Us Politics For Betting (Not Talking About Politics)

[serge 904]

I had heard about him over the years, but mostly because he was independent senator who pissed off a lot of people, and I always have a soft spot for indy's. (PEROT FOR PRESIDENT!)

But even me, I figured he had no chance and was too "out there" to win.

I didnt know much about him, a few months back I watched some things, and thought....damn, this guy is a pretty attractive candidate. Then I read some more things about him, saw how he was portrayed, and thought....fodder for the Clinton freight train. They are going to run right over him.

 

I have to admit, Dubeys video got my intrigue about Bernie back. Might watch more tonight than I had planned.

 

The people against Bernie (right or wrong) attack him for a few reasons..He was mainly unsuccesful at everything he tried in his early life..I also heard he is the poorest of all Senators and has a lot of personal credit card debt of $65000....Maybe thats a selling point for some as he is up against multi millionaires and billionaires..

 

I really dont care about that stuff..I care that he has utopian ideologies that cant work...Free post secondary education for everyone..The money fairy is supposed to pay for these socialists initiatives..

 

The way to prosper is to create jobs and keep jobs in the US, a proposition I amongst others trust that Trump has a better chance to do then the existing party in power.

[Dubey 1,035]

regarding "unrealistic policies".

 

 

What percentage of campaign ideas ever see the light of day in an actual presidency? I think the thought, meaning, and idea behind the policies is important. I also think the ideologies of the POTUS do trickle down to the public in a non-meaningless way. Having a president who wants to spend less money on wars and more on actually improving society is important, even if the details may need to be tweaked a bit in actual practice. Like I said, I don't think a gentle tug to the left is a bad thing right now.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Can I ask you what you mean by "valid"?

 

Is it based only on Christianity and the Bible, or is anyones religious beliefs valid? What if my religion believed black people should be slaves, is that my beliefs and I should be allowed to believe whatever I want? At what point does religious interfere with others' rights?

 

religious beliefs aren't an excuse for bigotry

 

just because your particular fairy tail makes you believe something doesn't give you the right to impose your views on others

 

I'm especially down on religious institutions today with the Catholic Church making that sadistic pain fetishist Mother Teresa a Saint. She was truly evil from the suffering she caused those she was supposed to be caring for to the money and support she took from vile Dictator's like the Duvalier's in Haiti and then she used that money to open branches of her personal sect across the World instead of on the poor and sick.

[serge 904]

Can I ask you what you mean by "valid"?

 

Is it based only on Christianity and the Bible, or is anyones religious beliefs valid? What if my religion believed black people should be slaves, is that my beliefs and I should be allowed to believe whatever I want? At what point does religious interfere with others' rights?

 

 

I'm pretty sure "our" church would tell me Im supposed to not believe in gay marriage. In fact, im 100% sure of it.

Any yet I still go to that church at Easter/Christmas/weddings, am I a hypocrite?

 

(SORRY GUYS, I know im taking a thread thats already off the topic, way off the 2nd topic)

 

Valid in that in the bible and the church is against it..Valid for them...Doesnt mean its right or wrong.

 

I am in the same boat..We maybe hypocrites in some peoples eyes yes..

 

Its like I have a lot of Muslim friends that dont eat pork because of "their religion"..However they will smoke , drink and gamble...Which I am sure is not what is thought in Islam..Are they hypocrites? Maybe..Not for me to judge.

[Dubey 1,035]

re: Gay Marriage.

 

I'll start by saying that I think religions being against gay Marriage is outrageous on its own. With that said, just because you personally don't approve gives you no right to impose that view on others. Gay people getting married literally has zero repercussions for anybody. It is just allowing people to be happy. Why the F would anyone care so much about something that LITERALLY DOES NOT AFFECT THEM IN ANY WAY?

 

You can argue that religion is a "valid" reason for believing Gay marriage is wrong. I'll disagree but I'm not going to argue too hard against it. But to suggest that religion is a valid reason for actively opposing gay marriage, then you are just flat out wrong.

[serge 904]

regarding "unrealistic policies".

 

 

What percentage of campaign ideas ever see the light of day in an actual presidency? I think the thought, meaning, and idea behind the policies is important. I also think the ideologies of the POTUS do trickle down to the public in a non-meaningless way. Having a president who wants to spend less money on wars and more on actually improving society is important, even if the details may need to be tweaked a bit in actual practice. Like I said, I don't think a gentle tug to the left is a bad thing right now.

 

I dont think that is the issue...They may not, but the way we can judge our candidates is what plan they have to get elected and what they promise..They may not , or not able to do it, thats a different issue..

 

When the Republican candidates say they will abolish the IRS, Common Core and Trump says he will make better deals with China and Mexico on Trade..I have to believe he will try...I think its attainable and makes sense...

 

However knowing a little bit about economics a $15 minimum wage will be a disaster..

[iBeaver 409]

Just a dumb story but a look into a small group of people and what they think.

 

I used to play in a monthly poker game but it died out and now we do it maybe 2 times a year. One of the guys died in Jan so we had a memorial game Saturday.

 

10 people. 2 democrats(me included) 7 republicans and 1 who doesn't give a shit.

 

At one point the election finally came up. Was hoping it wouldn't because one guy almost killed the poker games for good when he lost his shot and almost started a fight during a game during Obamas 2nd run. Was sure he was going to the the obv Trump supporter.

 

Good to see all 10 were not Trump supporters.

 

3 of the Republicans voted for Sanders

4 voted for K-sick

2 dems voted Sanders

1 still didn't give a shit

 

All 7 republicans admitted they would vote Hildog if against Trump or Cruz.

 

3 of the 7 said they'd vote Sanders over any Repub

 

The other 4 said they'd vote for Rubio or K-Sick over Hilary or Sanders.

 

2 dems said they would vote Hildog

 

The 1 guy continued through the night to not give a shit. Lol

 

 

yes I know small sample size but good to know that people I know who are life long republican supporters are being rational about this.

 

The funny thing is that I've now heard it a few places, Liz had pointed it out, a couple of the guys said it, and I've read it before, that if you really listen to Trump and filter out the rhetoric and childishness, Trump sounds like a Democrat.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Valid in that in the bible and the church is against it..Valid for them...Doesnt mean its right or wrong.

 

I am in the same boat..We maybe hypocrites in some peoples eyes yes..

 

Its like I have a lot of Muslim friends that dont eat pork because of "their religion"..However they will smoke , drink and gamble...Which I am sure is not what is thought in Islam..Are they hypocrites? Maybe..Not for me to judge.

 

I have no problem with people making personal choices for themselves based on their faith. One of my best friends is a devout Muslim who only eats Halal and fasts etc and has been to Mecca a couple times. But he is understanding of others and doesn't try to impose his beliefs or look down on people who differ in their views.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

religious beliefs aren't an excuse for bigotry

 

just because your particular fairy tail makes you believe something doesn't give you the right to impose your views on others

 

I'm especially down on religious institutions today with the Catholic Church making that sadistic pain fetishist Mother Teresa a Saint. She was truly evil from the suffering she caused those she was supposed to be caring for to the money and support she took from vile Dictator's like the Duvalier's in Haiti and then she used that money to open branches of her personal sect across the World instead of on the poor and sick.

 

Eh, if you dont care about the religion, who cares about who they honour. Its like the KKK thing, since I dont really believe in them or their quality, why do I care who they supposedly back.

 

My personal thought is that I dont give a flying fck what your religion says, and you can believe whatever you want in your own space. Dont impose your views on my life, just as you said Bob.

Its why Im really disgusted by people who fight against things like gay marriage, or gay anything. Why are we even talking about others' sex life? It seems as inconsequential as the colour of pants they wear or the type of fruit they eat. Irrelevant, go do whatever.

 

Honestly, if the biggest argument for being against something is "its in my bible", your argument is as listless as me making up my own religion tomorrow and decreeing a whole bunch of crap no one cares about.

 

**Serge none of this is aimed at you. I know sometimes you think things are, just because you answered my question does not mean I am "arguing" against a belief I think you have. Its just a general rant of mine about people who believe this way.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

 

However knowing a little bit about economics a $15 minimum wage will be a disaster..

 

whack a doodle policies like abolishing the IRS or the insane tax cuts all the Republican are advocating would actually be the disaster.

 

Increase the minimum wage (with more local variance, New York City and rural Mississippi shouldn't have the same minimum wage), increase the earned income tax credit and increase taxes on the rich.

[serge 904]

whack a doodle policies like abolishing the IRS or the insane tax cuts all the Republican are advocating would actually be the disaster.

 

Increase the minimum wage (with more local variance, New York City and rural Mississippi shouldn't have the same minimum wage), increase the earned income tax credit and increase taxes on the rich.

 

Real world example.

 

My father in law has a large factory in Fresno. If the minimum wage went to $15, they will cut several employees from the factory and increase the price of their product by a significant amount..They have already discussed scenarios if something like that was to happen...Thats just a smallish company with only 25 workers...

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

ya, but if Trump loses to the commie, then at least that factory gets to hire illegal workers from Mexico for about $6 an hour, so it will all even out.

[Dubey 1,035]

Since we are off topic anyway. My thoughts on religion:

 

I think the institution of religion in almost every instance is corrupt to the very core. Throughout history, religion has been about power and money moreso than it has been about God.

 

With that said, I think the ideals, and community of religion does a lot of good for a lot of people. I don't believe in any god, but I actually have a lot of respect for people who are devoutly religious while also being accepting of differing worldviews. I have zero respect for people who try to impose their religious views, or look down on those with views different than theirs.

 

 

And just to cover my own butt I believe that if I am wrong, and there truly is an all powerful and all knowing omnipotent god, then he must be smart enough to recognize the improbability of his own existence, and will not punish those in the afterlife who did not believe.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

lol @ cover your butt

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Real world example.

 

My father in law has a large factory in Fresno. If the minimum wage went to $15, they will cut several employees from the factory and increase the price of their product by a significant amount..They have already discussed scenarios if something like that was to happen...Thats just a smallish company with only 25 workers...

 

this is a really good article on the effects of raising the minimum wage

 

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/inequality/the-effects-of-raising-the-minimum-wage

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Since we are off topic anyway. My thoughts on religion:

 

I think the institution of religion in almost every instance is corrupt to the very core. Throughout history, religion has been about power and money moreso than it has been about God.

 

With that said, I think the ideals, and community of religion does a lot of good for a lot of people. I don't believe in any god, but I actually have a lot of respect for people who are devoutly religious while also being accepting of differing worldviews. I have zero respect for people who try to impose their religious views, or look down on those with views different than theirs.

 

 

And just to cover my own butt I believe that if I am wrong, and there truly is an all powerful and all knowing omnipotent god, then he must be smart enough to recognize the improbability of his own existence, and will not punish those in the afterlife who did not believe.

 

Jesus wants you to give money so that Creflo Dollar can have a Gulfstream

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-siebold/the-biggest-scam-of-all-p_b_7521170.html

[iBeaver 409]

raising the min wage to a higher number ($15 is just a talking point, not the actual number. Most say it'll be like $11) will increase consumer spending. Increased spending (demand) will increase manufactures revenue allowing them to continue to pay their employees and keep prices the same and in some cases lessen the cost of their product. Plus paying employees more has been proven to increase production and a happier work environment.

 

I'm going to grab my broad brush now and say that most Repubs don't like raising the min wage because they want to keep the poor poor and nothing anyone can say will change my view on that Sorry.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I'm going to grab my broad brush now and say that most Repubs don't like raising the min wage because they want to keep the poor poor and nothing anyone can say will change my view on that Sorry.

 

there is a classic trade off between labor and capital in economics. Marxist ideology is all about the battle between the two.

 

For many many reasons from tax policy to more international trade to patent law to zoning law to labor laws capital has done better than labor for the last 40 years, It's why there is so much income inequality. Rubio has proposed abolishing capital gains taxes completely for example which is what the plutocrats who fund the traditional Republican Party would benefit from.

[serge 904]

If we cant keep jobs in the US and lose them to Mexico and China and other cheap labor countries, what makes you think a higher minimum wage will help us...

[iBeaver 409]

If we cant keep jobs in the US and lose them to Mexico and China and other cheap labor countries, what makes you think a higher minimum wage will help us...

 

Well good thing there's only one candidate who wants to raise the min wage and stop sending jobs overseas and defeating the TPP trade deal. Whew.

[Zach6668 513]

 

 

Like Steve said lot of people believe its goes against their religion..Which is a valid argument..

 

 

No. No it isn't.

 

Edit - wow I'm late on this one. am I the only one who works afternoons???

[serge 904]

Rubio is done. Stick a fork in him.

[Dubey 1,035]

Not a good day for Bernie today

[mrdannyg 274]

Literally every major economist would argue that Trump's plans would be far more economically disastrous than even Bernie's. He wants to reduce everyone's taxes, cut off trade partners and milk overseas cash from corporations. The immediate and long-term effect of all those things is fewer jobs, and the only source of income (taxing corporations international cash) is hopeless, since they'll just redistribute it in such a way as to avoid paying most of it.

 

Serge's father-in-law has a factory in Fresno. What happens to those employees when his sale price or cost of imports costs 20% more because of tariffs? What happens if he had a bigger factory with a billion dollars in cash in Ireland, and all of a sudden they had to give up half that? Those employees are getting fired just the same, the only difference is the government is collecting more money and the remaining employees aren't getting paid any more. And I think we can all agree that money is more likely to be spent well in the hands of people than the government.

 

Here's the thing about losing jobs to Mexico and China...when they produce stuff cheaper, it also costs less! Which means people have more money to spend! Which means they buy more things, are more likely to contribute to businesses, and other factors that produce jobs. Hooray! Economics 101 is that when something is being produced by the cheapest producer, everyone wins.

[mrdannyg 274]

As for the Republican stuff, I literally lost sleep over it last night. 90% of Republicans are unhappy with the current government. I guess they don't like historically low unemployment, interest rates and gas prices. 65-75% support a temporary ban on any Muslims entering the country, which is such a ridiculous prospect that I can't decide whether to write 1000 words on it, or no more. Guess I'll just point out that more people have been killed in each of the past 5 years in the United States by toddlers than by terrorists, and that more have been killed by white terrorists (Sandy Hook, Aurora, Charleston) than by Muslims. Oh, and the Muslims that did commit terrorist acts? They were generally citizens.

 

Based on the 65-75% figure, we can estimate there are something like 100-150 million Americans who would deny people the ability to even enter the country (that includes just on vacation!!) based on nothing more than their religion - a religion that comprises something like 1.5 billion people (20% of the world). If that number was 10 million, I would be terrified. For it actually to represent a huge portion of the United States suggests to me that, as a group, they are so far beyond the pale of rational or reasonable thought that I'm legitimately scared. And since John always (correctly) shames us by pointing out that it isn't all Americans, I don't want to ignore that the number is still probably less than half. There are probably 150 million Americans who wouldn't support that, and that's great! But it is still just too pervasive - that is almost half the country supporting something that anywhere else in the world would be considered dangerous extremism (not to mention stupid, since religion really can't be proven).

 

And if people think I'm exaggerating about how scary that is, let's not pretend it only effects people going on vacation or immigrating to a country where they're unwelcome, but think about how that effects the approximately 3 million Muslims living in the States and opportunities for others.

 

Here's a real-life example - I have a friend named Ahmed. His last name would also sound Muslim/Middle Eastern (born in Egypt). He is a Canadian permanent resident and would likely be soon eligible for citizenship, but his wife's family (originally Lebanese) lives in the U.S. and that's where they want to go. So Ahmed sent about 20 applications to American companies who often hire foreigners - jobs he was certainly qualified for, but not ridiculously overqualified either. In the first paragraph of his cover letter and email, he introduces himself as an Egyptian, a devout Christian, and holding a Master's degree from the top technical school in Egypt. He received exactly 1 form reply, and 0 interviews. He then sent out the exact same application, but used a common European-sounding name, still noted his devout Christianity (which is true), and changed his degree to an undergrad degree from a secondary local European university. He received 19 replies and no less than 12 formal interview requests. The hate and the fear go deep, and I will absolutely call bullshit if it doesn't regularly effect the lives of any Muslim (or Muslim-seeming to people who don't know anything about Muslims) unfortunate enough to be currently living in the United States.