agree with the book

[Guest XXEddie]

Readind "Internet Texas Holdem" by Matthew Hilger, cheap book, got fro christmas last yearIt gives you "test" at the end of each chapter that were actaul handsi completly disagreed with this hand$20/$40; You raise from early position with AK of clubs. A Middle position and both blinds call. Four players see a 9 5 3 flop. BB bets, You raise, middle position and SB fold, BB 3-bets you call. Turn 2 BB bets, 320 in pot, what do you do?Ill post my thoughts and books thoughts after insight, and if youve read the book please dont spoil it

[dtemp 0]

What limit?

[Guest XXEddie]

What limit?

sry 20/40

[sqirel 0]

If bb is agressive player probably call down, could be a flush draw. Otherwise fold. If the book says to raise i would probably stop reading it.

[TheIceman05 0]

Call. Why don't you call, here? Am I missing something?Ice

[mrdannyg 274]

sorry, but i don't play limits that high, and i'm aware the strategy of those games is vastly different than from the 2/4 and similar low-limit games.it seems though that this situation is significantly read-dependent. you could easily fold, call or even raise depending on your opponent. the guy may be trying to push you off the pot, either with a draw or without, and your raise could in fact push him off his weak draw or off a weak pair if your perception of his read of you is that you would not raise without a high pair.if he is a tight and/or passive player, he is likely only making this play with a pair, and you can easily fold.if you think he has overcards, you of course can call. if you think he has a pair, likely a pocket pair, you can call based on pot odds i guess, if all 6 of your outs are live (6/45=1/7.5 and pot is 8x your call) but that seems pretty weak.cheers,daniel

[TjSlifka 0]

I play occasional 20-40.. and ive seen hands like this .. It seems to me that he is betting his diamond draw and probably has you on overs trying to bet you out.. you see that alot from big blind.. either that or he has 2 pair and has you dominated.... depending on my mood.. id either raise or fold.. calling here would be a mad move I think... let me know though!

[troutsmart 0]

Depends on my opponent largely. However, if I feel I'm behind, but my ace or king is good, then it becomes a pot odds problem. Feeling that my opponent has a made hand and no flush draw and my A and K are good.52 cards in the deck - 6 known = 46 cards46 cards - 6 good cards (3 Kings, 3 Aces) = 4040 bad cards/ 6 good cards = 6.7 to 1320 (pot)/40(bet to call)= 8 Based on the math, you're good to go.However, I might disagree with the previously mentioned play of raising here, and the statement that such advise should cause you to throw the book away. I don't necessarily think raising is bad play. Many players will play the hand as this opponent has, with only a high flush draw. They could have middle pair, or a mid-pocket such as 88, 77, or 66. By raising on the turn, you may potentially get your opponent to fold a hand that beats yours. Such an opponent will likely bet the river anyway, so it will cost you the same 2 bets. If the opponent 3 bets you on the turn, you can fold or call. Most of the time, the player will call and check the river, but many times they will fold. Daniel Negreanu explains this much better than I do, and Jen Harman discusses it in SS II as well.a link to Daniel's article on playing the turn:http://cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archi...d=12911&m_id=45

[baritonick 0]

I'd raise... its not just the aces and kings you can catch, there are the fours that'll make your straight. Your raise may knock him out right there, or if not you get odds... Please excuse my post if it is based on incorrect information; I'm pretty new to the intricacies of poker strategy. Thank God (but mostly all you guys) for this site!

[Guest XXEddie]

maybe i should mention this before I say thisthis chapter was in about outs; and being able to count them and dis count outs(for flush draws, paired boards ex)book answer-my responses in caps....too lazt to do bold or dofferent colorCall. the worst case scenario is that your opponent has a set or two pair....WHICH CANT BE LIKELY CONSIDERING HE HAS BET/RAISED EVERY TURN...:roll:A straight is doubtful based on the betting sequence in the handGIVENEven in worst case scenario you still have four outs to a gut shot str8 draw. A gutshow is 11-1 requiring a $440 pot to call.FOUR OUTS TO THE ASS END OF A GUTSHOT, NOT TO MENTION IF THE 4 COMES, YOUR OPPONENT COULD HAVE A FLUSH.However, you also have outs if your opponent is betting a pair. These outs are conterfeited if your opponent has A9, A5, A3, K9, K5, K3 a set or two pairUNLESS YOU KNOW THE BB IS AGGRESSIVE I DONT THINK HE'S 3-BETTING THE PF RAISER WITH LESS THAT TWO PAIR.....MAYBE AN OVERPAIRI would discount the six outs as three out and play as i have 7 outs which requires $240 pot. ( 6-1 odds)A K AND 4 OF DONT HELP IF UP AGAINST FLUSH DRAW, MINUS THE 50% HE TAKE AWAY FOR TWO PAIR SET, GIVING 4 OUTS WHICH IS 10-1....NO ODDSIn the acual hand the opponent had 53 however, the 4 saved the player

[troutsmart 0]

dumb of me not to see the straight and additional outs. I still like a raise here in many cases, though if I knew my opponent to be a rock or pretty straight forward, I might opt to fold.

[braminc 0]

there is some really incorrect math being done up above.the pot odds you are getting are clearly 8 to 1. 320/40 = 8. 8 to 1 pot odds.implied odds make it 9 to 1theres a few possiblilities of what your opponent might have:1)flush draw, no pair - this means you have 4 outs to make top pair and 3 outs to make a straight. total of 7 outs. in this scenario 7/46 means you have about 5.5 to 1 to make your hand (NOT 6.5 to 1, this is incorrect) - since the pot odds are 8 to 1, you would want to call. (not raise!) pot odds: 8 to 1 hand odds: 5.5 to 1 decision: call2)flush draw, and a pair, this means you have 3 outs for the straight, between 2-4 outs to make top pair, in case his non-paired card is and ace or king. so you have between 5 and 7 outs. if you do actually only have 5 outs, then you have 5/46, which is just over 8 to 1 odds of making the winning hand. so here it is very close whether to call or not.the implied odds here give you one extra bet you can make on the turn if you make your hand, and you can still fold to a river bet if you miss your hand. so even with 5 outs, a call is profitable - new pot odds are 360/40 = 9 to 1 pot odds: 9 to 1 hand odds: 5.5 to 1, or 8.1 to 1 decision: call3) one pair. if your opponent has only one pair, either in the hole or with the board (a pair of aces or kings in the hole is very unlikely since the player didnt 3 bet preflop) then you have 10 good outs. 10/46 = 3.5 to 1 odds of making your hand. easy call, prob dont raise to avoid risk of a reraise. pot odds: 9 to 1 hand odds: 3.5 to 1 !! decision: call, raise if you have excellent read that this is all he has4)set. if your opponent has a set, you only have 4 good outs. this means 4/46 = 10.5 to 1 on making your straight. with the pot only giving you 8 to 1 and implied odds only increasing them to about 9 to 1, this is a folding situation. pot odds: 9 to 1 hand odds: 10.5 to 1 decision: fold5)92 of diamonds. if your opponent has this hand then you only have 3 outs. this is worst case scenario. no pair will help you, and the 4 of diamonds wont help you. lets do the math anyway, just for practice. 3/46 = 15.3-1 = 14.3 to 1 odds of making your hand. not at all profitable, please fold immediately if you think your opponent holds this hand.

[Catamo 0]

I dont see the logic of continuing after the flop, With only a A, K, a Runner-Runner Flush, or the low end of a straight draw as outs, Its clear that 1 of the 4 players has you beat, and you dont have the odds.The turn however, is a difficult call. An A, K, or a 4 could give you the lead in the hand, But may also give you false hope, as your opponent could be holding something like A9, K9, or 69.But, Id make the call anyway. If I improved on the river with an A K or a 4 Id call a bet by my opponent on the river, but if it didnt Id fold.

[DKE_XP120 0]

1)flush draw, no pair - this means you have 4 outs to make top pair and 3 outs to make a straight. total of 7 outs.  in this scenario 7/46 means you have about 5.5 to 1 to make your hand (NOT 6.5 to 1, this is incorrect) - since the pot odds are 8 to 1, you would want to call. (not raise!)    pot odds: 8 to 1    hand odds: 5.5 to 1    decision: callIf he has a flush draw, no pair, you are ahead, you dont need to make top pair, just need to avoid diamonds and his hole cards.

[DKE_XP120 0]

I dont see the logic of continuing after the flop, With only a A, K,  a Runner-Runner Flush, or the low end of a straight draw as outs, Its clear that 1 of the 4 players has you beat, and you dont have the odds.The turn however, is a difficult call. An A, K, or a 4 could give you the lead in the hand, But may also give you false hope, as your opponent could be holding something like A9, K9, or 69.But, Id make the call anyway. If I improved on the river with an A K or a 4 Id call a bet by my opponent on the river, but if it didnt Id fold.

waaay off.... You're heads up, not 4 players, the post flop raise is fine. And you better be continuing.You wouldnt bet with a straight or top pair on the river? Thats something you should do. Think, what will he call you with, that you have beat? If you make top pair, in this pot, he will call you with any part of the board.At the river its a $400 pot. Which means he only has to be on a flush draw with no pair one out of every 9 times to be profitable, read dependant, i'd consider calling.

[wrto4556 0]

if im BB i 3-bet 9 ,8 all day.

[Chiggleslap 0]

I follow Hilger's logic here. There are too many situations in which it would be correct to call a bet on the turn for it to be right to fold. This is obviously a tough spot Hilger's gotten himself into, but I agree with discounting the outs to 7 and calling. Again, it's a tough decision, but I think a fold is worse than a call unless you have an extremely good idea of what your player is holding based on his betting patterns.

[DKE_XP120 0]

if im BB i 3-bet 9 ,8  all day.

If that were the case, then all 10 outs are clean... easy call...you'd 3bet TP here? Eh..... I guess it would be easy to know if he had a big pair or high cards after you three bet

[Catamo 0]

Okay, You sold me on Raising The river if the Hand is improved. But Still, "Four players see a 9 5 3 flop" This is a horrible flop if your holding A K, Its clear you do not have the best hand at this point, and continuing would likely lead to a continuing loss in money.I think your opponent holding a Flush draw is out of the question, I dont think your opponent would have made it 3 bets after the flop if that was what he was holding. Most probable in my opinion, is your opponent is Holding a 9.

[t 0]

You definitely have to call here, but I would also argue for a raise here. If you are going to call your opponent down you can argue that putting in the 2 bets on the turn may be a good play. You have position and if your opponent smooth calls he will most likely check to you on the river where you can check it down or bet if you improve.

[DKE_XP120 0]

Okay, You sold me on Raising The river if the Hand is improved. But Still, "Four players see a 9   5   3   flop" This is a horrible flop if your holding A K, Its clear you do not have the best hand at this point, and continuing would likely lead to a continuing loss in money.I think your opponent holding a Flush draw is out of the question, I dont think your opponent would have made it 3 bets after the flop if that was what he was holding. Most probable in my opinion, is your opponent is Holding a 9.

You're getting 9-1 with 2 overs and a backdoor straight draw... I hope you arent folding the flop..... everIf he has a nine, no flush draw, you have 6 clean outs, only need 3.2-1 pot odds to call (not even looking at implied odds)easy raise here, at least a call

[Catamo 0]

Easy Raise? How is this an Easy Raise? Its obvious your opponent has your hand beat at this point, And your not a favourite to win. Your much better off worrying about taking the pot, You can hit a Ace, King, or a Four. Anything else and raising would just be the result of a bigger lose in money. Pot Odds force a call in this situation, But Re-raising doesnt sound like a very good idea.