over at .25/.50, Learn how to play. Learn BR management.You're a walking time bomb right now waiting to go broke.

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You had a lucky streak and have no idea what you're doing.Take all he money out now.Then start over at .25/.50, Learn how to play. Learn BR management.You're a walking time bomb right now waiting to go broke.
Lol, gotta love Smash. Short and direct.
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You had a lucky streak and have no idea what you're doing.Take all he money out now.Then start over at .25/.50, Learn how to play. Learn BR management.You're a walking time bomb right now waiting to go broke.
He's right tho....this kinda thing can rattle you hardcore and really put ur BR in a vice....try to keep a clear head, bad beats happen, and try to find a style that fits you, regardless of the beats....super aggressive may not be for you if you're sick of bad beats, the goods dont win every single time, thats part of the game..... :club:
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Concur.From your post it seems you had a rush, it happens. Doesn't mean you're ready to do it for a living.Jumping right in to poker being your source of income, and, though I know personally someone who has gone "poker crazy", went deep into debt finding out he wasn't as good as he thought... kept it up and grinded his way out and actually started playing winning poker, I wouldn't suggest this course of action.Have another job, keep poker as a hobby till you are absolutly cleaning up small limits.... keep the job and move up, crush the next level and up and up.Once you are crushing a limit that you can live off of, work up a *decent bankroll*, 1400 just ain't enough, THEN make the move to playing for a living, when and if you get to that point.

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Spademan,You have really stated it to perfection... I also jumped into this game I thought I was playing enough and knew the game well... I lost a lot when I started... went on a rush got up kept winning then lost it all back I really did want to jump into this as a prime source of income but you have just put it into words what I have been thinking... thanks for the insight. Im doing a lot of research on the game reading a lot of reccomended books (SSHE) aswell as Doyle Brunsons Super System... I also read some book online that I purchased and downloaded I really do hope they help I must stop shooting for the stars and start at square one. Going down to the $1/2 and see if I can move up.Only time and my BR will tell how well of a player I will become.And Smasharoo put it quite nicely too.

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I appreciate your help, just a couple things;1.) Smash- How can u say I don't know what I'm doing? I know how to utilize pot odds, implied odds, expected value, I know how to bluff and when to bluff, i know when to slow play, I know how to use position, you really don't know anything about my poker knowledge, so i wish you would please not make value judgements on my play, it's really not fair to just try to make a fool out of someone genuinely looking for help not to be embarassed, that's not what these forums are for.2.) Isn't it next to impossible to build a bankroll at the lower limits with the number of beats you catch, the inability to get people off pots, and the number of people seeing the flop, turn and river?That leads me to my next question, how do u beat a loose game? I've read you should tighten up, I've read you should loosen up, and I've read you should just avoid the games...I'm confused on the subject...

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I appreciate your help, just a couple things;1.) Smash- How can u say I don't know what I'm doing? I know how to utilize pot odds, implied odds, expected value, I know how to bluff and when to bluff, i know when to slow play, I know how to use position, you really don't know anything about my poker knowledge, so i wish you would please not make value judgements on my play, it's really not fair to just try to make a fool out of someone genuinely looking for help not to be embarassed, that's not what these forums are for.
You have no idea of how to use bankroll management. Smash was correct in his post. Not just because you don't use bankroll management, but also because of what you typed in the rest of your post (see below).
2.) Isn't it next to impossible to build a bankroll at the lower limits with the number of beats you catch, the inability to get people off pots, and the number of people seeing the flop, turn and river?
No. In the 6 months I've played, I've made $1700 as I worked my way up through the limits. It's nowhere near impossible.
That leads me to my next question, how do u beat a loose game? I've read you should tighten up, I've read you should loosen up, and I've read you should just avoid the games...I'm confused on the subject...
Who the hell told you to avoid the games? That person is quite possibly one of the worst people to ever give advice.- Buy SSHE- Learn bankroll management- Stick to both of them.
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First of all considering 1400 a sufficient bankroll to play 10/20 is ridiculous. While turning 100 into 1400 is clearly admirable, you are obviously playing a big rush and variance is evening itself out. Now you can't handle the swings because the money is way out of your league. In limit you are counting on being profitable over the LONG RUN. You don't mind losing 5 out of 6 times with a hand because you only need to win it once to be profitable. At the limits you are playing you will go broke before the odds even themselves out. That's bad poker.I don't care how many poker terms you are familiar with or understand, you are begging to go broke playing out of your BR like that. Smasharoo is a jerk but he is absolutely right in this case. Your second question there means you clearly have not properly read books on limit holdem. If everyone played tight there would be no money to be made by anyone. Loose games are the MOST profitable and most beatable, provided you are playing right. That's not my opinion, that's a mathmatical fact. Read SSHE, go play 1/2 until you get your head straightened out. It took Howard Lederer years to go from playing for coins to playing with actual dollar bills. You think you can get to 10/20 in a month?

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2.) Isn't it next to impossible to build a bankroll at the lower limits with the number of beats you catch, the inability to get people off pots, and the number of people seeing the flop, turn and river?
this is why smash said you have no idea what you're doing...this is the exact reason it is ridiculously easy to crush low limits
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All these replies are 100% correct, at this time you need to stop worrying about pot odds, implied odds and anything else for the moment. Bankroll is just so important. I played all those games you mention and went broke.Do what I did and what smash said, get back down to $.50/1 games and take it from there. Your trying to do too much too soon, it just wont happen. I've been playing the smaller games now and I tell you this, you will enjoy building slowly than losing quickly. Of course your going to get calling stations who will call you til the end and get lucky now an then but those people are now my best friends.You've asked for advice, dont be stubborn and not take it. Get down to the smaller levels and then let your Poker knowledge get you back again.

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All these replies are 100% correct, at this time you need to stop worrying about pot odds, implied odds and anything else for the moment. Bankroll is just so important. I played all those games you mention and went broke.Do what I did and what smash said, get back down to $.50/1 games and take it from there. Your trying to do too much too soon, it just wont happen. I've been playing the smaller games now and I tell you this, you will enjoy building slowly than losing quickly. Of course your going to get calling stations who will call you til the end and get lucky now an then but those people are now my best friends.You've asked for advice, dont be stubborn and not take it. Get down to the smaller levels and then let your Poker knowledge get you back again.

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just because you've read books and went on a huge rush doesn't mean that you know how to play poker now. Its easy to read the books but quite different to apply them to the game. Thats why seeing tons and tons of hands will help your game out so much and since you don't have the bankroll to play 10/20 just move down in limits or...continue on the way you are going and just go broke. I"m not trying to be mean either, you sound like you have all the tools..now you just need to get some experiance and it doesn't look like you can afford to pay for that experiance at the 10/20 level. Good Luck and hopefully you use some BR management.

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Loose-passive games (i.e. full of limpers and chasers) are the absolute best games to make money at. But you can also make money at tight tables (much less, however) if you are adroit at attempting bluffs and blind steals.

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Here are a few tips all poker players should know:1. You need to know how to manage you money properly so you don't go broke. If you want to make a living at poker, you need to have 300-500 BB as a bankroll. Thus with $1,400, you should be playing 2/4, or if you want to push it, 3/6. Here is the math:1400/4=3501400/6=233.3.2. Grinding it out means a slow a steady climb in limits. One month is not grinding it out. Even if you have been playing for one year, going from 1/2 to 10/20 is bad bankroll management, even more so if you play 10/20 with $1,400. Hell, if you can lose $1,400 in one bad night playing 10/20, then you don't have a deep enough bankroll to substain setbacks.3. While bad beats do occur, they are not the entire reason you are losing money. With a good bankroll, your skill should be able to compensate for the bad beats over time. You shouldn't have lost your bankroll due to bad beats.4. If you fell like you are playing bad, get out of the game you are playing. If you think you can get your money back, you will likely lose more if you are not focused.If you had a proper bankroll and played within the 300-500 BB, this never would of occured.Lastly, listen to Smash.

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Lastly, if you can't beat the lower limits, than how are you going to beat better, more skilled players? Don't let you poker ego get in the way of making smart choices.

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You had a lucky streak and have no idea what you're doing.Take all he money out now.Then start over at .25/.50,  Learn how to play.  Learn BR management.You're a walking time bomb right now waiting to go broke.
Yeah man...Smash is your best friend....listen to what he said...take it to heart.
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Smash said you don't have any idea what you are doing because he read your post. Anyone playing 10/20 on $1400 has no idea what they are doing. You said you read Super System....did you skip right over that part where it says you should have 300 times the big blind to play in a game? Re-read these books and actually pay attention to what they say. I don't mean to come off as an ass but knowing about pot odds, implied odds, expectation, etc. does NOT make you a good poker player. Using these factors to the highest advantage makes you a good poker player. Lastly, if you can't beat a .50/1 game because people are sucking out on you "EVERY SINGLE TIME" you damn sure can't beat a 10/20 game with people who actually have a clue what they are doing. Read Small Stakes Hold Em (SSHE) (and I don't mean just once). Use the tools it gives you and don't be in such a rush to get to 10/20.I hate when I post something and while I'm typing it someone says the exact same thing and beats me to the board :evil:

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Would you like my e-mail address you I can give you all the information you need?P.S.: Is it O.K. to call the BB in a 2/4 game with K-10s in mid/late postion (two off the button) with three limpers?

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Spademan,You have really stated it to perfection... I also jumped into this game I thought I was playing enough and knew the game well... I lost a lot when I started... went on a rush got up kept winning then lost it all back I really did want to jump into this as a prime source of income but you have just put it into words what I have been thinking... thanks for the insight. Im doing a lot of research on the game reading a lot of reccomended books (SSHE) aswell as Doyle Brunsons Super System... I also read some book online that I purchased and downloaded I really do hope they help I must stop shooting for the stars and start at square one. Going down to the $1/2 and see if I can move up.Only time and my BR will tell how well of a player I will become.And Smasharoo put it quite nicely too.
Exactly. I started on UB 4 months ago with 50 bucks. That was my bankroll. When I lost it my wife and I agreed that I would not deposit any more money. In the first three weeks at the .50/1.00 limit tables I tripled my money. Then, in five days I blew it all the way down to $12.38. I was frustrated. My A-10 thru A-2 offsuits were no longer hitting. I had read Phil Helmuth's book so I had any idea of what premium hands to play, but I figured adding some marginal hands and downright crap hands was OK. Hey I was doing good with them. Then reality hit and I almost busted out. I reread Phil's book and read any Hold 'Em strategy I could get my hands on. I also came back to FCP and read any post dealing with strategy I had time for. To make this long story short, I have now worked my BR to just over $91 playing at the .25/.50 tables. I play premium hands and only marginal hands in position. I still take bad beats by fish but I know that in the long run they will be broke and I will still be playing. Thank to DN for having such a great site and all the poster that have given me advice on how to improve my game.Thanks Orville
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Dear Smash(aroo):Seeing as you do not have any of my personal information (unless you have hacked into my credit card online), would you like me to send you a private message so you can get that check in the mail to me? Any amount is fine, but if you don't know what to send, a blank check is greatThanks, Jdr999

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