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I am not arguing the fact that it might be a generational thing...If I was 25 i would probably agree with the things that Zach says..

 

I would of loved to live downtown...go around in subways and street cars...If I worked downtown, why would I need a car...

 

I just have a hard time believing a married couple in their 30s and 40s who have 2.1 kids living in the downtown core.

 

Not Bayview and york Mills, not the Danforth...But DOWNTOWN

 

For one, I don't think the birth rate is 2.1 anymore. I think it's substantially lower. You'll see. It's a generational thing for sure. You grew up in the prime of the auto era, as did your parents. It was a part of your life. More and more, young people are rejecting the idea of I moving to the suburbs to have kids and choosing to expose their children to the multicultural, vibrant downtowns and neighborhoods surrounding the core. They promote a significantly healthier lifestyle, which is a huge plus it people in my generation and younger. This is what is trending, and sorry to say, but given how long it takes to get anything actually done with regards to city building, cities are being planned around the trends that younger people are following, not people in their 40s or 50s.

 

It's been universally recognized by experts and planners that building cities on the scale of the car result in sterile, more dangerous cities. Best practices are to build to the human scale. That's not utopia, that's experts agreeing on how to promote the common good.

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I think when some of you have older teenagers you'll start thinking more about how convenient transit is for them.

 

My Step Daughters are 16 and 18 and both still in high school. A huge attraction to where we live at Kennedy and Sheppard is that there is a lot in walking distance and they are one bus away from 2 different subway lines, it's one bus to two major malls in Scarborough Town Center and Fairview Mall and it's one bus to Pacific Mall for them.

 

Transit from here to College or University for them is also not horrible for the future.

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You are going to make a wonderful NDP voter next year. :).

 

Your reliance on big government is going to get a wonderful splash of cold water once you start making money and see where your tax dollars go. I look forward to still being friends with you when you turn 40 and us reliving this conversation.

 

Interested in seeing that too, actually. I think I'll be ok with it. I think it's a North American thing. Middle aged people in Scandinavia seem to be alright with paying high taxes in order to enjoy some of the most vibrant and livable cities in the world, with healthier populations. I don't think any of this is some sort of far out utopic dream, it's reality elsewhere and we can strive for better. Not striving for better is selling ourselves short.

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I think when some of you have older teenagers you'll start thinking more about how convenient transit is for them.

 

My Step Daughters are 16 and 18 and both still in high school. A huge attraction to where we live at Kennedy and Sheppard is that there is a lot in walking distance and they are one bus away from 2 different subway lines, it's one bus to two major malls in Scarborough Town Center and Fairview Mall and it's one bus to Pacific Mall for them.

 

Transit from here to College or University for them is also not horrible for the future.

 

Zach doesnt agree with the Scarborough Subway system

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Zach doesnt agree with the Scarborough Subway system

 

Zach likes subways he just thinks that the money would have been better spent building an LRT in Scarbough and making something like the Don Mills subway the priority.

 

In a pure planning sense that is without question the right way to go but there are political realities and the reality is that the 25 % of Toronto who live in Scarborough feel like they have been massively short changed over the years and they need their's too.

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For one, I don't think the birth rate is 2.1 anymore. I think it's substantially lower. You'll see. It's a generational thing for sure. You grew up in the prime of the auto era, as did your parents. It was a part of your life. More and more, young people are rejecting the idea of I moving to the suburbs to have kids and choosing to expose their children to the multicultural, vibrant downtowns and neighborhoods surrounding the core. They promote a significantly healthier lifestyle, which is a huge plus it people in my generation and younger. This is what is trending, and sorry to say, but given how long it takes to get anything actually done with regards to city building, cities are being planned around the trends that younger people are following, not people in their 40s or 50s.

 

It's been universally recognized by experts and planners that building cities on the scale of the car result in sterile, more dangerous cities. Best practices are to build to the human scale. That's not utopia, that's experts agreeing on how to promote the common good.

 

Hmm...Multicultural, vibrant maybe..But definetely not more safe...And i will argue definetely not healthier....

 

The argument you seem to have is your Toronto doesnt include the suburbs..never mind Pickering, Oakville, Whitby and Mississauga..You dont even want to include Scarborough, Markham, Unionville...The GTA is full of vibrant "suburbs" as you call it...Lots of festivals, multicultural activites. One of the biggest multicultural(chinese) malls are north of the city..

 

We should equate a downtown citizen and a suburban citizen the same. Your Toronto doesnt include "us"..Which is the sad part of your argument.

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Interested in seeing that too, actually. I think I'll be ok with it. I think it's a North American thing. Middle aged people in Scandinavia seem to be alright with paying high taxes in order to enjoy some of the most vibrant and livable cities in the world, with healthier populations. I don't think any of this is some sort of far out utopic dream, it's reality elsewhere and we can strive for better. Not striving for better is selling ourselves short.

 

Ok, now your talking about something totally different.

 

I have no problems with higher taxes, in fact, I think we need higher taxes. I have a problem with where so much of it is wasted and misappropriated.

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Hmm...Multicultural, vibrant maybe..But definetely not more safe...And i will argue definetely not healthier....

 

The argument you seem to have is your Toronto doesnt include the suburbs..never mind Pickering, Oakville, Whitby and Mississauga..You dont even want to include Scarborough, Markham, Unionville...The GTA is full of vibrant "suburbs" as you call it...Lots of festivals, multicultural activites. One of the biggest multicultural(chinese) malls are north of the city..

 

We should equate a downtown citizen and a suburban citizen the same. Your Toronto doesnt include "us"..Which is the sad part of your argument.

 

way way way way healthier because people walk more.

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way way way way healthier because people walk more.

 

Ok..The amount of time I save not waiting for a bus or a subway, I can utilize on the treadmill

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Ok, now your talking about something totally different.

 

I have no problems with higher taxes, in fact, I think we need higher taxes. I have a problem with where so much of it is wasted and misappropriated.

 

That's really the big thing for me too. I'm willing to pay taxes to build the necessary infrastructure and provide the services needed it's the waste and spending on things that government, especially local governments shouldn't be involved in that I have the problem with.

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More and more, young people are rejecting the idea of I moving to the suburbs to have kids and choosing to expose their children to the multicultural, vibrant downtowns and neighborhoods surrounding the core.

 

Can I ask, who does these studies for your research at your school that says downtown is more "multicultural" and "vibrant". What is this based on?

 

Can someone tell me how downtown is more multicultural than uptown Toronto?

And exactly what quantifies as vibrant?

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Can I ask, who does these studies for your research at your school that says downtown is more "multicultural" and "vibrant". What is this based on?

 

Can someone tell me how downtown is more multicultural than uptown Toronto?

And exactly what quantifies as vibrant?

 

Its in the book:

 

Bike Lanes for Life

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Overall poorer health of suburban vs downtown residents has been proven in dozens, maybe hundreds of academic papers. The negative mental and health benefits of automobile dependence have been proven in dozens, maybe hundreds of academic papers.

 

I think I can probably put up a firm argument that living in an established downtown neighbourhood is safer than the suburbs, or at least as safe. For one, eyes on the street = safety. The most dangerous downtowns are ones with no street life (see Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs).

 

Furthermore, the most dangerous thing you do every day is get in your car. If you live without dependence on the car, you certainly lower your changes of being hurt or killed significantly. The fewer miles you drive, the less risk of injury or death.

 

I would argue too that roads are safer in downtowns, for pedestrians, because drivers have to be aware of them. In the suburbs, drivers tend to be on autopilot a little more because pedestrians are few and far between.

 

Additionally, the health benefits I spoke of above.

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Can I ask, who does these studies for your research at your school that says downtown is more "multicultural" and "vibrant". What is this based on?

 

Can someone tell me how downtown is more multicultural than uptown Toronto?

And exactly what quantifies as vibrant?

 

Toronto is pretty unique in that most of the suburbs and outer part of the city are far more non-White than the downtown core.

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Toronto is pretty unique in that most of the suburbs and outer part of the city are far more non-White than the downtown core.

 

Edit..

 

yes

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Ok, now your talking about something totally different.

 

I have no problems with higher taxes, in fact, I think we need higher taxes. I have a problem with where so much of it is wasted and misappropriated.

Ok. You said I was pro big government, which I took to mean as wanting higher taxes, more socialism, whatever. I'm obviously against this waste as well. Politics are broken as far as I'm concerned, but no idea how to fix it. So much time and money wasted fighting over stupid things.

 

 

 

Ok..The amount of time I save not waiting for a bus or a subway, I can utilize on the treadmill

The vast majority don't.

 

And like the time you spend waiting for a subway is AT MOST 8 minutes. And like the average is probably 3-4. And I don't wait for a bus, I usually walk until one happens to go by. Or I check an app on my phone that shows exactly where my next bus is on a map and I can leave at the appropriate time.

 

Instead of using a treadmill, most people use that same time sitting down stuck in traffic.

 

 

 

 

That's really the big thing for me too. I'm willing to pay taxes to build the necessary infrastructure and provide the services needed it's the waste and spending on things that government, especially local governments shouldn't be involved in that I have the problem with.

 

Yup, agree here as well.

 

 

 

Can I ask, who does these studies for your research at your school that says downtown is more "multicultural" and "vibrant". What is this based on?

 

Can someone tell me how downtown is more multicultural than uptown Toronto?

And exactly what quantifies as vibrant?

 

Good question. That's probably just a poor use of buzzwords on my part. I guess I'd qualify a vibrant community as a walkable neighbourhood with ample street life and access to a wide variety of entertainment and shopping options.

 

Multiculturalism probably isn't worth mentioning here, as you're right, Toronto as a whole is extraordinarily multicultural and you'll get exposed to that in most places. I guess I could argue, though, that it's a very different experience driving past a T and T supermarket at 70 km/hr than it is to walk through Chinatown or Little Portugal or whatever. Obviously you meet people of varied backgrounds and ethnicities all over, but I wonder if you're exposed to it as much in the suburbs, or if it's mostly groups that are more assimilated with our "way of life." That last part is pure hypothesis on my part.

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Good question. That's probably just a poor use of buzzwords on my part. I guess I'd qualify a vibrant community as a walkable neighbourhood with ample street life and access to a wide variety of entertainment and shopping options.

I have two such places within 2min and 10min drive of my home. One of them has a huge pond. Has many events going on there in the summer. Is that vibrant?

 

 

Multiculturalism probably isn't worth mentioning here, as you're right, Toronto as a whole is extraordinarily multicultural and you'll get exposed to that in most places. I guess I could argue, though, that it's a very different experience driving past a T and T supermarket at 70 km/hr than it is to walk through Chinatown or Little Portugal or whatever. Obviously you meet people of varied backgrounds and ethnicities all over, but I wonder if you're exposed to it as much in the suburbs, or if it's mostly groups that are more assimilated with our "way of life." That last part is pure hypothesis on my part.

You make a good point about Chinatown/Little Portugal, but outside of 3months in the summer, not a lot of people walking around LIttle Italy/Portugal these days. On the other hand, many, if not most Portugese, Italian and Chinese live outside the downtown core.

Also, I have a feeling you and many of your fellow classmates and even teachers have never lived the suburb life, and dont really know about the experience outside of what people have told you and people have said.**

**Thats me exercising gross prejudice based on my experience with the people who taught me at York University when I went there :)

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I have two such places within 2min and 10min drive of my home. One of them has a huge pond. Has many events going on there in the summer. Is that vibrant?

 

 

 

You make a good point about Chinatown/Little Portugal, but outside of 3months in the summer, not a lot of people walking around LIttle Italy/Portugal these days. On the other hand, many, if not most Portugese, Italian and Chinese live outside the downtown core.

Also, I have a feeling you and many of your fellow classmates and even teachers have never lived the suburb life, and dont really know about the experience outside of what people have told you and people have said.**

**Thats me exercising gross prejudice based on my experience with the people who taught me at York University when I went there :)

 

Yeah, that would certainly qualify as vibrant. It's obviously not limited to downtowns. One of the big challenges in planning now is retrofitting suburbs to conform to a healthier lifestyle, make them friendlier to non-motorists, and to open them up to mixed use so people don't have to drive downtown or a long way to work or shop, etc.

 

.....

 

I actually think we have a good mix here. While everybody is obviously on the livability train, we have at least one prof who is a champion of suburban life, probably drew up the plans for the places you guys life. We get a good mix of opinions.

 

I try really hard to take into account the variety of preferences people have. I try to not completely remove people's choices. I try to imagine a future where people have MORE choice. Where people can live in suburbs but not be car dependent if they don't want to, etc.

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I have two such places within 2min and 10min drive of my home. One of them has a huge pond. Has many events going on there in the summer. Is that vibrant?

 

Only if there's skinny dipping.

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I dont know but I dont consider Bayview and York Mills downtown..

Danny, did you actually live in Toronto, or is this the greatest joke anyone has ever played on the net?

 

I think if I polled 1,000 people in Toronto, 999 of them would say Bayview+York Mills is not downtown, or even midtown really. lol

I am not arguing the fact that it might be a generational thing...If I was 25 i would probably agree with the things that Zach says..

 

I would of loved to live downtown...go around in subways and street cars...If I worked downtown, why would I need a car...

 

I just have a hard time believing a married couple in their 30s and 40s who have 2.1 kids living in the downtown core.

 

Not Bayview and york Mills, not the Danforth...But DOWNTOWN

 

What's the difference between Danforth and downtown? Everything I discussed is more true of downtown than Danforth or Bayview and York Mills, it's just more convenient at higher prices.

 

Ya, my office right now is about a 3min drive to the "city".

 

Ill be driving to Danny's downtown in about an hour to pick up my son from school. Will take me 20minutes. If I needed public transit, I would have had to have left at about 11am, for the 4 hour commute between bus in York Region for 3min, bus in Toronto for 30min, subway, bus, and about 3 hours of waiting in between. And about 20min of walking.

 

Heh, I should've been more clear. I consider downtown below Bloor, I guess. Bayview and York Mills is hellaciously NOT downtown. But what's true about downtown for these arguments is just as true about Bayview and York Mills in that (unlike the suburbs), anything is a 5-minute walk from at least having access to public transit, whereas suburbs might be a 15-minute drive just to a GO station.

 

Unrelated to the argument, where does your son go to school?

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On point article about rapid transit in the suburbs, comparing the Bay Area, DC, and Toronto:

 

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2013/11/three-approaches-suburban-transit-washington-san-francisco-bay-and-toronto

 

Consider my neighborhood, perhaps an inner suburb (though I have walked downtown from here before, so it's obviously a bit of a stretch). I live outside the standard catchment area for a subway station (500-800m, I'm about 1100m). I usually walk it, but occasionally I'll grab the bus. During morning and afternoon peak, the 32 is scheduled to go by every 2 minutes. Add to that a 61 every few minutes, and a 5 at some interval as well, and I basically have non-stop bus options to get to the subway. The reason I bring this up, is in the article, it mentions frequent bus service being key to promoting mass transit and ensuring subway stations increase their ridership. That has to be one of the biggest reasons people avoid transit. The uncertainty of the wait when they get to a bus stop. Smaller headways (10 minutes or less are generally accepted by users) will promote ridership, and it's not particularly expensive to do. Of course, problem in Toronto is this has worked so well that our small metro service is at capacity.

 

The other thing that can really help increase ridership would be a well executed use of our smart phone technology. I have an app that shows me where the buses are, that I've had since I moved here, but just figured out this week, but it's not official, and I'm guessing not always the most accurate. Why not make it easier for people to know exactly when the next bus is coming? Or where it is? You're at the bus stop, or you're on your way, you pull up a TTC app, find the stop you want on a map, or input the stop number and it will show you the GPS data for all of the buses on the network that are on their way to that stop. So useful. Never wait 20 minutes for a bus again.

 

As an aside, I quite like the polycentric model in DC. You have employment centres, mixed with residential, yet still very connected by rapid transit to the other urban villages, as they call them. That results in a nice level of density (nobody wants hyperdense cities), and people can live close to their work, or commute, etc. It's a nice model, I think.

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