Us Politics For Betting (Not Talking About Politics)

[serge 904]

There are good reasons to promote extreme capitalism and/or fiscal conservatism. Serge hasn't given any of those, but I'm sure all us liberals will admit there is plenty of room for debate in fiscal and economic policies. Unfortunately, that isn't what any of the Republican party is debating. They're debating who can hate ISIS the most, who can hate gays the most, who can give Christians the most freedom while denying basic rights to people who worship other religions. Their tax plans can be summed up in one sentence. Guns, taxes, economy, foreign affairs, the environment...these are political issues, and you'll barely hear a peep about them from Cruz, Trump or Carson.

 

I know extremism is going to be more typical of a primary than an election, but I think is telling that all we have discussed before today is whether certain policies pass even the most basic tests of ethics and the Constitution, but when we actually start discussing Democrats, we're actually discussing current issues.

 

Before the attacks in Paris and San Bernadino Trump's platform was on how to fix the economy...I think you will see more debates on the actual issues..The ISIS issue is the hot topic thats why you hear about it the most..

 

I also disagree with your generalization on hating gays and other religions...

[serge 904]

I'm a Habs fan, but I wouldn't disagree with someone who said they were playing like shit...even if it was a Leafs fan.

 

Its pretty rare that both teams play like shit...Its fun times..

[mrdannyg 274]

"I think you are right...I consider myself a conservative now, as I fall in line with a lot of the policies that they believe in..

 

However that doesnt mean I have to be against abortion, gay marriage and other hard core right wing ideologies."

 

I want to focus on this, because I think you represent a lot of people when you say this. And like I said, having a conservative view fiscally is totally reasonable, and there is plenty of room for discussion on plenty of issues. Guns, environment, if Obama is a wuss. We can agree to disagree on those. But my personal opinion would be that reasonable, ethical people can’t agree to disagree on some of the specific issues you brought up – abortion, gay marriage. I would add to that the right to practice your religion such that it does not infringe on others (aka no Muslim ban).

 

 

So I can understand how you and others can view themselves as a conservative and, in most years, vote conservative. But what I want to understand is how someone who is a good human being, and who views those things the way you do, can vote for people who will have those rights taken away. To me, the ability to say “who do I agree with more” goes away when one of the things I disagree with is a basic ethical consideration, like allowing gay people to get married, or Muslims to practice their religion, or women who are raped to have an early-term abortion.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I'm curious, why cant reasonable people disagree on abortion?

[Dubey 1,035]

I would tend to agree Arp. I wouldn't lump in Abortion with Gay Marriage and the right to practice religion peacefully. I think reasonable people can disagree on Abortion and be completely reasonable on either side.

[mrdannyg 274]

I really don't want to lose focus on the above point, which I desparately want to hear Serge (and anyone else's) view on, but I can't help pointing out that Donald Trump has actually advocated for things like "forcing Apple to manufacture in America" and "not letting TransCanada pipeline go through without the government getting a cut of the profits," and a forced repatriation of cash held overseas by American corporations.

 

Those are by far the most extreme socialist policies I have ever seen suggested outside of an actual communist government.

 

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/tax-reform

[mrdannyg 274]

I agree Arp, I put it in there because Serge mentioned it as one of his opinions. I think there is lots of room for discussion on abortion, though I think it is unreasonable to disagree on the extreme case I used - that of a very early-term rape victim.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

The idea isn't to raise taxes across the board, it's to be smarter in allocating the money that is there, while also more heavily taxing the very richest people. The problem is, the very richest people have all the power, and that is where the nonsense message of "why should a middle class family have to pay for people who are too lazy to work" comes from, even if it has no bearing in actual reality.

 

This might be one of my fav political posts on here ever. Its amazing what can be sold to people as truth, by blaming a segment of the population that most dont know a thing about at all.

Lets call him Joe. Joe leads what he thinks is a "middle class" life. The media tells Joe that those lazy people in the ghetto (you know who Im talking about Joe!) dont want to work, and are stealing his taxes. And if it wasnt for those people Joe, you could not pay those ridiculous taxes, and your money would still be with you. You could have that nice house+pool, and that nice car like your neighbour. But nooo, that guy (you know who Im talking about Joe, the guy who jumped that border fence), took the jobs AND cheats on welfare, and its costing you MONEY.

 

No one tell Joe most of his taxes are going to weapons manufacturers and that the good paying jobs were sent out of country. And if he finds out, well, he knows ISIS is coming to get him, so we need to spend that money. Only a pussy wouldnt spend that money. You're not a pussy are you Joe???

 

Its amazing how I used to think of myself as a conservative, and still do, if Im forced to give myself a label. But fact is, Im only fiscally conservative in the Canadian sense. The US thing is all f'ed up, its taken on a whole other level of ridiculous, right or left.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I agree Arp, I put it in there because Serge mentioned it as one of his opinions. I think there is lots of room for discussion on abortion, though I think it is unreasonable to disagree on the extreme case I used - that of a very early-term rape victim.

 

Question, when I questioned you, what quick thought came to your mind.

I would bet its "Oh, Arp is against abortion". lol

 

I actually pretty much lean towards allowing it, but I can really see both sides of this argument and can understand why some feel so strongly about it. Of course there are silly extremists on both sides, and there are certain cases where its easier to lean one way over the other, but I just cant see this as a YES/NO issue.

[Dubey 1,035]

I agree. I'm kind of on the fence about it. I can definitely see both sides. In general, anti-abortion campaigns/propaganda are the absolute worst.

[serge 904]

 

 

This might be one of my fav political posts on here ever. Its amazing what can be sold to people as truth, by blaming a segment of the population that most dont know a thing about at all.

Lets call him Joe. Joe leads what he thinks is a "middle class" life. The media tells Joe that those lazy people in the ghetto (you know who Im talking about Joe!) dont want to work, and are stealing his taxes. And if it wasnt for those people Joe, you could not pay those ridiculous taxes, and your money would still be with you. You could have that nice house+pool, and that nice car like your neighbour. But nooo, that guy (you know who Im talking about Joe, the guy who jumped that border fence), took the jobs AND cheats on welfare, and its costing you MONEY.

 

No one tell Joe most of his taxes are going to weapons manufacturers and that the good paying jobs were sent out of country. And if he finds out, well, he knows ISIS is coming to get him, so we need to spend that money. Only a pussy wouldnt spend that money. You're not a pussy are you Joe???

 

Its amazing how I used to think of myself as a conservative, and still do, if Im forced to give myself a label. But fact is, Im only fiscally conservative in the Canadian sense. The US thing is all f'ed up, its taken on a whole other level of ridiculous, right or left.

 

its a very simplistic approach to a very difficult problem. It's not as simple as money goes to guns and war.

[mrdannyg 274]

I actually thought of you (Arp) while I was writing it, because I seemed to recall that you had some intelligent opinions on abortion that were different than mine, and was hoping you also leaned Conservative and would say something! I thought you leaned pretty strongly against allowing it tbh. Maybe this is a discussion for another thread, but to me, saying absolutely no abortions (even in case of rape/incest) requires you to put personal feelings above a strong scientific consensus, which I'm not ok with. After that, there may be some room for discussio.n.

[iBeaver 409]

I like eating babies.

 

That's my general abortion response now.

 

Probably needs context.

 

I believe it was Bush's 2nd term campaign a person knocked on my door to tell me why I should vote for bush. When I caught wind of this early in his spiel I stopped him and said that I'm not voting for bush and that I have to go back to cooking dinner. His reply was something like

 

"Oh you're a democrat? You cooking babies in there?"

 

Umm yeah, I eat babies.

 

 

But in all seriousness, abortion IMO should not be used as a form of birth control but there are many circumstances where I believe a woman may be faced with a hard choice. She should be free to decide what that choice will be.

[digitalmonkey 929]

I'm pro-choice unless the choice is to repeatedly use abortion as a form of birth control...then I have issues.

[serge 904]

If you want to see a far right wing conservative Google Ted Nugents comments on the Iowa caucus.

 

 

[Dubey 1,035]

"probably needs context"

 

This cracked me up

[Zach6668 513]

Why do we care if people use it as a repeated form of birth control?

[digitalmonkey 929]

Why do we care if people use it as a repeated form of birth control?

 

Because there are more convenient, healthy, less expensive and less taxing on the system methods easily available.

[mrdannyg 274]

I would guess that almost no one who has actually been through an abortion would choose to use it as a repeated form of birth control. Most people with the full ability to make choices avoid repeated elective surgery.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I actually thought of you (Arp) while I was writing it, because I seemed to recall that you had some intelligent opinions on abortion that were different than mine, and was hoping you also leaned Conservative and would say something! I thought you leaned pretty strongly against allowing it tbh. Maybe this is a discussion for another thread, but to me, saying absolutely no abortions (even in case of rape/incest) requires you to put personal feelings above a strong scientific consensus, which I'm not ok with. After that, there may be some room for discussio.n.

 

I dont think Ive ever been "strongly" against it. I may have made some comments towards that though. Not sure I have any "intelligent opinions", they are just what I think, and many times, I am pretty sure I am not nearly as smart as I think I am. Frankly, that's my biggest pet peeve about people, that they aren't nearly the know it alls they think they are.

Most people just love to sprout sh*t without having any real knowledge, its just a simple society we live in where everyone has an opinion on the trending topics of the day.

[digitalmonkey 929]

I would guess that almost no one who has actually been through an abortion would choose to use it as a repeated form of birth control. Most people with the full ability to make choices avoid repeated elective surgery.

 

One would think, eh?

 

BTW...cost of an abortion at a random clinic in Ontario is between $450 and $900 and is covered by OHIP. Condoms are free at Planned Parenthood.

[Zach6668 513]

 

 

Because there are more convenient, healthy, less expensive and less taxing on the system methods easily available.

 

I think this is a good point.

[Dubey 1,035]

I can completely understand why somebody would choose abortion. I can't say for sure if I were a woman and in a certain situation, I wouldn't also choose it. I also believe that it is ultimately the most selfish decision you can possibly make. Adoption is always an option.

 

I'm sure I've told this story before, but my wife is adopted. Her mom got pregnant when she was 18 and wasn't in a position financially or emotionally to support a child. A lot of people would have said that it would have been perfectly acceptable for her to choose abortion, given her circumstances. She made the ultimate unselfish decision to go ahead and have the child, but give it up for adoption. Emotionally, and physically, that is an incredibly difficult decision to make. But ultimately, if she'd gone the other way, my wife would not exist today. My Son would not exist today. My Life would be completely different. I always think about that when the topic of abortion comes up. When you abort, I don't believe you are killing an aware human being, I don't believe it is murder, like a lot of the anti-abortion propaganda would have you believe. But you also can't possibly comprehend what future scenarios you are erasing from the world.

[mrdannyg 274]

Dubey, I get where you are coming from, but I don't see how that is significantly different than living a life where you don't try to bring as many children as you can into the world.

 

I think calling an abortion selfish is no less serious than me calling you selfish if you don't give blood, bone marrow, plasma and anything else at every possible opportunity. Any decision you make to have as many children as possible is selfish because you are similarly denying that future person's loves and children.

 

As you know (well, to the same degree that I know), having a child is the most taxing physical or mental thing a person ever does. I think it is unreasonable to suggest a person who does not go through with it unwillingly is selfish compared to anyone who does not devote their entire life, health and wealth to others (which none of us do, since we are all at least a bit selfish!)

[Dubey 1,035]

I think your comparison's are a huge stretch at best. But either way, I don't think "Sane, and completely reasonable decision" and "completely selfish decision" are mutually exclusive.

 

I think most women who choose an abortion are put in an incredibly difficult position that I would not wish to experience myself. I think their decision, for the most part, is incredibly difficult, and completely understandable, whichever way they choose to go. With all that said, I still think, with Adoption as a viable option, that Abortion is ultimately a selfish one. A reasonable, incredibly difficult, but ultimately still selfish decision. With that said, I would not think less of a person if I found out they'd had an abortion in the past, no would I scorn anyone who decided on that route.