Zach6668 513 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 I mean, let me ask you Arp. What kind of city do you WANT to live in? What kind of city do you want your son to live in? Grandchildren? Etc? Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I mean, let me ask you Arp. What kind of city do you WANT to live in? What kind of city do you want your son to live in? Grandchildren? Etc? An affordable one. I'm not trying to be an ass, thats my honest answer. I think we are overtaxed in Canada, and its detrimental to our long term sustainability. I dont mind social programs, and I know there has to be mass transit, but I also know we live in Canada, and a car free life is not realistic to me. I think bike lanes cost money. I think having more bike lanes than what we currently have now will be detrimental. I think to move things/people around, you need less bike lanes, not more. I dont think walkability is a realistic thing in our weather climate. Can you tell me what city exists, that you would like Toronto to look more like? What are we missing now that they have? Link to post Share on other sites
Babying 613 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 http://www.walkscore...ronto-on-canada Link for where I live on the walk, transit and bike score scores for me walk 95 transit 89 bike 64 Link to post Share on other sites
Babying 613 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 If we want more bike lanes live in china Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 An affordable one. I'm not trying to be an ass, thats my honest answer. I think we are overtaxed in Canada, and its detrimental to our long term sustainability. I dont mind social programs, and I know there has to be mass transit, but I also know we live in Canada, and a car free life is not realistic to me. I think bike lanes cost money. I think having more bike lanes than what we currently have now will be detrimental. I think to move things/people around, you need less bike lanes, not more. I dont think walkability is a realistic thing in our weather climate. Can you tell me what city exists, that you would like Toronto to look more like? What are we missing now that they have? Hmmm... been thinking about this for a bit, and I don't really know if I have an answer. I like Toronto a lot as it is. I haven't even had a chance to explore many of the fantastic neighbourhoods. I've never been to the Danforth, I've never really spent time in Liberty Village, etc. A neighbourhood that I'd like to live in is one that is near higher order transit, near a grocery store, near a few restaurants and bars, shops, etc. I like my neighbourhood now, it's about that. But it's about as far away from pure 100% walkability as I'd like to go. Affordability is obviously an important key. That's something I hope to explore further when I take a housing course next semester. The problem with downtown is it tends to price out all but the most wealthy, which is problematic. I think affordable housing is probably one of the biggest challenges planners will face in the next few decades. My area is pretty affordable. The thing is, Toronto has a lot of walkable neighbourhoods. It has a lot of good transit. I'd like my transit pass to basically be a key to the city (I'd be willing to pay more, maybe even double, if we had a more complete network of higher order transit, like a NYC, Barcelona, London, Paris, even Montreal). I don't really have a problem with Toronto. It's one of the few cities that has a lot of choice for everyone. It's certainly a car-optional city. I think, maybe where we found some disconnect, is that my discussion with Serge was almost entirely theoretical, and not necessarily about Toronto, though it was obviously used as an example, since we're familiar with it. I probably wasn't clear on that. Link to post Share on other sites
Babying 613 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 The wind is crazy tonight. Glad we are protected by the condo buildings Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 The wind is crazy tonight. Glad we are protected by the condo buildings lol Zach, I think part of what you said is what I am trying to argue. That all those factors that you are looking for, close to transit, close to ____+____ and nice hood, and nice this and that....well, that all comes with a price. You cant have a whole city of affordable housing that also allows you to walk to anything you need. If it exists, I would love to see it, but I dont think its feasible. The beauty of Toronto, for now, is that it actually is a reasonable affordable city to live in. Almost any such large city that I have ever been to all come with costs unattainable for 99% of the population. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Yeah, that's a big issue facing places like Manhattan and Vancouver. We have to find a way to serve lower income neighbourhoods with quality transit, though. I don't know how to achieve this. Forcing the lower class to be reliant on owning a car is probably perpetuating their economic problems (cars are insanely expensive to own and maintain). If they had an alternative, and I don't mean a 60 minute bus ride that meanders up and down side streets before reaching the destination, they would have a better chance to participate in society and achieve some sort of upward mobility. Another huge problem (and one that reflects the demand for transit) is that as soon as you build higher order transit in a neighbourhood, the cost of living there (rent) tends to increase, pushing these people even further out of the way, which is unfortunate. This is why I was all for that development that mixes market and affordable housing down by the waterfront. I don't know if subsidizing housing is the answer, but it's at least an attempt at a solution. I don't think we can let the free market run wild on something as important as housing and advance as a society. I've just started thinking about this though, I don't have any answers at all. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I don't know if subsidizing housing is the answer, but it's at least an attempt at a solution. I don't think we can let the free market run wild on something as important as housing and advance as a society. I've just started thinking about this though, I don't have any answers at all. I think people who have had much more time than you haven't come up with any answers either. Lets hope you're the one. Subsidized affordable housing bothers me, when they try to put it on the waterfront. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 I think it would be great if it was interspersed everywhere, so that the people who are forced (I know, I'm sure some abuse it) into the circumstances where they qualify for subsidized housing (I can't think of what they call it)... anyways, so that they don't feel segregated from the rest of society. We all know how well those housing projects worked out like Regent Park, Igoe-Pruitt in St. Louis, another famous on in Chicago... they were a disaster. It's obviously idealistic, but it would be nice if different classes of people could live together harmoniously. That would offer the most upward mobility, which really, is the original American Dream (start from nothing, work hard, make better life for your children). Suburbia is the American Dream 2.0. Those gated communities of the very upper class usually have a net negative effect on society (really don't want to get into this, lol). Link to post Share on other sites
gruven 530 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I think, as alluded to earlier in this thread, that this whole (good) debate should be tempered by asking yourself, 'if I stop thinking about ME, what's best for my kids' Link to post Share on other sites
Babying 613 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I think, as alluded to earlier in this thread, that this whole (good) debate should be tempered by asking yourself, 'if I stop thinking about ME, what's best for my kids' good point. That is the reason we moved back to the city. For our kids Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I think, as alluded to earlier in this thread, that this whole (good) debate should be tempered by asking yourself, 'if I stop thinking about ME, what's best for my kids' Trust me, that's all I think about. My wishes are hardly even considered. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 See walk ability might be important to some. I couldn't care less about the studies. Its just not something that's important to me and my family. I like to see how these people walk to do their groceries with two kids and strollers etc. is it an economic thing? Health thing? I'm not interested. I can get my exercise elsewhere. My kids in my opinion are in more activities and get more exercise because I live in the suburbs. Like Arp said I believe Zach to be in the minority. Especially in Toronto Oh ya try walking more than 15 min today with the wind and minus 20 feeling cold. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Ya, I can't recall if I mentioned it above but Serge's point reminded me about how you deal with the weather, especially when you pick up things. Don't get me wrong, there is an ideal way I wish life was, and the reality of today. Ideally, I wish I lived in San Diego and didn't have to work. But I live here, and my work requires a car, and a million other reasons why i can't live without a car and walk to everywhere. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Can you imagine a mortgage broker, real estate agent that didn't have a car? That would be one broke mortgage broker. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Like, if your job requires you to have a car, you have a car. A car-optional city can't be that difficult of a concept. When you can't pickup a weeks worth of groceries for your family all at once, you shop in smaller loads. You probably start getting fresher food, maybe hit up the farmers market in the summer on the way home from work and grab just enough for dinner tonight and lunches tomorrow. You know? You adapt. This is the point I'm trying to make, specifically with you, Serge. You're very set in your ways and there's nothing wrong with that. You don't have to worry about your neighbourhood changing, probably in your lifetime. Your lifestyle won't have to change at all, at least not due to the way you interact your built environment. But then you keep talking about all these things you'd hate to do without a car. That's fine, but you have to be able to see how it's possible, don't you? How people function perfectly fine without the car? If you live without a car, you don't have the same habits as someone who has relied on a car for 3 decades. You adapt. You don't drive to look at the green space, because it's within walking distance. You don't drive to McDonald's to go through the drive thru, you walk to it, or you want to the corner, or the market, or whatever. It becomes as engrained in your way of life as your attachment to your car. People have different desires. And I don't know why you people keep bringing up minority and majority. That has nothing to do with anything. There are several kinds of religions, we don't completely disregard one person's religion because it's not the majority. Why do people who like walkable neighbourhoods somehow lose credibility because you think I'm in the minority? We must conform to your world? I don't get it. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 See walk ability might be important to some. I couldn't care less about the studies. Its just not something that's important to me and my family. (1) I like to see how these people walk to do their groceries with two kids and strollers etc. is it an economic thing? Health thing? I'm not interested. I can get my exercise elsewhere. (2) My kids in my opinion are in more activities and get more exercise because I live in the suburbs. (3) Like Arp said I believe Zach to be in the minority. Especially in Toronto (4) Oh ya try walking more than 15 min today with the wind and minus 20 feeling cold. (1) Answered in previous post. (2) I hope that's true, and that's great for you and your family. I don't see what that has to do with OTHER PEOPLE who may envision themselves living their life a different way. (3) Addressed that in the previous post as well. (4) Well, walkability is usually measure with things that are within a kilometer or so, which is about a 10-15 minute walk, depending on your speed. I do it every day, even if it's cold out. You wear a jacket. Frankly, if it's too cold, you take the bus. It's not hard to deal with 5 cold days a year. Link to post Share on other sites
iBeaver 409 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 That is what is great about a car optional city. You have the "option". If I lived in a car optional city we would own 1 car, not 2. That would save us a lot. One less car payment, one less car to put gas in, and one less car to insure. They keep talking about a light rail system for the metro area but with money issues in Detroit (where the rail lines would all feed into) and the car companies always lobbying against it, well I doubt it would ever happen. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Ya, I can't recall if I mentioned it above but Serge's point reminded me about how you deal with the weather, especially when you pick up things. Don't get me wrong, there is an ideal way I wish life was, and the reality of today. Ideally, I wish I lived in San Diego and didn't have to work. But I live here, and my work requires a car, and a million other reasons why i can't live without a car and walk to everywhere. The same way you deal with having to get into a frozen car, brush the snow, scrape the ice off. You adapt, you start it early, you use a smart phone app to time the bus so you wait for less than a minute outside. You grab what you need quickly on the way home. For me, I get off the subway, I go through a tunnel across to the Metro, I pick up what I need, I go back through the tunnel, back through the subway station to the bus bays, only then do I hit fresh air. There are screens there that show you how long until your bus comes, they are accurate. You wait in the heat until it comes, then you get on a heated bus. You get off at your stop, which is rarely more than a couple hundred metres from your house, and you go into your warm home. And should I bother mentioning the PATH system that covers a huge portion of downtown, that was built specifically to help pedestrians escape the weather (be it extreme heat or cold)? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 That is what is great about a car optional city. You have the "option". If I lived in a car optional city we would own 1 car, not 2. That would save us a lot. One less car payment, one less car to put gas in, and one less car to insure. They keep talking about a light rail system for the metro area but with money issues in Detroit (where the rail lines would all feed into) and the car companies always lobbying against it, well I doubt it would ever happen. I bet if you did that, you'd find that you'd drive your one car even less than you do now. Once people start to feel the freedom that comes with ditching the car, their VMT (vehicle miles traveled) tends to drop dramatically. Lots of families go 2 cars to 1, then find out that they barely use their 1 car, and decide to sell it and sign up for the car sharing or whatever. Even taking the odd taxi might be cheaper, depending on how much you drive. Or if you need a car for a weekend, you rent one. Usually far cheaper than paying to maintain and store your own car. There's nothing wrong with living in a walkable neighborhood and keeping a car. Lots of people do. There are certain things that just aren't within transit's reach. Car sharing programs are trying to fill that gap though, where instead of paying to maintain and store a car, you just use one when you need it. It's about as convenient anything else. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Anyways, I'm going to bed. I had fun in this discussion all day long. Peace. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I have no idea where this discussion is going, because at this point we seem to be talking about how the bus has a good schedule and how it's hard to scrape ice off of a car. Lol. I'm not trying to convince you that YOU need a car, I'm saying in my life, I need one and my wife needs one, and my family needs 2 cars. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Yeah, that works for you. I was in the mindset of Serge's posts, perhaps, where he couldn't fathom other people living differently than him. Link to post Share on other sites
Babying 613 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 We have 2 vehicles and I am the only driver. Our walk rate is 95 and transit is 89. We still prefer to drive. Link to post Share on other sites
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