alf13 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 It is not best hand poker...they are not playing a full handed ring game. THEY ARE Playing 7 STUD HI heads Up...Huge difference.So we just throw pot odds, pot manipulation, equity, and all such basic poker concepts out the window?Cool.Done arguing by the way. The Day 1 thread got polluted with an argument just as retarded as this one.I've got a black helicopter waiting for me. :wall: Where in my post did I say that you throw out all those things?You really come off like you have no idea what HU poker is about...And I am done arguing as well as you seem to have ZERO grasp of anything that has been posted about in this thread.You just read what you want to read....even when it's not there. Link to post Share on other sites
led 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 If he's down 2-0 after this match (as was the case being considered by the above poster) then Barry will only need to win 4 out of the next 7 matches to win 6 out of 9 for the series. In independent events there is no such thing as being "due" for a win. So if in fact Barry wins the first two matches then that won't make it more likely for Daniel to in the next one. If anything it will make him less likely due to lacking confidence, being stuck $1 million dollars and Barry getting to choose the next game to play. ...It would be tough to show independence of events, whether hand-to-hand, day-to-day, match-to-match, etc. If the lacking of confidence and the hurt from losing will at all affect a future match and come even in small part because of a previous match, then (pure) independence is not there.You're right of course and I originally hesitated to use the word independent there (I agree that I shouldn't have). I was trying to dispute the claim by one poster that just because someone predicted Barry was going to win the matches 6-3 (assuming that DN doesn't make a comeback in this match at which point he'll be down 2-0) that he was implying that Barry is a 2:1 favourite. That is an absurd claim. I will say that if DN does end up being down 2-0 after this match (I hope not) then if anything he will be less likely to win the next match than he would be if he was leading. Also, Daniel seems like a pretty stubborn guy so I believe that if he loses 4 straight (which definitely doesn't prove anything about poker other than variance) then he will probably still believe he's a favourite and keep plugging away at it to his detriment. Who cares if he's a 55% favourite in all the matches anyways since he still has a reasonable chance of going broke when his bankroll is maybe 20X the match stakes.Right on. I was browsing through pretty quick and hadn't carefully read the post(s) to which you were responding. Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I can't tell by reading all the arguments what actually happened last night? Did they finish the match? Did DN lose his lead? Where can I find an update? Link to post Share on other sites
jooka 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I can't tell by reading all the arguments what actually happened last night? Did they finish the match? Did DN lose his lead? Where can I find an update?first post in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I can't tell by reading all the arguments what actually happened last night? Did they finish the match? Did DN lose his lead? Where can I find an update?first post in this thread.Ha thanks, I'm an idiot.. I read that post last night before the updates had been edited in.. I kept coming back to this thread and not finding anything further... now I know. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites
Sundevils21 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 How many of you actually play poker?If you do, try applying the term "variance" to the DN/BG headsup matches.If you still can't, I'll go find my box of crayons and draw a picture to explain it.I had put the over/under on somebody playing the "variance" card at 40 posts.......Time to pony up.Let me ask you something....do you even know what variance is? I think he knows. You should reread this post...I think losing ONE MILLION dollars to somebody (If he loses this challenge) in one particular game Heads Up constitutes an inferiority to the winner in that particular game....Heads Up of course.I'm suprised at the number of people getting this wrong. If you lose 2 matches in a row(btw, DN hasn't lost the second) that doesn't mean you are inferior. Regardless of the amount you've lost to them(1 mil or 50cents).So let me get this straight. If DN comes back to win this match then they will be considered EXACTLY the same in Stud, right? I mean after all, they played a whole 2 matches and each of them would have won once. Link to post Share on other sites
cdddc75 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I think he knows. You should reread this post...I think losing ONE MILLION dollars to somebody (If he loses this challenge) in one particular game Heads Up constitutes an inferiority to the winner in that particular game....Heads Up of course. I'm suprised at the number of people getting this wrong. If you lose 2 matches in a row(btw' date=' DN hasn't lost the second) that doesn't mean you are inferior. Regardless of the amount you've lost to them(1 mil or 50cents).So let me get this straight. If DN comes back to win this match then they will be considered EXACTLY the same in Stud, right? I mean after all, they played a whole 2Travis 1, Donks 0 Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 How many of you actually play poker?If you do' date=' try applying the term "variance" to the DN/BG headsup matches.If you still can't' date=' I'll go find my box of crayons and draw a picture to explain it.[/quote'']I had put the over/under on somebody playing the "variance" card at 40 posts.......Time to pony up.Let me ask you something....do you even know what variance is? I think he knows. You should reread this post...I think losing ONE MILLION dollars to somebody (If he loses this challenge) in one particular game Heads Up constitutes an inferiority to the winner in that particular game....Heads Up of course. I'm suprised at the number of people getting this wrong. If you lose 2 matches in a row(btw' date=' DN hasn't lost the second) that doesn't mean you are inferior. Regardless of the amount you've lost to them(1 mil or 50cents).So let me get this straight. If DN comes back to win this match then they will be considered EXACTLY the same in Stud, right? I mean after all, they played a whole 2Travis....did you even read the posts?Variance is not being discussed. Who is better is not being discussed.What is being discussed is WHO has an edge in a particular game HU.....:wall: Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I think he knows. You should reread this post...I think losing ONE MILLION dollars to somebody (If he loses this challenge) in one particular game Heads Up constitutes an inferiority to the winner in that particular game....Heads Up of course. I'm suprised at the number of people getting this wrong. If you lose 2 matches in a row(btw' date=' DN hasn't lost the second) that doesn't mean you are inferior. Regardless of the amount you've lost to them(1 mil or 50cents).So let me get this straight. If DN comes back to win this match then they will be considered EXACTLY the same in Stud' date=' right? I mean after all, they played a whole 2Travis 1, Donks 0People that can read: 7cdddc75= 0Please read before you spout off.BTW...only a DONK tries to start a variance discussion and starts to try to start a Poker theory discussion when we are discussing HU play.Next thing you will say is that Daniel's Isolation plays aren't working.... Link to post Share on other sites
Sundevils21 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 I think he knows. You should reread this post...I think losing ONE MILLION dollars to somebody (If he loses this challenge) in one particular game Heads Up constitutes an inferiority to the winner in that particular game....Heads Up of course. I'm suprised at the number of people getting this wrong. If you lose 2 matches in a row(btw' date=' DN hasn't lost the second) that doesn't mean you are inferior. Regardless of the amount you've lost to them(1 mil or 50cents).So let me get this straight. If DN comes back to win this match then they will be considered EXACTLY the same in Stud' date=' right? I mean after all, they played a whole 2Travis 1, Donks 0I'm not trying to put anyone down or anything. I'm just sayin that no concrete: superior- inferior; favorite- dog; shark- donkey, type of statement can be made after 2 matches. Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I think he knows. You should reread this post...I think losing ONE MILLION dollars to somebody (If he loses this challenge) in one particular game Heads Up constitutes an inferiority to the winner in that particular game....Heads Up of course. I'm suprised at the number of people getting this wrong. If you lose 2 matches in a row(btw' date=' DN hasn't lost the second) that doesn't mean you are inferior. Regardless of the amount you've lost to them(1 mil or 50cents).So let me get this straight. If DN comes back to win this match then they will be considered EXACTLY the same in Stud' date=' right? I mean after all' date=' they played a whole 2Travis 1, Donks 0I'm not trying to put anyone down or anything. I'm just sayin that no concrete: superior- inferior; favorite- dog; shark- donkey, type of statement can be made after 2 matches.We are talking about EDGES....not who is better....and after 9 matches we won't really know who is better either....The format required to find the better player between Daniel and barry would take months to complete. Link to post Share on other sites
cdddc75 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I think he knows. You should reread this post...I think losing ONE MILLION dollars to somebody (If he loses this challenge) in one particular game Heads Up constitutes an inferiority to the winner in that particular game....Heads Up of course. I'm suprised at the number of people getting this wrong. If you lose 2 matches in a row(btw' date=' DN hasn't lost the second) that doesn't mean you are inferior. Regardless of the amount you've lost to them(1 mil or 50cents).So let me get this straight. If DN comes back to win this match then they will be considered EXACTLY the same in Stud' date=' right? I mean after all' date=' they played a whole 2Travis 1, Donks 0People that can read: 7cdddc75= 0Please read before you spout off.BTW...only a DONK tries to start a variance discussion and starts to try to start a Poker theory discussion when we are discussing HU play.Next thing you will say is that Daniel's Isolation plays aren't working.... I can read, thank you. I think losing ONE MILLION dollars to somebody (If he loses this challenge) in one particular game Heads Up constitutes an inferiority to the winner in that particular game....Heads Up of course. If he loses....what is Barry going to pick? Daniel says himself that Barry has an edge in PL Omaha.... So when does Danny N get in his comfort zone? In Limit Holdem I think..... In the Hi/Lo games..... NOT in NL Holdem.... I think that a 6-3 Barry series win seems very likely.Someone is blinded by the stakes of these matches. If you and I are nearly at the same level and I happen to beat you in the first two matches, would you concede four out of the next seven to me? We're not talking about two robots playing each other in a game that is entirely based on skill here... Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I think he knows. You should reread this post...I think losing ONE MILLION dollars to somebody (If he loses this challenge) in one particular game Heads Up constitutes an inferiority to the winner in that particular game....Heads Up of course. I'm suprised at the number of people getting this wrong. If you lose 2 matches in a row(btw' date=' DN hasn't lost the second) that doesn't mean you are inferior. Regardless of the amount you've lost to them(1 mil or 50cents).So let me get this straight. If DN comes back to win this match then they will be considered EXACTLY the same in Stud' date=' right? I mean after all' date=' they played a whole 2Travis 1, Donks 0People that can read: 7cdddc75= 0Please read before you spout off.BTW...only a DONK tries to start a variance discussion and starts to try to start a Poker theory discussion when we are discussing HU play.Next thing you will say is that Daniel's Isolation plays aren't working.... I can read, thank you. I think losing ONE MILLION dollars to somebody (If he loses this challenge) in one particular game Heads Up constitutes an inferiority to the winner in that particular game....Heads Up of course. If he loses....what is Barry going to pick? Daniel says himself that Barry has an edge in PL Omaha.... So when does Danny N get in his comfort zone? In Limit Holdem I think..... In the Hi/Lo games..... NOT in NL Holdem.... I think that a 6-3 Barry series win seems very likely.Someone is blinded by the stakes of these matches. If you and I are nearly at the same level and I happen to beat you in the first two matches, would you concede four out of the next seven to me? We're not talking about two robots playing each other in a game that is entirely based on skill here...Remember that the particulars of the matches are not even....Daniel slanted them in the favor of the challenger...he is allowing the challenger to pick the games.So If Daniel goes down 2-0 in the series...I don't see how you can say that Daniel will then win 5 of the next 7 to win the series when he is allowing his opponent (Barry) to pick the games.Daniel is already starting at a disadvantage by letting Barry pick the games.....Do you get it now? Link to post Share on other sites
Sundevils21 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 Travis....did you even read the posts? Variance is not being discussed. Who is better is not being discussed. What is being discussed is WHO has an edge in a particular game HU.I've read the posts.What is the difference between A and B?A. Who is betterB. Who has an edgeIf you are better than someone than you have an edge, right?If you have an edge over someone in any particular game how can you not be the better player in that particular game?If "who has an edge/who's better" is being discussed after only 1 match, then the term "variance" HAS to be brought into the conversation, imo. Link to post Share on other sites
cdddc75 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Remember that the particulars of the matches are not even....Daniel slanted them in the favor of the challenger...he is allowing the challenger to pick the games.So If Daniel goes down 2-0 in the series...I don't see how you can say that Daniel will then win 5 of the next 7 to win the series when he is allowing his opponent (Barry) to pick the games.Daniel is already starting at a disadvantage by letting Barry pick the games.....Do you get it now?Barry chose Stud this time? Someone should tell Daniel that.It's much too early to draw conclusions that either player has an edge HU. Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Remember that the particulars of the matches are not even....Daniel slanted them in the favor of the challenger...he is allowing the challenger to pick the games.So If Daniel goes down 2-0 in the series...I don't see how you can say that Daniel will then win 5 of the next 7 to win the series when he is allowing his opponent (Barry) to pick the games.Daniel is already starting at a disadvantage by letting Barry pick the games.....Do you get it now?Barry chose Stud this time? Someone should tell Daniel that.It's much too early to draw conclusions that either player has an edge HU.Barry chose Stud as the first game....the loser of a challenge has the right to a rematch in that particular game.The challenger PICKS ALL THE GAMES....Daniel doesn't.....of course...you knew that right? Did you? Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Travis....did you even read the posts? Variance is not being discussed. Who is better is not being discussed. What is being discussed is WHO has an edge in a particular game HU.I've read the posts.What is the difference between A and B?A. Who is betterB. Who has an edgeIf you are better than someone than you have an edge, right?If you have an edge over someone in any particular game how can you not be the better player in that particular game?NO....an edge in any particular game HU can manifest itself in the slightest way, and it means nothing as to who is better.I am suggesting that Barry might have an edge in HU 7 STUD HI if he wins both HU matches in STUD.It has nothing to do with who is better.It has to do with an edge.......FOR example......a relative of Johnny Chan might have an edge in NL Holdem because he might know a tell that nobody on the planet knows and can pick up. Something so suttle that only a blood relative would know.Does it make the hypothetical blood relative to Johnny Chan a better NL Holdem player? HELL NO....does it give him an edge? YES. Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Remember that the particulars of the matches are not even....Daniel slanted them in the favor of the challenger...he is allowing the challenger to pick the games.So If Daniel goes down 2-0 in the series...I don't see how you can say that Daniel will then win 5 of the next 7 to win the series when he is allowing his opponent (Barry) to pick the games.Daniel is already starting at a disadvantage by letting Barry pick the games.....Do you get it now?Barry chose Stud this time? Someone should tell Daniel that.It's much too early to draw conclusions that either player has an edge HU.Barry chose Stud as the first game....the loser of a challenge has the right to a rematch.The challenger PICKS ALL THE GAMES....Daniel doesn't.....of course...you knew that right? Did you?If DN wins, the loser has a right to a re-matach... i.e. DN will not hit and run. If DN loses, he never claimed the right for a re-match... in this situation Greenstein offered DN a rematch, which DN was thankful for. Link to post Share on other sites
cdddc75 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Remember that the particulars of the matches are not even....Daniel slanted them in the favor of the challenger...he is allowing the challenger to pick the games.So If Daniel goes down 2-0 in the series...I don't see how you can say that Daniel will then win 5 of the next 7 to win the series when he is allowing his opponent (Barry) to pick the games.Daniel is already starting at a disadvantage by letting Barry pick the games.....Do you get it now?Barry chose Stud this time? Someone should tell Daniel that.It's much too early to draw conclusions that either player has an edge HU.Barry chose Stud as the first game....the loser of a challenge has the right to a rematch.The challenger PICKS ALL THE GAMES....Daniel doesn't.....of course...you knew that right? Did you?Apparently I can't read and I'm deaf:http://video.cardplayer.com:8080/video/vid...o/061205_09.wmvEnough already. Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Apparently I can't read and I'm deaf:http://video.cardplayer.com:8080/video/vid...o/061205_09.wmvEnough already. NO...you can't read:I probably shouldn't be telling everybody about this before I run it by the people at the Wynn, but I have an idea that I think will be lots of fun for me, and hopefully profitable as well. It's pretty simple really: I'll play anyone in the world a heads up freeze out for any amount from $100,000 to $500,000. As for the game of choice- I'll let you pick it from the following list. You can choose just one or any mix of games you want.Limit Hold'emOmaha H/LStud H/LStud2-7 Triple DrawA-5 Triple DrawPot Limit OmahaPot Limit Hold'emNo Limit Hold'em I won't refuse anyone. The only stipulation I have is that if I lose a match to someone I have the right to take my lumps like a man and quit. If Phil Ivey comes down to the Wynn and plays me heads up for $500,000 for example, I won't back down. In my opinion, he is a better Stud player than me, but I'll play him anyway and hopefully learn a thing or two. If I'm lucky enough to win, I'd gladly give him a rematch. If I feel truly outclassed, I won't accept any more challenges in that game from him. However, he is welcome to choose a new game from the list. I have structures in mind for all of the various games based on the amount we are playing for. For example, in a $100,000 limit hold'em challenge we'd play $1500-$3000 until one of us has it all. If it was a $500,000 limit hold'em match, we'd play $5,000-$10,000 limit, giving us 50 big bets each to add more play. Since it is a freeze out format neither player can quit until we wipe the other out. We can take breaks, schedule it over several days, or play straight through. I'm very flexible on that. The matches would have to work around my tournament schedule, but I will definitely make any and all challenges a priority regardless of the amount. Feeling lucky anyone? Link to post Share on other sites
cdddc75 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 NO....an edge in any particular game HU can manifest itself in the slightest way, and it means nothing as to who is better.I am suggesting that Barry might have an edge in HU 7 STUD HI if he wins both HU matches in STUD.It has nothing to do with who is better.It has to do with an edge.......Any reasonable person will agree with this. It's a much different statement than your first statement in this thread.Good enough for me. Link to post Share on other sites
cdddc75 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 So Daniel lied in the Cardplayer interview and Barry was the one who chose to play Stud again?Cool. Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 NO....an edge in any particular game HU can manifest itself in the slightest way, and it means nothing as to who is better.I am suggesting that Barry might have an edge in HU 7 STUD HI if he wins both HU matches in STUD.It has nothing to do with who is better.It has to do with an edge.......Any reasonable person will agree with this. It's a much different statement than your first statement in this thread.Good enough for me.That is because you were reading my posts in the wrong context.You have to read posts in the context of what I was responding too.If I respond to a post by saying "You are an A-Hole." It doesn't mean I am calling YOU an A-Hole...it means that I am calling the person I responded too an A-Hole. Link to post Share on other sites
Sundevils21 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 NO.... an edge in any particular game HU can manifest itself in the slightest way, and it means nothing as to who is better. I am suggesting that Barry might have an edge in HU 7 STUD HI if he wins both HU matches in STUD. It has nothing to do with who is better. It has to do with an edge....... FOR example......a relative of Johnny Chan might have an edge in NL Holdem because he might know a tell that nobody on the planet knows and can pick up. Something so suttle that only a blood relative would know. Does it make the hypothetical blood relative to Johnny Chan a better NL Holdem player? HELL NO....does it give him an edge? YES.The better player has the edge.If you have an edge at 7stud, than you are a better 7stud player.We're not talking about tells that nobody in the world knows. Or Barry forgot to drink his fruit smoothy before the match. Or if DN played good/bad in the golden tee game beforehand. We're talking about poker. The edge goes to the better player(if not than why would Barry even want to play DN head up? the fact is, he thinks he's a better player)If DN comes back and wins 3 in a row in stud over Barry what does that mean about the edge?I don't think the better player could lose in the long run because of these "edges". Link to post Share on other sites
alf13 0 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 So Daniel lied in the Cardplayer interview and Barry was the one who chose to play Stud again?Cool.Hey.....read his challenge...it is right there in BLACK AND WHITE.....His opponent picks the games.I don't know how he was going to refuse to play PLO unless he was going to exercise his "I have the right to take my lumps and quit" clause.What can I say....it is the rules to his own challenge. Link to post Share on other sites
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