turning "pro"

[elkang 0]

Though the definiton does not mean much - and varies from person to person - I am now making the quest to go professional. I've been planning it from a business model perspective since that is my background. I view bankroll mgmt just like managing a small business or any budget.Meanwhile, Cardplayer had this great interview with some CO guy named Rocky.So, obviously I won't know if I am a success for another 3 yrs. This is my 4th big venture and I tend to do these sort of things for about 5 years. I'm playing mostly online since it is more lucrative and re-evaluating every day, week, month to see what the next step is. For now, I play from 2-8 hrs a day for about 5 days a week and have started going to the gym every other day and adding more physical activity (dancing, climbing) to my schedule. I'm working on my mental game too and re-reading some sports books (The Inner Game...).I've got the support of my wife and friends (though these are not poker buddies - there's a reason for that) so far the plan is working. I'm not keeping a blog or anything - just a lot of notes to myself as I try to improve my game. As always, I welcome feedback from anyone - in any thread I participate in - hopefully something that will help rather than be silly. Feel free to mock me though but try to be funny.

[knght311 0]

http://www.spandexman.com/you might want to go here for the dancing thing...

[custom36 4]

Good luck.

[knght311 0]

ok...was that a good flame? GL though, I would love to turn pro...my 4 months of harcore "variance" is getting me down...as well as my bankroll

[pokerplayer24 0]

wat limits are you playing?

[elkang 0]

Good luck.

That certainly helps. I lost a $900 pot today with pocket aces. I played it standard - re-raise preflop, bet every street. I flopped a set (rainbow board), turn no flush possible, and the river enabled a KT straight. The guy only had $100 left so I bet it. He had the KT off suit. I thought I would call the $100 so why not bet it and expect a call. Maybe I should have checked but it seems useless not to.I don't mind this, which is probably a good trait to have as a player. But, I was annoyed when he sat out and then left the table. That's just rude. Some dude from France.Still I want to work on my mental game. I am trying to reduce my obvious mistakes to less than 2 an hour. I write down on a post-it every time I make a mistake (and quit the session after 5) but I want a better training system.

[knght311 0]

Good luck.

That certainly helps. I lost a $900 pot today with pocket aces. I played it standard - re-raise preflop, bet every street. I flopped a set (rainbow board), turn no flush possible, and the river enabled a KT straight. The guy only had $100 left so I bet it. He had the KT off suit. I thought I would call the $100 so why not bet it and expect a call. Maybe I should have checked but it seems useless not to.I don't mind this, which is probably a good trait to have as a player. But, I was annoyed when he sat out and then left the table. That's just rude. Some dude from France.Still I want to work on my mental game. I am trying to reduce my obvious mistakes to less than 2 an hour. I write down on a post-it every time I make a mistake (and quit the session after 5) but I want a better training system.

my "training session" that I used to work on involved my bankroll...I know we have all read about not getting up when you are up...and I completely agree with this...but for about 6 months I implemeted a plan where anytime I was up and I had been playing for over 3hours I would get up...no matter how much I was up....and I found that this enabled me to control my BR much easier and it caused me to not take as many losses....I think I recorded about 4 complete losses of my buy in and maybe about 15-20 where I was down...but all in all my BR got built up extremely quickly and it was a very rewarding system...you might take this into consideration

[elkang 0]

wat limits are you playing?

$200 NL mostly online. Limit around $1/2 usually for bonuses. Multitable usually. Now single tabling as I'm going over web and WSOP stuff. Live I still play baby $1/2 and $6/12 Limit. I only play Hold'Em.I will add SnG and many more MTT tourneys to my playlist again along side with the cash game grind. I think that's a good fit for my state of mind.This is based on my skill set, my bankroll and what I find to be the most lucrative games.I am comfortable with the money now. The long term goal, is not set, but obviously I want to move up in limits. I will do so when I have comfortable bankroll because I cannot afford risk of ruin - it would be social and psychological disaster to those around me. I have a large number of Asian friends who have family members that have essentially lost their lives to gambling. One of my wife's closest friends from Montana, had a husband who pissed away his life also. So, I have to stay well clear of ruin.

[elkang 0]

http://www.spandexman.com/you might want to go here for the dancing thing...

My scene buys dance clothes at athletic stores (dryfit) or Internation Male. Yes, we are that gay. Not spandexman gay - but close enough. Some dorks buy vintage. Chris Ferguson is in that scene too. But, he's teh cool.

[JaysonWeber 0]

Its good that you recognize staying active and healthy is part of your routine.If I didn't have 5 days a week where I spent 2-3 hours in the Gym I don't know what a wreck I'd be. It helps you focuse yourself while playing and allows for you to stay at the tables longer if you need to.I think that Phsyical Fitness is one of the least appreciated things when people consider turning pro, I made an interesting post about it over at 2+2 which was very indepth if ya want me scrounge it out for ya elkang.

[Airabus 0]

Though the definiton does not mean much - and varies from person to person - I am now making the quest to go professional. I've been planning it from a business model perspective since that is my background. I view bankroll mgmt just like managing a small business or any budget.Meanwhile, Cardplayer had this great interview with some CO guy named Rocky.So, obviously I won't know if I am a success for another 3 yrs. This is my 4th big venture and I tend to do these sort of things for about 5 years. I'm playing mostly online since it is more lucrative and re-evaluating every day, week, month to see what the next step is. For now, I play from 2-8 hrs a day for about 5 days a week and have started going to the gym every other day and adding more physical activity (dancing, climbing) to my schedule. I'm working on my mental game too and re-reading some sports books (The Inner Game...).I've got the support of my wife and friends (though these are not poker buddies - there's a reason for that) so far the plan is working. I'm not keeping a blog or anything - just a lot of notes to myself as I try to improve my game. As always, I welcome feedback from anyone - in any thread I participate in - hopefully something that will help rather than be silly. Feel free to mock me though but try to be funny.

I think this is the most well thought out plan for turning "Pro" I have seen. If I was to turn "Pro" (A possibility when my wife finishes her Masters degree next May. She is a nurse.) I would have to pattern my business after this model. I honestly never thought about adding a little extra physical activity but it makes sense given the fact you will be sitting in front of a monitor challenging your brain for 8 hours a day.I do have some questions if you don't mind. What is your profit break down? For example, what percentage of your profit goes to your bankroll and what percentage goes to bills, investments, savings, etc? I am trying to figure these things out myself because I currently have stopped building my bankroll so I can use my profits to pay off some debt. Once I get that done I'll start moving up again. Thanks for the info.

[elkang 0]

I do have some questions if you don't mind. What is your profit break down? For example, what percentage of your profit goes to your bankroll and what percentage goes to bills, investments, savings, etc? I am trying to figure these things out myself because I currently have stopped building my bankroll so I can use my profits to pay off some debt. Once I get that done I'll start moving up again. Thanks for the info.

Questions are good. I need to work out many things still (taxes and much more) and this helps me put down words to my thoughts. Currently, all profit from poker goes to one category. Poker only. That fund is used for incidental entertainment expenses and poker only. Gambling (like craps) is not part of this budget. This is the plan for the next 2 months.The goal now is bankroll accumulation. Currently, I'm at $12000. I had a bad day today though. $1000 down.

[elkang 0]

Its good that you recognize staying active and healthy is part of your routine.If I didn't have 5 days a week where I spent 2-3 hours in the Gym I don't know what a wreck I'd be. It helps you focuse yourself while playing and allows for you to stay at the tables longer if you need to.I think that Phsyical Fitness is one of the least appreciated things when people consider turning pro, I made an interesting post about it over at 2+2 which was very indepth if ya want me scrounge it out for ya elkang.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I'm 32 - I need the help to get every edge. If you can find the URL that'd be awesome.

[checkymcfold 0]

wat limits are you playing?

$200 NL mostly online. Limit around $1/2 usually for bonuses. Multitable usually. Now single tabling as I'm going over web and WSOP stuff. Live I still play baby $1/2 and $6/12 Limit. I only play Hold'Em.I will add SnG and many more MTT tourneys to my playlist again along side with the cash game grind. I think that's a good fit for my state of mind.This is based on my skill set, my bankroll and what I find to be the most lucrative games.

i hope this doesn't come off as rude, but i wouldn't expect to be able to make a long term living at these limits. if you're going to play here, you'd better be willing to put in loooong work weeks and also have a reasonable ceiling of somewhere in the range of 2BB/hr (4)*40hrs/wk*52wks/yr=8320 dollars/yr per table. at this rate, you'd need to 4-table 40 hours a week to make a reasonable living. THIS IS WICKED HARD, and you probably wouldn't be able to sustain 2BB/hr four tabling 1/2 after staring at a computer screen for 8 hours that day.i'm not trying to dissuade you from doing it, but i would suggest waiting till you get up to AT LEAST 3/6 or 5/10 before trying to make a real living at cards. you have a wife (and maybe kids?). don't put that family at monetary risk until you have a year of sustainable wins at higher levels.

[elkang 0]

Please read before posting. My poker winnings do not affect my livelihood. But, with multi tabling a decent wage can be grinded out. I've yet to calculate my hr/rate to accuracy, but my BB rate has always been solid. But, most of all poor players hemmorage money at NL.I own my home and other property, my wife works and I do occaisional other jobs (like DJing or computer stuff). So, again money is not a stick in this poker game - just a carrot. Makes things a lot easier at the table. $900 pot to runner runner? Almost meaningless.

[elkang 0]

Also, please note NL is the source of most of my current poker income. This may change. I am constantly evaluating the games I play and want to develop as a player as well as be profitable.Bear in mind that my bankroll is over 50 buy ins at $200. I would reduce my limits (and play online only) if I went down as well. I do not see myself going up in limits for another six months at least - but this transition date is hard to set.

[iveyfan30 0]

Please read before posting. My poker winnings do not affect my livelihood. But, with multi tabling a decent wage can be grinded out. I've yet to calculate my hr/rate to accuracy, but my BB rate has always been solid. But, most of all poor players hemmorage money at NL.I own my home and other property, my wife works and I do occaisional other jobs (like DJing or computer stuff). So, again money is not a stick in this poker game - just a carrot. Makes things a lot easier at the table. $900 pot to runner runner? Almost meaningless.

i wish you all the best...after reading your posts for a few months , it seems like you are one of the few posters on here that have the correct mindset for going "pro", akishore being the other,...i hope you keep us here at fcp well informed...i long for the days that i can shrug off losing a $9oo pot...lol...

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Watching your posts in strategy I've been able to gauge you're certainly taking poker seriously and improving in an intelligent manner.I think I know a pretty fair bit about poker, but not enough to be able to give you any meaningful advice about where you are and where you're headed.So good luck.And if you burn out... well I'll still be here to try and help you find out where you went wrong (:

[checkymcfold 0]

Please read before posting. My poker winnings do not affect my livelihood. But, with multi tabling a decent wage can be grinded out. I've yet to calculate my hr/rate to accuracy, but my BB rate has always been solid. But, most of all poor players hemmorage money at NL.I own my home and other property, my wife works and I do occaisional other jobs (like DJing or computer stuff). So, again money is not a stick in this poker game - just a carrot. Makes things a lot easier at the table. $900 pot to runner runner? Almost meaningless.

please be clear in your original post, then. it sounds as if your response implies that you're not really "going pro", but rather using poker as supplemental income. if this is the case, then go for it. i wish you the best of luck. the point of my post was to let you know that "pro" is a lot farther off than most of us would like to believe. if you're not really going pro (that is, living off your winnings), then we have no disagreement.

[Eph2008 0]

wat limits are you playing?

$200 NL mostly online. Limit around $1/2 usually for bonuses. Multitable usually. Now single tabling as I'm going over web and WSOP stuff. Live I still play baby $1/2 and $6/12 Limit. I only play Hold'Em.I will add SnG and many more MTT tourneys to my playlist again along side with the cash game grind. I think that's a good fit for my state of mind.This is based on my skill set, my bankroll and what I find to be the most lucrative games.

i hope this doesn't come off as rude, but i wouldn't expect to be able to make a long term living at these limits. if you're going to play here, you'd better be willing to put in loooong work weeks and also have a reasonable ceiling of somewhere in the range of 2BB/hr (4)*40hrs/wk*52wks/yr=8320 dollars/yr per table. at this rate, you'd need to 4-table 40 hours a week to make a reasonable living. THIS IS WICKED HARD, and you probably wouldn't be able to sustain 2BB/hr four tabling 1/2 after staring at a computer screen for 8 hours that day.i'm not trying to dissuade you from doing it, but i would suggest waiting till you get up to AT LEAST 3/6 or 5/10 before trying to make a real living at cards. you have a wife (and maybe kids?). don't put that family at monetary risk until you have a year of sustainable wins at higher levels.

I think that 2BB/hr playing NL especially ONLINE is not a realistic figure at all. I'm pretty sure that anyone considering a career as a pro NL player could put up better numbers than that. I'd love to hear what elkang's actual average NL BB/hr ratio is.

[checkymcfold 0]

I think that 2BB/hr playing NL especially ONLINE is not a realistic figure at all. I'm pretty sure that anyone considering a career as a pro NL player could put up better numbers than that. I'd love to hear what elkand's actual average NL BB/hr ratio is.

it's not realistic long term, but it's necessary to vastly underestimate your winnings when the short term can have an effect on your lifestyle.if you can lose one 900 dollar pot, you can lose 3 in a bad day, 10 in a bad week. you have to be prepared for that. it's good that elkang can shrug one such loss off, but if poker becomes a career, one needs to be able to shrug off at least a week of bad beats. they happen, and they hurt worse in NL than they do in limit. shrugging off 900 is one thing. shrugging off a 9k week is something else entirely.

[DKE_XP120 0]

I think that Phsyical Fitness is one of the least appreciated things when people consider turning pro, I made an interesting post about it over at 2+2 which was very indepth if ya want me scrounge it out for ya elkang.

jerk.....

[Eph2008 0]

I think that 2BB/hr playing NL especially ONLINE is not a realistic figure at all. I'm pretty sure that anyone considering a career as a pro NL player could put up better numbers than that. I'd love to hear what elkand's actual average NL BB/hr ratio is.

it's not realistic long term, but it's necessary to vastly underestimate your winnings when the short term can have an effect on your lifestyle.if you can lose one 900 dollar pot, you can lose 3 in a bad day, 10 in a bad week. you have to be prepared for that. it's good that elkang can shrug one such loss off, but if poker becomes a career, one needs to be able to shrug off at least a week of bad beats. they happen, and they hurt worse in NL than they do in limit. shrugging off 900 is one thing. shrugging off a 9k week is something else entirely.

Definitely true. But is it common practice to just grossly underestimate your hourly rate, because of the nature of the game?

[checkymcfold 0]

I think that 2BB/hr playing NL especially ONLINE is not a realistic figure at all. I'm pretty sure that anyone considering a career as a pro NL player could put up better numbers than that. I'd love to hear what elkand's actual average NL BB/hr ratio is.

it's not realistic long term, but it's necessary to vastly underestimate your winnings when the short term can have an effect on your lifestyle.if you can lose one 900 dollar pot, you can lose 3 in a bad day, 10 in a bad week. you have to be prepared for that. it's good that elkang can shrug one such loss off, but if poker becomes a career, one needs to be able to shrug off at least a week of bad beats. they happen, and they hurt worse in NL than they do in limit. shrugging off 900 is one thing. shrugging off a 9k week is something else entirely.

Definitely true. But is it common practice to just grossly underestimate your hourly rate, because of the nature of the game?

after one gets going (that is, lives off cards for a signifcant length of time), no. as one is getting started, it's highly recommended.and remember, we're not even talking about taxes, which are significant themselves, depending on where you live...

[potpumper43 0]

You noted that you are playing 1-2 limit and 200 NL, and also that you have a wife, etc. These are not big enough limits to make nearly enough money imo. What happens if you move up and find you cannot beat the higher games? I really think this "going pro" trend is the worst thing to come out of the recent poker boom. I know a couple guys who have made a mess of their lives over the last year. They were a couple years ahead of the poker boom and beating the low limit games, but when they tried to take their game higher got crushed. They started losing some meaningful pots (bills can be on the line when you are pro), but failed to adjust to hyper aggressive/skilled players in the bigger games. Instead of moving back down, they pillaged their bankrolls trying to be a "pro". These are all Sklansky disciples I might add (meaning they read his books to exclusion of other authors). I made a decent living playing 5-10 limit last year, but I only have myself to take care of. Even at 5 -10 you can't really make enough to make your monthly nut, live well, and still have enough profit left over for saving, investing, building bankroll, etc. I see a lot of these "going pro" posts here, and they are usually followed by a lot of back slapping and good lucks from the army of regular posters on this site. Read enough posts though and you see that most of these regulars are playing 1-2, 2-4, 3-6, etc. So consider the source of the advice you are getting. While some may be skilled and knowledgeable, they aren't playing 10-20 and higher. These limits and higher are where the real pros are. Before you flame me be aware that even though I made my living from poker last year, I do not consider myself a pro. I am just a mature, educated, experienced player. I urge you to take longer to consider this step you are hoping to take. You mentioned a 12K bankroll but you are playing 1-2 limit? 200 NL? You should be playing at least 5-10 limit by now. Try playing seriously for another year in some meaningful limits and you will have a clearer picture of your ability compared to the thousands of other people hoping to make the same jump that you are. Remember, the majority of these hopefuls are making their jump right off a cliff. Good luck.Peace.