why are the fish raising so much preflop?

[Evenflown 0]

I've been grinding out recently on PP's 6-max $25 NLHL tables(the fishing is phenomenal there) and I can't really complain except for one thing. I am constantly finding that many people at this level are opening up with bets of $2 or more preflop with a blind structure of .10/.25 Usually there is two or more people that bet like this at almost every table I'm on. I suppose it's great if I have a great hand, but I like to see flops with a lot of different marginal hands, but with such big bets no one else is calling and I hardly ever get the odds to call myself. Anyone have any insight on to why so many people are betting so much preflop? Other than the obvious that they have no idea what they are doing.

[TS Clark 0]

Are these people raising with decent hands? Maybe they are tired of getting sucked out on by people with marginal to bad starting hands who catch a lucky flop. They figure a sizable raise will protect their hand (it's not a particularly great philosophy in a low-blind ring game, but, hey, most philosophies aren't that great).Or, as you say, they could just be morons who don't know anything about poker other than what they see at a final table of the WPT and think they are supposed to come in with a big raise for every pot (as sometimes happens when they get 2-3 handed in a NLH game).Whatever the reason, when you play at table like this, you just need to make an adjustment in your play. Tighten up your hand selection. Or, you can splash around with your marginal holdings, try and catch a big hand, then bust these people with suited connectors, small pocket pairs, etc.. This way creates more variance for you (since you are having to call pre-flop raises with mediocre hands), but can result in some big pots if you play well post-flop.

[dms26 3]

because a standard raise of .75 gets nobody out of the pot. They don't want you to have cheap flops, makes sense to me. And because some people still call those raises with A5offsuit.

[TS Clark 0]

because a standard raise of .75 gets nobody out of the pot. They don't want you to have cheap flops, makes sense to me. And because some people still call those raises with A5offsuit.

DMS makes a good point here. If you can make these kinds of disproportionate raises and still get callers with bad hands, why not make them. If no one is calling and you're winning the blinds only with your QQ-AA, then this probably isn't smart ina ring game. But if people will call you with junk -- both before and after the flop -- then why not do it?

[Meatwad 0]

yea it's all a standard isolation bet from my experience at pp $25 NL under $2 you invite a lot more bad beats. but i remember i had some guy call a $2 pfr raise with K6 diamonds still because they were suited of course and cracked my pocket kings with running d's. he tried to actually apologize to me in chat which got me more mad than the beat.

[Forbidden Void 0]

I had a similar question about NLHE play a while back, and was referred to the Smash method for NL. Only play pocket pairs and Ax suited, and move in when you hit a set or the nut flush.I swore it couldn't be that easy.I was so wrong.Playing 1/2 NL on Pokerstars (Max Buy $200) I have consistently been making decent money almost every single day. The worst part for the players on the table? When they make a big bet preflop with AK or 1010, and I have one of my calling hands, I still call. Because I only play a hand every other round or so, I can afford it. And when I hit my set of 8's on the flop to their TPTK, they get all pissy about how I made a bad play.If you want to make money playing against fish, you have to play with fishproof tactics. I don't win every hand when I play, but I win most of them now. Tight play, combined with aggressive betting on your selected hands = good profit.I haven't tried this strategy much in higher limits, so I couldn't say if it would work for a $600 3/6 game or beyond that, however for the $25 game you're playing it's perfect.Trying to play fancy gets you in trouble more time than it's worth. Find something similar to this strategy that works all the time, and go for it... this one's good because you can call those insane starting bets when you have the right starting hand.

[Socrates 0]

Sounds like you need to tighten up and adjust your game, it's easy to make money there. While it may seem like a large raise, in comparison its really not. Most preflop raises in live 1/2NL game will be about $15-20.

[WaffleMcHat 0]

I had a similar question about NLHE play a while back, and was referred to the Smash method for NL. Only play pocket pairs and Ax suited, and move in when you hit a set or the nut flush.

I hope this is a joke. You are losing tons of money by not playing premium hands that arent pocket pairs. I play 50$ NL on pacific poker and I make tons of money with hands like AK,AQ, and KQ as well as suited connectors. I am not saying this method isnt profitable but I think it could be more profitable if you loosened up some.

[AcidJoe 0]

I do play a modified Smash with great success. Actually according to poker tracker one of my best hands is AKo. But I think it's because if you raised with it then the A or K hits people put you on trips unless of course the board is flushing or straightening then it's almost impossible to get people out. Smash's strategy will work but you better multi table large or boredom will set in. And I don't raise the all in (if i'm first raiser) with AA or KK like he recommends but will certainly move all in if the pot is large enough to justify making the move. Losing a buy in on the second hand when a large stack with 99 calls your AA and wins just didn't seem worth it.

[WaffleMcHat 0]

I guess I never thought about multi tabling.I can see it being a feasible play style if you are playing several tables at once and unable to observe players as easily.Does anyone have a URL to a post that describes his style in depth?If not can anyone elaborate some more? Anyone know what the avg bb/100 is in 50$ nl using it?

[Bohunkas 0]

I had a similar question about NLHE play a while back, and was referred to the Smash method for NL. Only play pocket pairs and Ax suited, and move in when you hit a set or the nut flush.

Sounds like a variation on solid tight play to me... plus there's the wildcard aspect of someone occasionally thinking you're a bot.

[Forbidden Void 0]

I do play a modified Smash with great success. Actually according to poker tracker one of my best hands is AKo. But I think it's because if you raised with it then the A or K hits people put you on trips unless of course the board is flushing or straightening then it's almost impossible to get people out. Smash's strategy will work but you better multi table large or boredom will set in. And I don't raise the all in (if i'm first raiser) with AA or KK like he recommends but will certainly move all in if the pot is large enough to justify making the move. Losing a buy in on the second hand when a large stack with 99 calls your AA and wins just didn't seem worth it.

Multi tabling is a must for me. But I only play two or three at a time. In all actuality though, the payoff for this style is far better in live NL games. Where a standard raise is 7x-8x the blinds, people seem to have a hard time letting go even if they think they might be beat after the flop.

[bdams19 0]

I do play a modified Smash with great success. Actually according to poker tracker one of my best hands is AKo. But I think it's because if you raised with it then the A or K hits people put you on trips unless of course the board is flushing or straightening then it's almost impossible to get people out. Smash's strategy will work but you better multi table large or boredom will set in. And I don't raise the all in (if i'm first raiser) with AA or KK like he recommends but will certainly move all in if the pot is large enough to justify making the move. Losing a buy in on the second hand when a large stack with 99 calls your AA and wins just didn't seem worth it.

Are you suggesting folding aces preflop to nines?

[SiliconSlim 0]

I can't seem to make money playing NL no matter what I do, so will y'all stop talking bout it like it's easy as pie?

[hexag1 0]

can anyone here give a complete description of the smasharoo method?PPs and Ax sooted, but what do you do preflop?, limp?from EP? do you ever move in preflop?

[Evenflown 0]

Some great advice guys, thanks. I too am interested in smashs style, can anyone give more details?

[TheTorpedo 0]

Since they ARE fish. Large raises is actually one of the tools at their disposal. They cannot play well post flop so if they are in let it be with a large raise.

[pokerplayer24 0]

A large raise doesnt mean they are fish. If i was playing 25 nl and had a good hand i'd make a raise to 2$, why because you'll most likely get called by shit and be table to take it down after the flop.As far as smash's method goes when he said that he was basically joking if not I really dont think you can be a successful player doing it.What happens when you call a raise with 88 and all unders flop and the guy bets out?What happens when you have to call bets all the way with a A high flush draw.What happens when you never get paid off with AA or KK.

[Bijjy 0]

Maybe you should just push back every hand. Id put em all in for the full 10$. I know that can be expensive tho. (sw)

[otnemem 0]

I suppose it's great if I have a great hand, but I like to see flops with a lot of different marginal hands, but with such big bets no one else is calling and I hardly ever get the odds to call myself.

You answered your own question.BTW, if you ever play B+M 1-2 NL, it's fairly common for an opening raise to be around $12, which is not 8X but pretty close.

[Cadam11 0]

I am one of those people that raise to 2 dollars before flop. I had good hands cracked by fish that want to call everything. I dont always raise 2 dollars with everything depends on position.

[justblaze 0]

oh man, this is why i love this forum. "i dont understand why these total fish keep raising preflop so i cant sneak in with marginal hands. I like to play loose and im getting killed because they keep forcing me to pay for flops! i mean, how much do they suck!"perhaps they arent fish. perhaps they realize that all kinds of weak players will call the 75c raises with junk and draw out. What you are describing sounds like a ludicrously easy game to beat. Only play premium hands, and push back at them when they bet. fish.

[Cadam11 0]

oh man, this is why i love this forum. "i dont understand why these total fish keep raising preflop so i cant sneak in with marginal hands. I like to play loose and im getting killed because they keep forcing me to pay for flops! i mean, how much do they suck!"perhaps they arent fish. perhaps they realize that all kinds of weak players will call the 75c raises with junk and draw out. What you are describing sounds like a ludicrously easy game to beat. Only play premium hands, and push back at them when they bet. fish.

Good explanation justblaze, pretty much what I really wanted to say.

[THIR13EN 0]

Really, I do not think these people are fish. It is smart to bet big like that so when a fishy finally bites with his big AJs, the better will be in position to take a larger pot off the fishy when the board comes out ragged. Now, true you can sit back and wait for aces (which no one will pay you off for) or start getting in there and playing back at them with raises or start calling them with your less than premium hands. It will seem like you have your big AJs, but you have 47s. So really, you get to play two hands. When the flop shows big cards bet into his bluff, when the board hits your straight check to him and let him do all the betting. Simple strategy and it will be cheap to fine tune it, in the lower limit tables.GOOD LUCK AND DONT BE AFRAID TO PLAY BACK AT TABLE BULLIES

[cortanpeter 0]

I love flopping a set of deuces. PT says its my most profitable hand. Go figure.