iBeaver 409 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I think in age/financial issues there's a great argument for adoption. But health issues for the mom/baby are valid arguments for abortion. As an parent of an adopted child I am grateful Jins birth mom decided on adoption. Her circumstances were $ and well the stigma in Korea involving single mothers and children of single mothers. ultimately though I believe I have no right to decide what the woman next door or in another state decides. I feel that might be a tad selfish of me. I don't like abortion. I don't think in most cases I would choose to do it but I've always liked that if it came to a decision I was or the woman was allowed to make that choice. I guess it's more about individual rights to me than the whole religious aspect. I understand the religious aspect and can respect it but not being religious in way shape or form it's hard for me to support that side of the argument. I'm all for gays getting hitched. There is not one argument against it that I respect. Tbqh 2 Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 ultimately though I believe I have no right to decide what the woman next door or in another state decides. I feel that might be a tad selfish of me. I don't like abortion. I don't think in most cases I would choose to do it but I've always liked that if it came to a decision I was or the woman was allowed to make that choice. I guess it's more about individual rights to me than the whole religious aspect. I understand the religious aspect and can respect it but not being religious in way shape or form it's hard for me to support that side of the argument. I think for many people, being against abortion or not really comfortable with it, has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I think in age/financial issues there's a great argument for adoption. But health issues for the mom/baby are valid arguments for abortion. As an parent of an adopted child I am grateful Jins birth mom decided on adoption. Her circumstances were $ and well the stigma in Korea involving single mothers and children of single mothers. ultimately though I believe I have no right to decide what the woman next door or in another state decides. I feel that might be a tad selfish of me. I don't like abortion. I don't think in most cases I would choose to do it but I've always liked that if it came to a decision I was or the woman was allowed to make that choice. I guess it's more about individual rights to me than the whole religious aspect. I understand the religious aspect and can respect it but not being religious in way shape or form it's hard for me to support that side of the argument. I'm all for gays getting hitched. There is not one argument against it that I respect. Tbqh I think this what I agree with is the most. I personally don't believe in abortion in most cases , however it should be the woman's decision to choose. Link to post Share on other sites
iBeaver 409 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I think for many people, being against abortion or not really comfortable with it, has absolutely nothing to do with religion. I'm have no doubt you are right but the loud ones arguing it on the street corner or filing petitions against it are using the religion aspect. If say easily 7 out of 10 abortion convos I've been in is the other side bringing in scripture or "God says..." to defend their stance. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 (Reminder that I also have a degree in economics so sometimes I think like a crass economist) What's the adoption market like? Is there enough supply to meet demand? Or are we well short on supply of, say, choice babies? I say choice babies because I keep picture a tiny English scamp named Oliver in an orphanage and nobody wants him. Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I saw a quote once...can't remember who said it...it went something like... I don't think anyone is pro-abortion. Those people are more pro-choice. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Dubey 1,035 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Zach, I have nothing to back this up, but I would say in most developed countries, the Adoption "market" is heavily slanted to the demand side. You would have zero problems finding somebody to adopt your child if you went through the proper channels. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Zach, I have nothing to back this up, but I would say in most developed countries, the Adoption "market" is heavily slanted to the demand side. You would have zero problems finding somebody to adopt your child if you went through the proper channels. I thought that might be the case. That makes the "selfishness" argument a lot stronger, IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites
iBeaver 409 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 (Reminder that I also have a degree in economics so sometimes I think like a crass economist) What's the adoption market like? Is there enough supply to meet demand? Or are we well short on supply of, say, choice babies? I say choice babies because I keep picture a tiny English scamp named Oliver in an orphanage and nobody wants him. Way more kids than adoptive parents from my experience. I know many people who refuse to adopt as they feel they can only love a child built by them. I've had people quietly shake there head at us being an adoptive family. I've had people question out choice to get a foreign baby instead of a good old built in the USA baby. I have a long list of reasons. I won't bore you. Orphanages are full of children. Governments also play a lot of political games that deters people from adoption. If you remember we were supposed to pick up Jin in Jan 2012 after being "given" him in 5-11. Didn't get a go sign from the Korean government till 4/12. It was all political. People aren't adopting from Korea now because the wait and political crap is too much. Yet the orphanages are filling with children. Koreans don't adopt very much because society there shuns orphans. They get treated poorly in school and as they grow up. So Korea has always relied on other countries to adopt their orphans. Not it's a cluster fck. I have friends who've adopted domestically and it's been nothing but a long nightmare. That's because the us adoption system is flawed. But again it deters people from adopting. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I'm have no doubt you are right but the loud ones arguing it on the street corner or filing petitions against it are using the religion aspect. Yes, but just because someone is the loudest on an opinion, does not make them the representatives for all who share a similar opinion. Its usually the loudest who are the biggest idiots in any arguments, since they fail to see both sides of an argument and think yelling will get them their way. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 So it's a free trade problem. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Sounds like North America has higher demand than supply, but supply is overloaded in other countries? Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Steve obv knows more about this topic, but my little experience had to do with a close family member who adopted from Armenia. I even considered it myself at one time, and sort of looked into it. I was amazed to find out that in a 3rd world country like Armenia (which it most certainly is in many ways), a country who has a lot of orphans, sadly the costs were still sky high. (35k usd and up, when I looked years ago) Its amazing to me how that can happen in a place like that. I recall reading Steves experience and thinking the same thing about Korea once Steve had mentioned how costly it was. I find this reprehensible. Link to post Share on other sites
iBeaver 409 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Yes, but just because someone is the loudest on an opinion, does not make them the representatives for all who share a similar opinion. Its usually the loudest who are the biggest idiots in any arguments, since they fail to see both sides of an argument and think yelling will get them their way. Yeah ok. So...what exactly did I say that has you debating this? I never said "all people" or even @many people" use religion as their argument. Let me double check. Nope. Just brought up a side that I hear more as a reason against personally and commented on it. Sorry if I offended anyone. Link to post Share on other sites
iBeaver 409 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Steve obv knows more about this topic, but my little experience had to do with a close family member who adopted from Armenia. I even considered it myself at one time, and sort of looked into it. I was amazed to find out that in a 3rd world country like Armenia (which it most certainly is in many ways), a country who has a lot of orphans, sadly the costs were still sky high. (35k usd and up, when I looked years ago) Its amazing to me how that can happen in a place like that. I recall reading Steves experience and thinking the same thing about Korea once Steve had mentioned how costly it was. I find this reprehensible. Yeah ours was pretty close to that. It's a racket. No doubt. Worth it though in the end Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Yeah ok. So...what exactly did I say that has you debating this? I never said "all people" or even @many people" use religion as their argument. Let me double check. Nope. Just brought up a side that I hear more as a reason against personally and commented on it. Sorry if I offended anyone. dude chill. I didnt even think I was "debating" something. Your post sounds really hostile, I hope you dont think I was being hostile in mine. I was just saying that Im sure none of us think that the guy parading around on the street corner with a "BABY KILLER" sign thinks the same as the person who is just against abortion but can consider both sides of an argument without yelling. Link to post Share on other sites
iBeaver 409 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 dude chill. I didnt even think I was "debating" something. Your post sounds really hostile, I hope you dont think I was being hostile in mine. I was just saying that Im sure none of us think that the guy parading around on the street corner with a "BABY KILLER" sign thinks the same as the person who is just against abortion but can consider both sides of an argument without yelling. I'm Not angry it's just your posts seemed "hostile" so I was in defense mode Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Referee's ruling: Steve overreacted. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I'm Not angry it's just your posts seemed "hostile" so I was in defense mode I say with all humility.....really? I went back and read my 2 posts, both like 1 line, and I really had trouble reading the hostility. I believe you that thats how you read it, Im just curious how it came across that way. Anyway, sorry, wasn't my intention. I get its a volatile issue for many, but its not for me, and Im certainly not attacking you on your opinion either way. And Im not religious at all, and Im not one way or another on abortion. I couldnt be more of a fence sitter on this topic. Link to post Share on other sites
iBeaver 409 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 We should all just discuss this in person in Vegas so we don't have to guess tone Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 We should all just discuss this in person in Vegas so we don't have to guess tone AGREE! Link to post Share on other sites
iBeaver 409 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I say with all humility.....really? I went back and read my 2 posts, both like 1 line, and I really had trouble reading the hostility. I believe you that thats how you read it, Im just curious how it came across that way. Anyway, sorry, wasn't my intention. I get its a volatile issue for many, but its not for me, and Im certainly not attacking you on your opinion either way. And Im not religious at all, and Im not one way or another on abortion. I couldnt be more of a fence sitter on this topic. Well I put hostile in quotes bc I didn't take it as full on angry but it seemed you were I don't the right word tbqh. I wasn't angry though, just trying to validate my point on why I used the religion argument. Sorry posting and playing soccer downstairs. Link to post Share on other sites
Untilted 158 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 So its my understanding that Biatch is going to make a lot of money betting on this election 1 Link to post Share on other sites
iBeaver 409 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 So its my understanding that Biatch is going to make a lot of money betting on this election Lol did Biatch text you all upset no one realized he bet on Rubio Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Lol did Biatch text you all upset no one realized he bet on Rubio yes Link to post Share on other sites
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