Us Politics For Betting (Not Talking About Politics)

[serge 904]

Obama has tried repeatedly to stiffen gun laws, much to the general unhappiness of his party, his senate, his congress. They keep shooting him down (no pun intended). He's one of the few elected officials who was willing to say **** the NRA's campaign contributions, this gun shit has to stop.

 

I m not totally against an Australia like ban. But it's pie in the sky , as it would never happen.

[iBeaver 409]

A month ago Bernie tells us it's not Hillary we want leading the nation. Now it's Hillary we should be supporting.

 

I know how politics work but I sort of respect guys like Kasich, Cruz and Bush to sticking to their guns and not backing Trump.

 

The DNC thru Bernie under the bus and he still is sucking up to Hillary and supporting her , which I guess he has to

 

You say you understand how politics work yet you respect what the Repub nominees did which is something that rarely if ever has happened. That might raise a flag that even they know that Trump is not someone who should win this election.

 

Sanders supports Hilary because of a few reasons.

 

One, he's a grown up.

 

Two, he sat down with her and compromises were made and some major Sanders platforms were adopted into her campaign.

 

Three. Sanders went into this to voice his concerns. He didn't think he'd win but he made HUGE changes. Already states are getting rid of super delegates. Heh, he got Wasserman out and will be part of the process to bring in a better and non corrupt leader of the DNC.

 

Fourth,he is well aware, much like those Republican nominees, that Trump is dangerous to this country.

 

Fifth, he's known and worked with Clinton for over 20 years. All candidates say the other candidate would be bad. Whether it's a presidential race, senate race, prime minister race, or a high school class president race.but at the end of the day the vast majority end with the loser supporting the winner. It's how grown ups act.

 

Now you might point out that the 3 Repubs didn't act like grown ups then but they get a pass because they got beat by a 8 yr old.

 

 

Wasserman and the DNC screwed Bernie over. He took care of that yesterday. That chapter is done. Now he's working with Hilary to help her because it helps him make a few of the changes he wants to make. Of course he helps her. His beef was not with her. It was with the DNC.

 

Luckily a few polls show that 90% of Bernie supporters are voting Hilary. Faster than hilary supporters moved over to Obama in 2008. Just a few 19 year old girls still can't wrap their head around what is happening. They'll figure it out eventually.

 

 

On a side note: if the rest of the week goes like it did tonight the post convention bump is going to be huge. Barring any major scandal or speakers like Scott Baio or duck dynasty cast I will predict (for fun don't get all bent out of shape) she will be 5-7 points ahead in the polls.

 

Time for bed. Goodnight.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Saw this today, as a way someone explained their 'liking' trump based solely on their dislike of Hilary:

"I once wanted a coke, but all they had was pepsi, so I set my head on fire'.

 

this was the tweet

 

Damien Owens ‏@OwensDamien 15h15 hours ago

I hear you, Sanders supporters who plan to vote Trump. One time I asked for Coke but they only had Pepsi, so I set fire to my head.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

You say you understand how politics work yet you respect what the Repub nominees did which is something that rarely if ever has happened. That might raise a flag that even they know that Trump is not someone who should win this election.

 

Sanders supports Hilary because of a few reasons.

 

One, he's a grown up.

 

Two, he sat down with her and compromises were made and some major Sanders platforms were adopted into her campaign.

 

Three. Sanders went into this to voice his concerns. He didn't think he'd win but he made HUGE changes. Already states are getting rid of super delegates. Heh, he got Wasserman out and will be part of the process to bring in a better and non corrupt leader of the DNC.

 

Fourth,he is well aware, much like those Republican nominees, that Trump is dangerous to this country.

 

Fifth, he's known and worked with Clinton for over 20 years. All candidates say the other candidate would be bad. Whether it's a presidential race, senate race, prime minister race, or a high school class president race.but at the end of the day the vast majority end with the loser supporting the winner. It's how grown ups act.

 

Now you might point out that the 3 Repubs didn't act like grown ups then but they get a pass because they got beat by a 8 yr old.

 

 

Wasserman and the DNC screwed Bernie over. He took care of that yesterday. That chapter is done. Now he's working with Hilary to help her because it helps him make a few of the changes he wants to make. Of course he helps her. His beef was not with her. It was with the DNC.

 

Luckily a few polls show that 90% of Bernie supporters are voting Hilary. Faster than hilary supporters moved over to Obama in 2008. Just a few 19 year old girls still can't wrap their head around what is happening. They'll figure it out eventually.

 

 

On a side note: if the rest of the week goes like it did tonight the post convention bump is going to be huge. Barring any major scandal or speakers like Scott Baio or duck dynasty cast I will predict (for fun don't get all bent out of shape) she will be 5-7 points ahead in the polls.

 

Time for bed. Goodnight.

 

Benjy Sarlin ‏@BenjySarlin 22m22 minutes ago

Sanders today: "It is easy to boo, but it is harder to look your kids in the face who would be living under a Donald trump presidency."

[mrdannyg 274]

Again though, let's not deal with false equivalencies. So Elizabeth Warren gives a bad speech calling Trump the devil. Trump's supporters and surrogates meanwhile actively call for Clinton to be jailed. Those are not the same thing. One group is exaggerating the opponent, the other is calling for extrajudicial jailing of a political opponent.

 

Kind of like how Warren mocks Trump by questioning his judgment and insulting him, while Trump calls her an extremely racist name. Those things are not the same. If I call Serge a poo-poo face, and he calls me a cheap jew rat, those are not equivalent.

 

That's the hard part about being right-wing these days. You have left-wingers faking photo ops and putting in questionable health care and other social/economic issues you strongly disagree with. But then you have your leaders wanting to ban immigration based on religion. How can you look at those two things and compare them? One is social/economic issues, the other is basic human rights.

 

What scares me most about Donald Trump is that he is absolutely certain that he knows the most and is the best at...everything. That isn't an exaggeration. He's the best speaker, the most knowledgeable about economics, foreign policy, social issues, environmental issues. He has also said he is the most humble. He has said that he considers himself his best advisor. His other main advisors are...his children. How could anyone trust the judgment of someone who tells you they are the absolute best at everything, that they don't need to explain themselves to you, that they are the most humble, and that they are the only one in the world who understands and can solve your problems. He has promised to make things better for every single American and to completely eliminate violent crime on his first day in office. It is impossible not to see that someone who considers themself the absolute best at everything is deluded and incapable of rational decision-making.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

this is stupid, dangerous and did I say stupid

 

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Again though, let's not deal with false equivalencies. So Elizabeth Warren gives a bad speech calling Trump the devil. Trump's supporters and surrogates meanwhile actively call for Clinton to be jailed. Those are not the same thing. One group is exaggerating the opponent, the other is calling for extrajudicial jailing of a political opponent.

 

Kind of like how Warren mocks Trump by questioning his judgment and insulting him, while Trump calls her an extremely racist name. Those things are not the same. If I call Serge a poo-poo face, and he calls me a cheap jew rat, those are not equivalent.

 

you're doing the same crap I called out Serge on. You defend the actions of those you support by pointing at the other side and telling us how they are much worse.

Politics, and especially leaders, should be WAY above this kind of crap. I stand by what I said, Eliz. Warrens speech was beneath her and beneath the stage she was granted, to speak to her party and the nation on why Hilary is the right person to lead the "greatest country on Earth".

You cant have Mrs O telling me its STILL the greatest country, and then watch the leaders of said great place act like 8year olds 5min later.

[mrdannyg 274]

He also said he understands NATO better than anyone in the world, even though he hasn't read most of the documents because, after all, no one has read all the documents.

 

This is another one of those weeny false equivalencies. Will Hillary Clinton be bad at foreign affairs? Maybe! Will she continue the unnecessary Obama/Bush wars that are wasteful and pointless? Maybe! But she won't literally disengage us from our allies.

 

I wonder if there are any strong world powers that might like the United States out of NATO. I don't know...like Russia?

[mrdannyg 274]

I'm not disagreeing with you Arp. They should be above this, way above this. And I've complained plenty about the only pro-Trump arguments being anti-Clinton ones, so you are right to 'call me out.' My point though in this case is that this is the rare time that "well we may be bad but they are worse" is justified, because it crystallizes that we aren't having a 'bad vs bad' discussion, but a 'bad vs let's pull out of NATO as a negotiating tactic" discussion.

[iBeaver 409]

 

 

you're doing the same crap I called out Serge on. You defend the actions of those you support by pointing at the other side and telling us how they are much worse.

Politics, and especially leaders, should be WAY above this kind of crap. I stand by what I said, Eliz. Warrens speech was beneath her and beneath the stage she was granted, to speak to her party and the nation on why Hilary is the right person to lead the "greatest country on Earth".

You cant have Mrs O telling me its STILL the greatest country, and then watch the leaders of said great place act like 8year olds 5min later.

 

Her speech was horrible compared to Cory and Michelle. Bernie as well. She was the low point of an otherwise great night.

[mrdannyg 274]

Seriously, why doesn't Michelle Obama just run for President? The only negative things you could say about her could also be said about Clinton, except that she is legitimately warm and likeable and cool.

 

I would say most people agree that anyone who actually wants to be a politician is probably a terrible person who should not be a politician. So...I think that in the future, politicians shouldn't be able to nominate themselves in any way. Anyone in the country is eligible to be nominated by, say, 1000 online signatures, and if they do get nominated, they can't decline (extreme exceptions may apply, like a child/spouse with a terminal illness or something)

[iBeaver 409]

I look forward to Bill tonight. I love Bill. O don't care about his indiscretions. That's his problem. But being a dirty democrat I love listening to him speak.

[mrdannyg 274]

Hoping he does well, because he has looked old and weird and frazzled at various times in the last few months.

[serge 904]

He also said he understands NATO better than anyone in the world, even though he hasn't read most of the documents because, after all, no one has read all the documents.

 

This is another one of those weeny false equivalencies. Will Hillary Clinton be bad at foreign affairs? Maybe! Will she continue the unnecessary Obama/Bush wars that are wasteful and pointless? Maybe! But she won't literally disengage us from our allies.

 

I wonder if there are any strong world powers that might like the United States out of NATO. I don't know...like Russia?

 

Hillary Clinton had already been bad at foreign affairs. Actually calling her bad is being nice.

[gruven 530]

I have to be honest, and this is NOT a shot at serge or anyone else here. I'm just baffled as to how anyone doing even a minimal amount of research on both sides can't come to the conclusion that trump could possibly turn the United States into a steaming pile of radioactive rubble? Yes, Hilary is bad and possibly evil but trump is potentially safety altering to a population that might elect him? I really don't get how people can't see it. And yet I have reasonable and intelligent friends that, at least initially, backed him.

[iBeaver 409]

His tweet last night directed at Booker is that he thinks Booker is gay.

 

Media didn't tweet it. Trump tweeted it. Plus a lot of other rude, bigoted, disgusting, deplorable, racist, and homophobic things.

 

I will never understand how people rationiize following someone who is so outward with their hate and arrogance.

 

Plus uhhh, he has no policies. His policy is he hates gays, women, Muslims, black people, poor people, and immigrants.

 

I could never look at myself in the mirror for voting for someone like that. I could never respect myself. And I've said that to a few friends face to face and they just made some excuse about they like businessmen. Ok. But it's been proven he is actually pretty bad at being a businessman. Ah well he doesn't mean it. Oh. Yeah. Keep dreaming. Faking racism is just as bad as being racist.

 

This also doesn't mean that I think they should vote for hilary but you can abstain or vote for Gary or Jill. There are options. But yeah, freedom American Pie wooooo.

 

 

Edit: just in case, this post isn't a veiled attack at serge. With all due respect serge, you can't vote so you can rally round anyone you wish . The people I'm talking about are one of Jins classmates parents, a cousin, and a mother in law. Just to clarify.

[serge 904]

I have to be honest, and this is NOT a shot at serge or anyone else here. I'm just baffled as to how anyone doing even a minimal amount of research on both sides can't come to the conclusion that trump could possibly turn the United States into a steaming pile of radioactive rubble? Yes, Hilary is bad and possibly evil but trump is potentially safety altering to a population that might elect him? I really don't get how people can't see it. And yet I have reasonable and intelligent friends that, at least initially, backed him.

 

I say this with all the seriousness in the world. I had a guys night with my friends tonight and we said the exact same things about the liberals supporting Hillary.

 

We can't understand with the constant stuff that comes out about Hillary and the democrats how can anyone with an educated mind support her and the DNC?

 

And please understand I fully respectfully support my friends views, be it democrat, republican or alien Martian. I don't belittle them, ( well I'm doing my best). I think Steve is a smart guy. I think most of you guys who spew the hatred towards Trump are honestly believing what you say, even if it's exaggerated.

 

However both sides are looking at things with blinders. Trump can go and say anything he wants and his supporters won't back down. Documents can come out that Hillary killed 46 people to shut them up and her support will be there. It's such a polarizing race. More than usual.

 

There is a Large percentage of the nation that believes Trump will be a good president. You don't have to agree. There is the same amount of people that believe Hillary will be great, I don't have to agree.

 

 

 

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I have to be honest, and this is NOT a shot at serge or anyone else here. I'm just baffled as to how anyone doing even a minimal amount of research on both sides can't come to the conclusion that trump could possibly turn the United States into a steaming pile of radioactive rubble? Yes, Hilary is bad and possibly evil but trump is potentially safety altering to a population that might elect him? I really don't get how people can't see it. And yet I have reasonable and intelligent friends that, at least initially, backed him.

 

Politics is tribal and you can't really understand American politics without thinking about race.

 

I urge everybody to read this article so they understand the modern history of the political shift and why the Republicans have nominated a White Nationalist in Trump when they were originally the party of Lincoln and the Democrats were the party that appealed to the Southern racists.

 

A Republican intellectual explains why the Republican Party is going to die

 

“Conservative intellectuals, and conservative politicians, have been in kind of a bubble,” Roy says. “We’ve had this view that the voters were with us on conservatism — philosophical, economic conservatism. In reality, the gravitational center of the Republican Party is white nationalism.”

 

Conservative intellectuals, for the most part, are horrified by racism. When they talk about believing in individual rights and equality, they really mean it. Because the Republican Party is the vehicle through which their ideas can be implemented, they need to believe that the party isn’t racist.

 

So they deny the party’s racist history, that its post-1964 success was a direct result of attracting whites disillusioned by the Democrats’ embrace of civil rights. And they deny that to this day, Republican voters are driven more by white resentment than by a principled commitment to the free market and individual liberty.

 

“It’s the power of wishful thinking. None of us want to accept that opposition to civil rights is the legacy that we’ve inherited,” Roy says.

 

He expands on this idea: “It’s a common observation on the left, but it’s an observation that a lot of us on the right genuinely believed wasn’t true — which is that conservatism has become, and has been for some time, much more about white identity politics than it has been about conservative political philosophy. I think today, even now, a lot of conservatives have not come to terms with that problem.”

 

This, Roy believes, is where the conservative intellectual class went astray. By refusing to admit the truth about their own party, they were powerless to stop the forces that led to Donald Trump’s rise. They told themselves, over and over again, that Goldwater’s victory was a triumph.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

and I'm not saying that all or even a majority of Trump supporters are racists but the White Nationalist element can't be ignored

[digitalmonkey 929]

I don't think there's a clearly-defined line between a racist and non-racist. I think a lot of people who don't think they're racist actually have some characteristics of a racist.

 

As for Trump, it doesn't matter if he's actually racist or not...he spews racist comments and feeds racism and that to me is racist behaviour.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression a lot of people who will vote for Trump over HRC are voting for what they believe is the lesser of two evils. Whether he's actually the lesser of two evils is open for debate.

 

Will he be able to do the things he says he will? I don't know, but I would tend to think not.

 

Is he contributing to racism in the USA or is he shining a spotlight on it and showing that's it's more prominent than most people realize or care to admit? I don't know, but racism isn't created overnight or by one orange-man's words.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Nm...Bob's link is better

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I don't think there's a clearly-defined line between a racist and non-racist. I think a lot of people who don't think they're racist actually have some characteristics of a racist.

 

 

 

We all generalize about different groups and that can easily lead into racism or some other ism.

 

I think we really need to acknowledge that racism has actually been the standard during human history and it isn't something that is easy to change. I believe that we're hard wired as a matter of survival to tribalism, our ancient ancestors had to belong to some group in order to survive and other groups were a danger to our survival.

 

A lot of what we call racism is more like otherism and can take many forms. When our otherism is against somebody who is a different race it becomes racism. There were riots in Philadelphia during the 1800's from the Protestant majority against the influx of Irish Catholics. That's bigotry and otherism and while not actually racism it really is exactly the same thing except the people the bigots hated were also White.

[mrdannyg 274]

Serge, you say that Clinton has already been bad at foreign affairs. But do you actually know that, or are you basing that on Republican statements? Basically every foreign installation that she was in favour of, Trump was also in favour of. And as the Secretary of State, her actual ability to make decisions in most of those regards has been hugely exaggerated.

 

To me, the only way you could measure the "quality" of someone's foreign affairs experience is to survey other countries and ask who they would prefer as President. And while I don't have the link handy, they did this recently, and every surveyed country strongly preferred Clinton to Trump (except Russia).

 

As for your friends who think Clinton will reduce the country to smoking rubble, I can't think of much to say that isn't insulting. I guess just that it takes a kind of dissonance I don't understand to see one person who might promote too much health care and free trade vs another who is openly courting white nationalism and say the risk to human rights and the economy is equal. Then again, half the country is voting for someone who says ISIS was created by the Democrats' weakness.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Donald Trump's comments on NATO are the scariest thing he's said

[iBeaver 409]

The same people who say Clinton will destroy us to rubble are the exact same people who said Obama was creating a secret police to gather all the whites and put us in death camps. Still waiting after 7.5 years. I think all us whiteys are safe.

 

 

Edit: also you'll have to try really really hard to convince me that a woman who has worked so hard for helping children and poor people did it all so that she could become president and purposely destroy the world. Yes she is not perfect. Again thinking every president before her was is ridiculous. They all have skeletons. I don't think it's possible to become a President by bring perfect in all your dealings.

 

Also in terms of what Danny was saying, when she was Sec or State out foreign relations approval rating went up 20 points during her term. Not many sec of state achieved that rise of at all. It's just republican brainwashing. Take an hour and do your own research and you ca find that she did a lot of good things. And again not every sec of state was 100/100 on all their dealings and to hold her or anyone else to that standard is just being irrational and biased.

 

 

I've always thought, as I said before, that she is definitely qualified. She knows first hand what the job entails. There is value in that. As some stuff came out I lost a little confidence and Bernie was my man. Once I saw that Bernie wasn't going to make it happen I started going back to reading about Hillary. The best source I found was simply reading the thousands of released emails from the "scandal". I haven't read them all...yet. But I read them everyday. There's no spin attached by either side. It's just her emails. This is not a cold hearted bitch looking to destroy America.not even close. It's very interesting and the more I read the more confident I am in my decision to vote for her. shes tough. Which is good.

 

Liz and I remembered last night that last time we were in DC we got to sit in on congress and what we got to see was her arguing on the senate floor for medical help for first responders and clean up crews at 9/11 who were breathing in all that dust. Funny how she's so evil yet she was arguing with two other republicans who didn't believe they should be treated. Such an evil evil woman. :eye roll:

 

Again I know she isn't perfect but she also is nowhere close to being a monster. Did you ever think that maybe she has to try harder because she's a female? I do. I think she's had to make some bad decisions to get ahead, decisions a man might not of had to make. But I admit I could be way off on that, just a thought.

 

Carry on.

 

 

Edit 2: I hate typing on iPhone. I know I'm getting old by all the mistakes. Or my fingers are simply getting fatter. Can't be bothered to go fix them all. Sorry