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aa and kk are just pairs!!


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I hear lots of complaints about how someone lost with AA or KK and other semi-good/weak hands. AA and KK are just pairs. A pair is the second lowest ranked hand. There are lots of ways to beat a pair. A bad beat worth mentioning is one of the top ranked hands losing, like quads or a boat. The problem is of course that when we have pocket aces, or trip kings or aces, we assume we are going to win, so it seems unfair when we don't. Those are good hands, but not great hands.Even pocket AK that catches AK2 on the flop, however strong the 2 pair looks, is beat by pocket dueces. - Koroshiya =============="One of the most common errors in Holdem, much more so than other games, is to cling to hands that look good long after they turn bad. (And then of course, tell bad beat stories about how these "great hands" lost.)One of the clearest signs of a player who will never rise above the mediocre is the inability to laydown pocket pairs after the flop -- and more specifically, hands like QQ on an AT9 flop. You see it all the time, players calling off all their chips with only a prayer and the worst straightforward draw in poker -- trying to spike an underpair two-outer. In limit Hold'em this is sin enough, but in No Limit it borders on lunacy. Still, spend fifteen minutes observing the one or two table mini-tournaments available online at the various cardrooms and you likely will see this exact phenomenon happen at least once.And the funny thing is, many of these same people will be able to lay down KJ on an AJ8 flop but will call all their money with QQ. When facing a bet, the difference in current value between these two hands in miniscule, but the somehow the prettier QQ gets players to act like dopes. It's just "so good" looking. Frankly, I prefer the prettiness of how good chips look in front of me in contrast to how they look being pushed to my opponent."-Steve BadgerFrom : http://www.playwinningpoker.com/articles/03/18.html

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Wow, that's really great logic, you ****ing tool. So a bad beat is only when the odds are astronomically against one hand winning and it does? A bad beat is a bad beat is a bad beat. Having a "weak" hand like aces get cracked by 9-10s might not be something worth writing about, but it's still a bad beat. I'll take better than 4:1 odds any day, but that one time out of five that I lose is still a bad beat.A bad beat is certainly not only when quads lose to a royal or similar... Only a stupid ass noob fish would say something so utterly irritating.And you probably thought you said something profound. AA = best starting hand in poker. If this is a "weak" hand, which is strong? People like you really ****ing irritate me, but you do summarize in a post what 90% of FCPers are like...

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I agree, I love how you call A's and K's semi-good to weak hands. You are easily a 3-1 favorite against any other hand. So when you lose with them, its a bad beat no matter what the other guy had.

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The guy still makes a good point, that a lot of people will cling to a good pocket pair with overcards on the board. Why is it that some feltcher queers feel they have to jump all over a guy who is just pointing out the obvious ? Oh Yea, you're 15 and hiding behind daddys new monitor !!

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I hear lots of complaints about how someone lost with AA or KK and other semi-good/weak hands. AA and KK are just pairs. A pair is the second lowest ranked hand. There are lots of ways to beat a pair. A bad beat worth mentioning is one of the top ranked hands losing, like quads or a boat.
The fact that he says AA or KK are semi-good/weak hands, discredits anything else he has to say about anything dealing with poker.
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The guy still makes a good point, that a lot of people will cling to a good pocket pair with overcards on the board. Why is it that some feltcher queers feel they have to jump all over a guy who is just pointing out the obvious ? Oh Yea, you're 15 and hiding behind daddys new monitor !!
I'm 15 and hiding behind daddy's computer? What do you want me to do, challenge him to a duel? Meet him at the flagpole to fight? What the **** is wrong with you?Plus, I'm on his ass because his post was ****ing ridiculous. Of course premium hands get drawn out on and beat. It doesn't make them weak hands. Of course you need to know when to get away from big pairs, but this has nothing to do with bad beats...
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I figured the comment that AA and KK are weak or only semi-good would get some pin-head's panties in a wad. But since I have started viewing high pocket pairs as less than "the best, most F***ing fantastic hands I could ever ask for", I've found them easier to lay down when they are probably beat.The point is that AA or KK in the pocket is only a great hand until the flop, then you have to re-evaluate. You really don't know how good they are until you see the next three cards.I understand the odds and the value of the cards, but pocket AA is a great hand if you are only playing with two cards each.KoroshiyaP.S. Of course, you know you are dealing with the finest and brightest when they have to resort to personal attacks, name calling and bragging about how much better player they are than someone they've never met or played with. - Take that hippie - four more years!

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P.S. Of course, you know you are dealing with the finest and brightest when they have to resort to personal attacks, name calling and bragging about how much better player they are than someone they've never met or played with. - Take that hippie - four more years!
If you took me pointing out your mentor's tournament record as some sort of brag, you're obviously not very analytical. I think it was pretty clear that I was pointing out Badger's lack of credentials rather than the value of my own.And I should point something out here - most people who write about their bad beats are not writing about times when A :club: A :D pushed on a 9 :D -10 :) -J :) board. If someone posted this as a bad beat, when they got drawn out by A :) Q :D, people wouldn't be consoling them for the horrendous beat...This post maybe belonged in general, where you could enlighten the crowd as to how you know how to get away from big pairs. Everyone would be dazzled...
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This post maybe belonged in general, where you could enlighten the crowd as to how you know how to get away from big pairs. Everyone would be dazzled...
To the definition of a bad beat: I read post after post in forums, and hear the same complaints at the tables, from people crying about how they got beat with AA or KK. I choose to raise my standard for a "bad beat" to something a little more unexpected and more unlikely. Again, in an effort to stop regarding good starting hands as winning hands.I guess exaggerations help make your lame argument seem justified, but Badger is hardly my "mentor". I quoted him what he had to say, which is good general advice for any player. You are seem to be too much of a hot head to be very good at any game. At least you'll never go broke because you'll always have that chip on your shoulder.KoroshiyaP.S. I'll try to post in areas where a difference in opinion won't upset you.
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Oh, and by the way, your quote is from a guy with the following tournament record....http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=4463I've made more money in tournaments this year than he has, so maybe you should start quoting me from now on. And by the way, yes, that is $715.
Not a bad record actually. A WSOP Bracelet and over $200K in career earnings. And that event he won in 1999... he beat Phil Hellmuth (5th), Ted Forrest (9th) and Daniel Negreanu (12th).I think we know who the knob is.K
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Oh, and by the way, your quote is from a guy with the following tournament record....http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=4463I've made more money in tournaments this year than he has, so maybe you should start quoting me from now on. And by the way, yes, that is $715.
Not a bad record actually. A WSOP Bracelet and over $200K in career earnings. And that event he won in 1999... he beat Phil Hellmuth (5th), Ted Forrest (9th) and Daniel Negreanu (12th).I think we know who the knob is.K
So let's see. First of all, what happens when we take away his one big score (it's a great feat, but we're talking long term results here). That makes $29, 285. Over 4 years. Wow, that's certainly a great record. Even with the win in '99, over six years his total tournament earnings come out somewhere around $35K a year. Now I know nothing about the guy. Maybe he kills the side games. All I'm saying is that excluding a remarkable win in '99, the guy's made under 7.5K in tournaments per year since then (averaged). And the tourneys he's credited with are like ones that run every day at the Taj in AC. These one's just have a fancy name. And knob is the hackiest insult ever.
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So let's see. ... All I'm saying is that excluding a remarkable win in '99, the guy's made under 7.5K in tournaments per year since then (averaged).
With all this time to devote to put-downs of another player, I'm surprised you haven't taken the time to point us to your statistics. I'm sure your WSOP bracelets and career stats are quite impressive and qualify you to be critical of anyone's achievements.
And knob is the hackiest insult ever.
But appropriate none the less. Someone this petty and vain cannot possibly be any good at poker.K
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With all this time to devote to put-downs of another player, I'm surprised you haven't taken the time to point us to your statistics. I'm sure your WSOP bracelets and career stats are quite impressive and qualify you to be critical of anyone's achievements.
Right. Because I couldn't say that Manute Bol was an absolutely horrible basketball player without pointing out my own basketball stats, right? You're such a hypocritical douche. Two posts ago you were accusing me of bragging for saying I've made more money from tournaments this year than your source. Now you're asking me to highlight my stats. (And for the record, I won one $20 Poker Room $15K guaranteed and made $3000. That's been my only notable win this year.)
Someone this petty and vain cannot possibly be any good at poker.
Yeah, I can see how the two have anything to do with each other. First of all, there was nothing petty or vain about my post. I think you should recheck your dictionary. If you were training to be a baseball player, who would you rather take advice from: someone like Pete Rose, or maybe Tommy LaSorda - someone who's been a baseball player and a coach for their entire career, or would you ask an elementary school little league coach? Do you see the comparison? One is wholly qualified to answer your questions, the other's advice you might take with a grain of salt. I'm not sure how to approach the "vain" issue, as you seem to change your song in every post. Either I'm bragging for saying that I've made more than a whopping $715 this year, or I'm being a hypocrite because I don't have the tournament stats to point out anyone else's fledgeling success.And furthermore, what does pettiness or vanity have to do with poker? How could you possibly correlate either of these two attributes with success, especially in something like poker where neither play any role whatsoever? If anything, you could probably argue that many successful tournament pros are overly vain and enjoy seeing their fat faces on television. So what does this even mean? I'm dying to see you draw a comparison between vanity, pettiness, and poker. Really, I want to know...By the way, I'm fairly convinced at this point that you are Steve Badger.
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Someone this petty and vain cannot possibly be any good at poker.
Your honor, I submit Phil Hellmuth as exhibit A.
Phil is vain, but not petty. And when he presents himself as a better player than someone else, he has the accomplishments to back it up. Otnemem, for reasons unclear to anyone without a PhD is psychology, belittled Steve Badger's credentials and presented himself as a more accomplished player. Two facts remain clear 1) Badger gives good advice in the article I quoted and 2) he has accomplished more than Ot-dick. The reason I suspect Ot-dick can't be much good at poker is primarily that he has little emotional control. In this thread he has gone off the map, ... make that off the planet, over next to nothing. Imagine what he does when he starts steaming!Steve's piece on getting away from strong starting hands that turn weak is a good one. Who knows why this douche would take go off on him, or on me for that matter? Better still, who cares? I suspect Ot-dick is the guy I played at a NL table last week. He showed up at the casino with all the WPT gear. You know the type - shades, baggy jacket, 3-day stubble, floppy hat, big headphones and c-o-c-k-y attitude. He jumps in, going all-in frequently, pushing people out of pots and sucking out a few wins. After about an hour I took all his chips. All he could do was mumble "nice hand" as he made his way to the exit door.No more time for this fool.K
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Nownow, no need to get all personal and stuff. I think what the trouble is was the SB used the example of QQ on a AJ8 flop. He wasn't talking about AA or KK on a QT4 flop. True, even AA or KK can turn to crap, but you went a step farther than he did in his example, and it's hard to agree with just taking what SB said. I see your point, but you took a simple truth into the range of arguability. It's just much, much harder to tell when you're beaten when you have an overpair.

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...It's just much, much harder to tell when you're beaten when you have an overpair.
Not always. I see players get married to a big over pair all the time and play it to the river when it is pretty clear they are beat.i.e., you get AA (or any big pair) in the pocket and the flop comes 336... Any bet, raise or reraise from either blind means you are in trouble. But how many players will lay down AA with those under cards on the board? If you get too happy with your rockets or cowboys, you can get sucked into playing on, against all reason. Against any likely OE straight draw, flush draw in a suit opposite of your cards, any pair on the board, any aggression against your bet or raise is clearly, at best, a yellow light situation. If you allow yourself to get too excited about AA or KK before the flop, you may not think clearly once you see the board and subsequent action. Those are good pairs, but still just pairs. That is my only point.Koroshiya
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