shaq needed kobe, period

[alf13 0]

I understand your point moose and I do not necessarily disagree....i was just pointing out to this guy that he obviously does not know what he is talking about.....the term superstar depends on your philosophy of basketball really....but no one should be saying that ben wallace would not be picked in the first 50 of a pooled NBA draft....you seem knowlegeable and I guarantee u will agree with me on that...and hopefully, you would agree that this guy has NO CLUE what he is talking about...peace

Well, here's the point. I said that I reserve this superstar status for the top 5-10 players in the league. As Moose noted it denotes a star among stars. Since Ben isn't in that top 10, he's not a superstar to me. He might be in the top 50, but it's probably close. Here's the quick list (in no particular order) 1. Shaq2. Kobe3. Lebron4. Iverson5. T-Mac6. Jermaine O'neal7. Yao8. Paul Pierce9. Ray Allen10. Tim Duncan Ben Wallace is officially eliminated11. Manu Ginobli12. Amare Stoudemire13. Steve Nash14. Jason Kidd15. Dwyane Wade16. Vince Carter17. Dirk Nowitski18. Carmelo Anthony19. Mike Bibby20. Shawn Marion21. Rasheed Wallace22. Rip Hamilton23. Chauncey Billups24. Tayshaun Prince25. Pau Gasol26. Baron Davis27. Ben Gordon28. Chris Weber (perhaps not after the knee injury)29. Peja30. Artest (suspension notwithstanding)And now we move on to guys that I would still pick before Wallace, but these are subject to debate:31. Gilbert Arenas32. Tony Parker33. Emeka Okafor34. Dwight Howard35. Richard Jefferson (healthy)We're getting close to Ben Wallace territory because I really have to think now. Here's some Ben Wallace level picks36. Jamison37. Antoine Walker38. Lamar Odom39. Zach Randolph40. Larry Hughes41. Hinrich42. Jason Richardson43. Finley44. Joe Johnson45. Elton Brand 46. Quentin Richardson47. Rashard Lewis48. Cory Maggette49. Stephen Jackson50. Ilgauskus51. Kirilenko should be higher52. Kenyon Martin53. Steve Francis 54. KG should obviously be higher55. Stephon Marbury Here are some guys that I would consider taking before Ben, though I'm probably in the minority here.Ricky DavisChris BoshJason TerryAndre MillerAnd a few years ago, I might've taken these guys before BenSprewellCassellReggie MillerGrant Hill (if he could ever stay healthy)The fact is that hustle guys are more easily replaceable than skill guys. I can go get Bo Outlaw to chase down loose balls if I need a poor man's Ben Wallace. Sure, Ben is a great rebounder and good defender, but you can't tell me that there are 50 superstars in this league.

I disagree with your list...(I would have put Wade and KG in the top 10 at least) But that list just goes to show how far in the pecking order Wallace is.....and you left out a bunch of players.....

[BetItAll33 0]

I said the list was in no particular order and I was just throwing them out off the top of my head... it just happens that I didn't think of KG for a while. But yes, you're correct, Wallace does not make the cut.

[karr2242 0]

you guys can keep suckin each other off all you want....there's no gettin around you are both wrong....i'm done wastin my breath on you clowns....have fun with your bukakke fest loverboys......

[alf13 0]

you guys can keep suckin each other off all you want....there's no gettin around you are both wrong....i'm done wastin my breath on you clowns....have fun with your bukakke fest loverboys......

You are the one that said that Ben Wallace was a superstar...and you are calling us "clowns"?

[Guest XXEddie]

I think Kobe needed Shaqnot the other way around

[Naismith 0]

Magic was clearly a superstar, and while he may have been an average defender, I don't recall him being a "notoriously poor" defender. I grew up watching Magic and Larry in their prime... I even have many of the games on vhs and DVD, and I just don't remember Magic's defense being singled out as bad. Anyways, the overall standard of defense in the NBA was much lower then. When you are the best player on 5 NBA Championship teams, you are a superstar. If you're a role-player on 1 title team, you might not be. Heck,even if you have rings on every finger like Robert Horry, you might not be. For the definitive argument on why Reggie Miller is not a superstar, see Bill Simmons column on Espn page 2. Apply those same standards to Glen Rice. Rodman is actually a very good comparison to Ben... better rebounder, better passer, equal defender, though it won't show up in the blocks column, equally limited on offense. (same fg%, Wallace just takes more shots) And the fact remains, Rodman wasn't a superstar either.The pistons might not have won the title without Ben, but there are plenty of guys you could plug in to that spot and win with. I'm not sure Elden Campbell, Mehmet Okur, and Corliss couldn't have gotten the job done. Ben's production is partially a product of the system and his teammates. In Orlando in 2000 Ben started 81 games and averaged 8 boards and less than 5 points. This does not a superstar make.

Sorry for the late response. I just saw this post.Anyhow, Magic was considered a poor defender and for evidence, bust out the Lakers-Bulls finals or the Lakers-Pistons ones. Magic couldn't cover either MJ or Zeke (not that anyone could) and the Lakers never tried. In fact, when Joe Dumars went off in 1989 or 1990, they had to move Magic off him and onto Isiah. I remember this being a big deal at the time. The main storyline of the Bulls-Lakers championship was that MJ would cover Magic, but not vice-versa.As for Magic being a superstar...well, of course I agree. They don't come much better. I just fundamentally disagree that you have to be great on both ends of the court to be a superstar. Ben Wallace does things for his team that very players do for their own, but much of it isn't tangible. You can't see it in the box score.I liked Rodman as a player, moreso before he went insane. He was actually a decent scorer before he realized he was more marketable by not scoring. Early in his career, he was averaging near 10 points per game in limited time. That said, I don't think Rodman was ever the same caliber of player as Ben...he just was a bigger celebrity.If you took any of the starters off of last year's Detroit team, they would've been in rough shape. The Wallaces, though, are the only two irreplaceacble pieces on that team.And to whoever thinks Ben wouldn't be a top fifty pick if they drafted teams today, you're crazy. Scorers are a dime-a-dozen. Unselfish players that excel in the dirty work and don't need the ball are rare.In any case, enjoying the basketball talk. Simmons' take on Reggie is excellent and he's definitely a must-read for all sports fans, although I think a lot of his basketball opinions are crazy.Peace,JayTop Ten Draft Picks if they Re-drafted Today Based on All Factors Including Age (off the top of my head)1) Lebron2) Duncan3) KG4) Amare5) T-Mac6) Wade7) Kobe8) Yao9) Howard10) Dirk

[BetItAll33 0]

Magic was clearly a superstar, and while he may have been an average defender, I don't recall him being a "notoriously poor" defender.  I grew up watching Magic and Larry in their prime... I even have many of the games on vhs and DVD, and I just don't remember Magic's defense being singled out as bad.  Anyways, the overall standard of defense in the NBA was much lower then.  When you are the best player on 5 NBA Championship teams, you are a superstar.  If you're a role-player on 1 title team, you might not be.  Heck,even if you have rings on every finger like Robert Horry, you might not be.  For the definitive argument on why Reggie Miller is not a superstar, see Bill Simmons column on Espn page 2.  Apply those same standards to Glen Rice.  Rodman is actually a very good comparison to Ben... better rebounder, better passer, equal defender, though it won't show up in the blocks column, equally limited on offense. (same fg%, Wallace just takes more shots)  And the fact remains, Rodman wasn't a superstar either.The pistons might not have won the title without Ben, but there are plenty of guys you could plug in to that spot  and  win with.  I'm not sure Elden Campbell, Mehmet Okur, and Corliss couldn't have gotten the job done.  Ben's production is partially a product of the system and his teammates.  In Orlando in 2000 Ben started 81 games and averaged 8 boards and less than 5 points.  This does not a superstar make.

Sorry for the late response. I just saw this post.Anyhow, Magic was considered a poor defender and for evidence, bust out the Lakers-Bulls finals or the Lakers-Pistons ones. Magic couldn't cover either MJ or Zeke (not that anyone could) and the Lakers never tried. In fact, when Joe Dumars went off in 1989 or 1990, they had to move Magic off him and onto Isiah. I remember this being a big deal at the time. The main storyline of the Bulls-Lakers championship was that MJ would cover Magic, but not vice-versa.As for Magic being a superstar...well, of course I agree. They don't come much better. I just fundamentally disagree that you have to be great on both ends of the court to be a superstar. Ben Wallace does things for his team that very players do for their own, but much of it isn't tangible. You can't see it in the box score.I liked Rodman as a player, moreso before he went insane. He was actually a decent scorer before he realized he was more marketable by not scoring. Early in his career, he was averaging near 10 points per game in limited time. That said, I don't think Rodman was ever the same caliber of player as Ben...he just was a bigger celebrity.If you took any of the starters off of last year's Detroit team, they would've been in rough shape. The Wallaces, though, are the only two irreplaceacble pieces on that team.And to whoever thinks Ben wouldn't be a top fifty pick if they drafted teams today, you're crazy. Scorers are a dime-a-dozen. Unselfish players that excel in the dirty work and don't need the ball are rare.In any case, enjoying the basketball talk. Simmons' take on Reggie is excellent and he's definitely a must-read for all sports fans, although I think a lot of his basketball opinions are crazy.Peace,JayTop Ten Draft Picks if they Re-drafted Today Based on All Factors Including Age (off the top of my head)1) Lebron2) Duncan3) KG4) Amare5) T-Mac6) Wade7) Kobe8) Yao9) Howard10) Dirk

Good to see some intelligent discussion without the flaming.As for Magic, I'll concede to you that he was an average, perhaps slightly below average defender. Obviously Zeke and MJ present problems for anybody on defense, but there are a couple more problems for Magic.1. He's 6'9" and can't possibly be expected to match the quickness of those other guys. He's the same height as Bird, and he's bulky for a point.2. When he squared off with MJ, he was past his prime.As for Wallace, I don't agree that he's irreplaceable. Clearly he can be replaced by Tim Duncan, Jermaine O'neal, and the like, but I would go much further. I really think there are 20-30 guys that you can plug in to that team and win with. Again, my main contention here is that Ben Wallace is not a superstar. I reserve superstar status for the top 5-10 players in the league (leaning towards 5 more than 10) Even by your list, Ben doesn't make the cut. By my list, he doesn't even make the top ... we'll say 40, to be conservative. Regarding your draft - at what slot would you be comfortable picking Ben Wallace. If you're spending your first round pick on this guy, are you really comfortable building your future around him? I don't think he's a first round pick. Also, I'm really surprised to see Dwight Howard at #9. You're from Orlando, right? I think he's in the 20's somewhere.completely off-topic... as a Celtics fan, what do you think of our rookie Jefferson? Did you see much of him last year?

[Naismith 0]

Using your definition of a superstar, I agree that Ben isn't one. I'm just using it a little more loosely and less defined. I think you could replace Wallace with Duncan and KG, mainly because they're just as unselfish as both Wallaces. Beyond them, I'm not sure with anyone else. Whereas, I think you could replace Rip and Chauncey and to a lesser extent, Tayshaun, and still be a championship team. Although I think we'd both agree that the real key to Detroit is their teamwork and chemistry, so maybe removing any piece outside of Mehmet would be disasterous.I live in Tampa and am an Orlando fan, despite thinking they're the worst run organization in sports (although they're not even the worst run sports team within 120 miles of me if you count the poor Devil Rays). I rank Howard so high because he's so young and so gifted. He's a freak in the mold of Amare, only with a better work ethic. Will he be as good as Amare someday? I dunno. That's a tall order, but I think he'll be comparable. I don't think he's one of the ten best players in the league...not even close. But based on his upside, age and size (all of which are premium in the potential-based NBA), I can't see ten teams passing on him if they had a chance.Okay, where would Ben get drafted? I'd say somewhere after 10 and before 30. I know that's a big window, but I'm pretty confident it would fall somewhere in there without writing it all down. I think scoring guards would suffer in this kind of draft because of the amount available, thus pushing down that as a need outside of the top guys I listed (Lebron, T-Mac, Wade, Kobe). I think you'd be surprised at some of the players that got picked behind him; guys that are clearly better basketball players like Shaq, Kidd and Nash, all due to age, being injury-prone, etc. Guys that would definitely go ahead of him: Kenyon Martin, Emeka Okafor, Paul Pierce. Maybe Ray Allen, although I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't. Oh, Richard Jefferson would go ahead of him. So would the extremely overrated Carmelo. In any case, I'd pick him in the first round assuming I had a late pick and figure I could pick up some good scorers (like any of the Washington trio) later and at a better value. I love talking about this as if they're going to actually do this draft. :)As for your Celtics, I think Jefferson is horrible. I think he wouldn't crack most team's 12-man rotation. And I think you should trade him to Orlando immediately for a future second round pick. ;)All joking aside, I've seen him play a handful of times and I think he's going to be a force. He's definitely the future in Boston and should've got more playing time during the season. I cover the Orlando Summer League every year and he was getting rave reviews last year from the coaches. As far as value goes, I think he was the best pick in the draft at #15. He played extremely tough for a high school kid. I like him for the same reasons I like Howard and I think he has the added bonus of still growing into his body. By the way, Howard grew nearly two inches and put on thirty pounds after Orlando drafted him. How crazy is that?Delonte West, on the other hand, I'm not a fan of at all. I wasn't when he was in college and I'm still not to this day. But if you can get a contributor with a late first round pick, more power to you.If you don't know it yet, you will soon (it took us a little over a year to discover in Orlando), but you have an absolutely dysmal coach. Doc's a great guy and he definitely comes across extremely well in the press, but he's just not going to help your young guys improve. I'm not saying he needs to be a Larry Brown type; the kind of coach that makes a good team great. Unfortunately, he's the type that makes a good team average. I guarantee you'll be scratching your head at least a dozen times in the next year over his substitutions and overall lousy game management. I think that's the biggest concern in Boston. I don't think he has what it takes to whip Pierce back into his 2000-2003 form.Peace,JayPS Does the guy (Bob Weinhauer) who signed off on Dirk and a first round pick (ended up being Pat Garrity) for Robert Traylor cry himself to sleep every night? I know I get depressed thinking about T-Mac for Franchise.