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challenge match #5: daniel vs. barry greenstein


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Daniel Negreanu vs. Barry Greenstein Where: The Wynn When: 3:30 PSTAmount: $500,000 Game: Undetermined Stakes: Undetermined Barry hasn't told me what game he is choosing yet. If he picks a game that I think he just might pick, chances are we will end up playing a rematch in 7 Card Stud. I'll have Travis post the details as they come in.

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I feel really good. Chances are I will just play him Stud again, because after playing him last time I'm convinced that I have the edge in that game. There is one game I'm worried about, but of course since he may read this I won't say which one. Frankly, I don't think he'll choose any form of Hold em', but I'm more than willing to play Stud again, and again.

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I feel really good.  Chances are I will just play him Stud again, because after playing him last time I'm convinced that I have the edge in that game.  There is one game I'm worried about, but of course since he may read this I won't say which one.  Frankly, I don't think he'll choose any form of Hold em', but I'm more than willing to play Stud again, and again.
You're afraid of him in Indian Poker?(sw)
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Game: 7card studStakes: $4000-$8000Updates in this post as they come in from Daniel. He will give updates every dealer change(or 30min)4:01-Daniel up 87,000 after first dealer.4:31-Daniel up 132K after the second dealer. So far DN is 0 for 3 on flush draws(per the norm as of late). He's bluffed him once though :-)5:01- Daniel up 136.5:30- DN up 83K after the 4th dealer.6:04- Match is tied up 500,000 at peice. DN can't hit a flush draw now he's 0 for six.6:32- Daniel down 145k. Barry has made a buch of straights and full houses. 7:05- Daniel down 32k. He had rolled up aces and was paid off. 7:30- DN up 45K.7:40- Daniel up 62k at bathroom break.8:07-Daniel now down 11K, losing with pocket queen's a couple times.8:42- Daniel up 29 now.8:51- Queens just aren't DN's hand tonight. Lost another one with buried queens to the river.9:11- Daniel down 58. Was down 140.9:21- Daniel down 50K at bathroom break.9:34- Down only 5000 now.10:01- DN down 56K.10:35- Daniel down 116K. Lost again with pocket queens(turning into a nightmare hand)11:03- DN down 138K.11:31- DN up 23K. The last dealer is starting.12:04- Daniel up 96 and they are going another hour. "I'm fresh and he's tired. This could be good."12:32- DN up 79K. Barry just won a monster pot with a flush to beat DN's straight.1:00- Daniel is up 92k at the end of the night.Play will resume at a later date. -Travis

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Game: 7card studStakes: $4000-$8000Updates in this post as they come in from Daniel.-Travis
what other game did barry suggest when he came in?
I don't have any details right now other than 7stud 4K-8K.-Travis
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Game: 7card studStakes: $4000-$8000Updates in this post as they come in from Daniel. He will give updates every dealer change(or 30min)4:01-Daniel up 87,000 after first dealer.4:31-Daniel up 132K after the second dealer. So far DN is 0 for 3 on flush draws(per the norm as of late). He's bluffed him once though :-)5:01- Daniel up 136.-Travis
Just in case somebody hadn't noticed, the updates are in a post above this one 8) -Travis
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I think Greenstein definitely has the edge in Razz, should they play that dreadful game. Greenstein probably has better tuned math skills for Razz, not to say it'll be a cakewalk for him.Daniel is making it awfully obvious as to what he thinks he doesn't have the edge in. Not any form of Hold'em, not Limit Omaha (high or H/L), and not stud (high or H/L). That leaves Pot Limit Omaha and Razz. Thoughts?

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I think Greenstein definitely has the edge in Razz, should they play that dreadful game.  Greenstein probably has better tuned math skills for Razz, not to say it'll be a cakewalk for him.Daniel is making it awfully obvious as to what he thinks he doesn't have the edge in.  Not any form of Hold'em, not Limit Omaha (high or H/L), and not stud (high or H/L).  That leaves Pot Limit Omaha and Razz.  Thoughts?
Good analysis... I'd say Razz between those two, Daniel's pretty strong in Omaha from what I've read.Who wants to be good at Razz though? I mean... it's Sadistic in every sense. Really hope they save a few of the games for July when I am in town man that'll just be intersting to be around...
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I think Greenstein definitely has the edge in Razz, should they play that dreadful game.  Greenstein probably has better tuned math skills for Razz, not to say it'll be a cakewalk for him.Daniel is making it awfully obvious as to what he thinks he doesn't have the edge in.  Not any form of Hold'em, not Limit Omaha (high or H/L), and not stud (high or H/L).  That leaves Pot Limit Omaha and Razz.  Thoughts?
Good analysis... I'd say Razz between those two, Daniel's pretty strong in Omaha from what I've read.Who wants to be good at Razz though? I mean... it's Sadistic in every sense. Really hope they save a few of the games for July when I am in town man that'll just be intersting to be around...
JayWeber22: You have to be sadisticJayWeber22: To play poker
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I think Greenstein definitely has the edge in Razz, should they play that dreadful game.  Greenstein probably has better tuned math skills for Razz, not to say it'll be a cakewalk for him.Daniel is making it awfully obvious as to what he thinks he doesn't have the edge in.  Not any form of Hold'em, not Limit Omaha (high or H/L), and not stud (high or H/L).  That leaves Pot Limit Omaha and Razz.  Thoughts?
Good analysis... I'd say Razz between those two, Daniel's pretty strong in Omaha from what I've read.Who wants to be good at Razz though? I mean... it's Sadistic in every sense. Really hope they save a few of the games for July when I am in town man that'll just be intersting to be around...
JayWeber22: You have to be sadisticJayWeber22: To play poker
Lol I was reminded of that myself man, hence the quote :DI think of a few lyrics when playing razz... goes a something like... "Would you grant me one last wish, play russian roulette..."Am I so wrong?
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If I were playing Barry Greenstein heads up, I wouldn't choose the $4000-$8000 limit.Heads up matches are the closest thing to the many of the advanced game theoretical models of poker. Anytime you have a known bet size, you can reduce the the complexity of the linear equations substainally. Barry, a mathematican, who plays $4000-$8000 all the time, would have a firm grasp on the linear equations resulting from a $4000-$8000 bet size. He may be able to reduce any edge Daniel has to virtually zero, and if he picks up any patterns from Daniel he could produce a good edge for himself...I think Daniel would have a better chance in a different ante structure, or a no limit game, where Barry would have a harder time with calculating optimal strategies, but not $4000-$8000 limits or pot limits...just a thought.

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barry is not a stupid man...what we all fail to realize here, or many of us at least, is that barry did not have a fortune prior to poker. we are quick to talk about negreanu's bankroll and how great it is, but we give barry little credit about how he can not only play negreanu, but also stake mimi vs negreanu without sweating it...that being said, i don't think barry's personality is a great poker personality, but i do respect him as a poker player and a very smart one at that.

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Heads up matches are the closest thing to the many of the advanced game theoretical models of poker. Anytime you have a known bet size, you can reduce the the complexity of the linear equations substainally.  Barry, a mathematican, who plays $4000-$8000 all the time, would have a firm grasp on the linear equations resulting from a $4000-$8000 bet size. .
Do you have any idea what YOU are even talking about?
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i think he brings up some good points, 4000-8000 stakes are barry's comfort level. regardless of the excess verbage stated in his post, it was a good point that daniel should go for different stakes...3000-6000? 2000-4000? that would bring the luck factor down and also make barry less comfortable by playing limits that are not what he's used to...we often get restless if we play lower than our own level and scared if we play higher than our normal level...as an aside, i really do love negreanu's personality and think its great for poker, and he's a great poker player no doubt, but 7stud i'd imagine is an edge for barry, however slight that may be...

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If I were playing Barry Greenstein heads up,  I wouldn't choose the $4000-$8000 limit.Heads up matches are the closest thing to the many of the advanced game theoretical models of poker. Anytime you have a known bet size, you can reduce the the complexity of the linear equations substainally.  Barry, a mathematican, who plays $4000-$8000 all the time, would have a firm grasp on the linear equations resulting from a $4000-$8000 bet size. He may be able to reduce any edge Daniel has to virtually zero, and if he picks up any patterns from Daniel he could produce a good edge for himself...I think Daniel would have a better chance in a different ante structure, or a  no limit game, where Barry would have a harder time with calculating optimal strategies, but not $4000-$8000 limits or pot limits...just a thought.
First of all, Linear equations that would relate to the bet amounts in poker aren't very complex at all, and Barry, being a mathematician wouldn't have trouble coming up with one for the other limits they could play at. I'd also like to point out that players at the level of DN who don't use equations to determine optimal strategy can normally infer what the optimal strategy is, on their own.
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i think he brings up some good points, 4000-8000 stakes are barry's comfort level.  regardless of the excess verbage stated in his post, it was a good point that daniel should go for different stakes...3000-6000? 2000-4000? that would bring the luck factor down and also make barry less comfortable by playing limits that are not what he's used to...we often get restless if we play lower than our own level and scared if we play higher than our normal level...as an aside, i really do love negreanu's personality and think its great for poker, and he's a great poker player no doubt, but 7stud i'd imagine is an edge for barry, however slight that may be...
i just sent you a PM on an unrelated topic, it'd be great if you could read it. thanks a lot.
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Do you have any idea what YOU are even talking about?
I'm not sure if this is meant to be a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyway. The most commonly modeled poker game using game theory is the 2 person zero sum (or modifed constant sum) form. .The indifference equations resulting from the analysis are in terms of Bet size and raise size.. also in terms of the other indifference points. If barry was constantly working with $4000 $8000 bet sizes, he would know many of the coefficients to find approximations of the indifference equations. He wouldn't be able to solve each hand in his head, but he could solve certain aspects of the problems, do certain estimations to approach optimal plays against daniel... a different ante structure would make the system behave differently, and he wouldn't as familar with the behaviorof the linear system...its just an idea..[edit]
First of all, Linear equations that would relate to the bet amounts in poker aren't very complex at all
Well, they are of many, many variables that would take a very long time to solve without having most of it solved already..
I'd also like to point out that players at the level of DN who don't use equations to determine optimal strategy can normally infer what the optimal strategy is, on their own.
good point.. I wish I could do that :?
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