Off Off Topic: Cool Toronto People's Thread

[Zach6668 513]

 

 

It really has not much to do with a yard...I barely use the yard especially in the winter. Its about safety, better quality of life, schools, parks, accessibility to kids activities..Day care, hockey, the list goes on and on and on.

 

Your utopian society has single 25 year old people that have no problems walking, taking subways....People have kids, people are old..They cant walk...Imagine taking an 8 year old goalie to hockey practice riding subways and street cars..

 

I am pretty sure your view will change in 10 years , when you are married and maybe have a couple of kids...Downtown is not kid friendly AT ALL...

 

Your views of quality of life are NOT universal. Get over that. Your demographic is shrinking. Empty nesters are moving back downtown, people with kids are moving back downtown, and millennials are never leaving. In fact, millennials are waiting longer and longer get their drivers license, if at all these days. That's the reality now Serge.

 

People are recognizing that we cannot build cities around the car anymore. It's too expensive and nobody wants to pay for the services you use. It's not even about environmental concerns, it's the fact that sprawling cities are a massive underutilization of land. They require massive amounts of infrastructure. The low population density and immense distances make it significantly more costly on a per person basis. You ever wonder why Toronto has the lowest property taxes (in terms of percentage, I think) in the GTA? It's because it's cheaper to service more people in a smaller area. Roads and highways are EXPENSIVE to build and they're even more expensive to maintain. Nobody planned for that's when we let development go unchecked in the latter half of the 20th century. Nobody worried about maintenance, only capital costs to build the project. Now, roads need money to be maintained but nobody is willing to pay for them. I think we should have a congestion fee going into the core, or put a user toll on the DVP once you get to a certain points near downtown (though this will cause other problems with people clogging local streets instead of paying), but nobody will go for that, and it's political suicide. Instead, we just keep whining about failing infrastructure while providing no support to fix it.

 

The subway fares are going up, and I'm fine with that. The gas tax last changed in 1992 (!!) and it's not even a percentage of fuel costs, it is a fixed dollar amount per litre, meaning the fuel tax has actually decreased substantially in real terms.

[Zach6668 513]

 

 

Im going to invite you to my house, my office and if you like, about 10-20 of my friends who do not live downtown. Then your going to tell me how its "extremely accessible" to travel around the city, the GTA. I agree with you on many of your points, but the argument that the mass transit is easily accessible is not even close to being true IMO.

 

Also, if I choose to drive, and I have to live with all the headaches of driving anyway, can I please have my taxdollars back for funding your transit system?

 

I was talking specifically about the danforth being accessible, as it's on a subway line and I also said we need to mix modes. Drive to a park and ride and take the train the rest of the way. That's accessible for everyone.

[serge 904]

By making public transit more accessible you're encouraging more people to use it. This should help the traffic/parking problem some.

 

Its not more accessible..Its not even remotely accessible. Its ok in pockets, but in a city that has 6 million people , a huge percentage dont have access..

 

Yes most of those 6 million dont live in the city, but they work, they play, they get entertained in the city..Therefore they drive to the city...

 

Its like saying too bad a flight to from Toronto to Florida is going to cost $3500...You cant afford it, you can drive there.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

By making public transit more accessible you're encouraging more people to use it. This should help the traffic/parking problem some.

 

By making roads+parking more plentiful, you're encouraging more people to use it. This should help the traffic/parking problem some.

 

Its all a choice of where public tax dollars go. I understand the roads will never keep up with the car use, but you cant tell people they have no right to complain about traffic since they chose to buy a car, which is what you suggested.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Empty nesters are moving back downtown,

 

Do you actually have proof of this, or is this anecdotal? Cause I find this very hard to believe, unless your version of downtown is the city of Toronto as a whole.

[digitalmonkey 929]

If Arp gets his tax dollars back then there's gonna be a lot of non-drivers wanting their tax dollars that's spent on road repairs.

[mrdannyg 274]

It really has not much to do with a yard...I barely use the yard especially in the winter. Its about safety, better quality of life, schools, parks, accessibility to kids activities..Day care, hockey, the list goes on and on and on.

 

Your utopian society has single 25 year old people that have no problems walking, taking subways....People have kids, people are old..They cant walk...Imagine taking an 8 year old goalie to hockey practice riding subways and street cars..

 

I am pretty sure your view will change in 10 years , when you are married and maybe have a couple of kids...Downtown is not kid friendly AT ALL...

 

I lived "downtown" (Bayview and York Mills). I went to hockey practice without a car...I walked. In fact, I walked (or took one bus) to daycare, all 4 schools I went to, every hockey arena, just about every activity, the library, the movies, the mall, friends' houses.

 

Now I have kids and we moved to the suburbs because we wanted a yard and space, and we have to drive everywhere because so much of it is not accessible due to infrastructure and everyone having a yard means walking farther!

 

Well, we also moved to the suburbs because Halifax's specific geography makes it very silly not to live there for reasons that are irrelevant to Toronto, but that's neither here nor there.

[serge 904]

Your views of quality of life are NOT universal. Get over that. Your demographic is shrinking. Empty nesters are moving back downtown, people with kids are moving back downtown, and millennials are never leaving. In fact, millennials are waiting longer and longer get their drivers license, if at all these days. That's the reality now Serge.

 

People are recognizing that we cannot build cities around the car anymore. It's too expensive and nobody wants to pay for the services you use. It's not even about environmental concerns, it's the fact that sprawling cities are a massive underutilization of land. They require massive amounts of infrastructure. The low population density and immense distances make it significantly more costly on a per person basis. You ever wonder why Toronto has the lowest property taxes (in terms of percentage, I think) in the GTA? It's because it's cheaper to service more people in a smaller area. Roads and highways are EXPENSIVE to build and they're even more expensive to maintain. Nobody planned for that's when we let development go unchecked in the latter half of the 20th century. Nobody worried about maintenance, only capital costs to build the project. Now, roads need money to be maintained but nobody is willing to pay for them. I think we should have a congestion fee going into the core, or put a user toll on the DVP once you get to a certain points near downtown (though this will cause other problems with people clogging local streets instead of paying), but nobody will go for that, and it's political suicide. Instead, we just keep whining about failing infrastructure while providing no support to fix it.

 

The subway fares are going up, and I'm fine with that. The gas tax last changed in 1992 (!!) and it's not even a percentage of fuel costs, it is a fixed dollar amount per litre, meaning the fuel tax has actually decreased substantially in real terms.

 

I think my views are much more universal than yours..My views are real life experience..Your views come out of a textbook...IMO..

 

Fuel costs havent gone up? I used to put gas in my car for .60 a litre..Now its double that.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I was talking specifically about the danforth being accessible, as it's on a subway line and I also said we need to mix modes. Drive to a park and ride and take the train the rest of the way. That's accessible for everyone.

 

So I still own a car?

I still have to drive it to the subway station. I then get on the subway, take it down to where I want to be, maybe get off and on a couple of times,. get out, and walk the rest. Fine, but I STILL OWN A CAR!

 

And I'm doing all this while still paying for car insurance, and owners permits, and license taxes, just so I dont have to pay for parking, and deal with the 20min of traffic from wherever this subway station is to the Danforth restaurant?

 

Are you sure you thought this through?

[serge 904]

I lived "downtown" (Bayview and York Mills). I went to hockey practice without a car...I walked. In fact, I walked (or took one bus) to daycare, all 4 schools I went to, every hockey arena, just about every activity, the library, the movies, the mall, friends' houses.

 

Now I have kids and we moved to the suburbs because we wanted a yard and space, and we have to drive everywhere because so much of it is not accessible due to infrastructure and everyone having a yard means walking farther!

 

Well, we also moved to the suburbs because Halifax's specific geography makes it very silly not to live there for reasons that are irrelevant to Toronto, but that's neither here nor there.

 

I dont know but I dont consider Bayview and York Mills downtown..

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

If Arp gets his tax dollars back then there's gonna be a lot of non-drivers wanting their tax dollars that's spent on road repairs.

 

Awesome. That means we get to take all buses and trolleys off the road too, right, since mass transit doesnt want to pay for roads?

That will make my commute sooooo much faster, as its usually buses that slow me down in the mornings.

 

Ill gladly have my tax dollars pay for parking lots. Land is worth paying for.

[Zach6668 513]

Also, if I choose to drive, and I have to live with all the headaches of driving anyway, can I please have my taxdollars back for funding your transit system?

The TTC has among the highest fare box recovery rates in North America, FYI, and I'm certain the subways alone are running at a massive surplus.

 

 

 

I would disagree with this statement.

Agree with that. The downtown is a lot more than just the financial district.

 

 

 

 

I buy a car. I complain about traffic, and I want more roads.

 

Your viewpoint was that I (Serge) should zip it about traffic if I make the choice to buy a car, I have to live with what that entails and not look for the city/govt to improve it.

 

Well, my viewpoint is that since I have to accept my fate, then those who choose not to buy a car should stop complaining about lack of public transit, and just walk/bike/hitch. Charge the actual cost to take a subway, and stop asking me to subsidize your train ride.

Again, fares pay for more than the cost of riding the subway.

 

Furthermore, it has been proven over and over again that you simply cannot build your way out of road congestion. More roads does not equal less congestion.

 

 

 

 

By making public transit more accessible you're encouraging more people to use it. This should help the traffic/parking problem some.

 

Bingo. That's the fact that most SOV users seem to ignore. Getting more people into mass transit takes people off of the roads! People will choose what is best for them. If they don't have the option, then they simply cannot and are forced to drive, forced to add to congestion.

[digitalmonkey 929]

 

 

By making roads+parking more plentiful, you're encouraging more people to use it. This should help the traffic/parking problem some.

 

Its all a choice of where public tax dollars go. I understand the roads will never keep up with the car use, but you cant tell people they have no right to complain about traffic since they chose to buy a car, which is what you suggested.

 

There's only so much space available. Parking and roads require space.

 

And yes I can tell people who chose to buy a car that they have no right to complain about traffic. Just like I'd tell someone who chooses not to buy a car an complains about all the transfers they need to make to get from their home in the burbs to their job downtown. That's my whole point. There I no perfect solution. There are pros and cons with either choice.

[serge 904]

FWIW I have done 100s of mortgages over the years...Lot of them for people that are empty nesters..NEVER have I seen them buy a condo downtown...Not one...

 

It might be the demo that i deal with, but people tend to stay near where they lived...Lots of condos in the Scarborough area that are more than adequate for a fraction of the cost.

[mrdannyg 274]

By making roads+parking more plentiful, you're encouraging more people to use it. This should help the traffic/parking problem some.

 

 

That isn't a reasonable comparison because public transit is so scaleable, whereas car infrastructure is not. You replace a car lane with a streetcar lane, and you can transport hundreds (thousands?) of extra people per hour. You replace a streetcar lane with a car lane and you add capacity of a fraction of that.

 

I know you're just saying it'll help, not that it'll make everything ok, and that is true, but the difference in efficiency is extra time spent travelling for everyone, extra costs, etc.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I lived "downtown" (Bayview and York Mills).

 

Danny, did you actually live in Toronto, or is this the greatest joke anyone has ever played on the net?

 

I think if I polled 1,000 people in Toronto, 999 of them would say Bayview+York Mills is not downtown, or even midtown really. lol

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

You guys are missing the point of what I was saying. Not that it really matters, but my issue was with Dale's point that those with cars cant complain about traffic.

 

Im not suggesting the city doesnt need mass transit. I just get upset when people who dont have cars and dont spend the money, still expect subsidized mass transit while openly denegrating those with cars.

[serge 904]

This is the problem in the argument..Where are the boundaries..

 

Zach lives in Toronto...Bob lives in Toronto...I live in Pickering BUT i literally live 30 second drive from Toronto border...

[serge 904]

I am not arguing the fact that it might be a generational thing...If I was 25 i would probably agree with the things that Zach says..

 

I would of loved to live downtown...go around in subways and street cars...If I worked downtown, why would I need a car...

 

I just have a hard time believing a married couple in their 30s and 40s who have 2.1 kids living in the downtown core.

 

Not Bayview and york Mills, not the Danforth...But DOWNTOWN

[Babying 613]

I have lived the majority of my life on the danforth. I can honestly say this

 

Transit sucks. Will not take it unless I have to

[Dubey 1,035]

You guys should just move to Alberta where trains are for cargo and the bigger your truck the better, and only poor people and students take the bus. My yuppie ass wouldn't even know how to take the bus at this point, even if I wanted to for some reason.

[Zach6668 513]

By making roads+parking more plentiful, you're encouraging more people to use it. This should help the traffic/parking problem some.

Patently false.

 

Do you actually have proof of this, or is this anecdotal? Cause I find this very hard to believe, unless your version of downtown is the city of Toronto as a whole.

 

Hmmm, read some newspaper articles recently. I can't cite anything right now.

 

I think my views are much more universal than yours..My views are real life experience..Your views come out of a textbook...IMO..

 

Fuel costs havent gone up? I used to put gas in my car for .60 a litre..Now its double that.

 

Are you oh purposely missing my point? I said fuel TAX. If the costs as 60 cents a litre, then you paid about 33% tax. Now at, say, $1.25, you're paying about 14% and that completely ignores the rest of inflation.

 

 

 

So I still own a car?

I still have to drive it to the subway station. I then get on the subway, take it down to where I want to be, maybe get off and on a couple of times,. get out, and walk the rest. Fine, but I STILL OWN A CAR!

 

And I'm doing all this while still paying for car insurance, and owners permits, and license taxes, just so I dont have to pay for parking, and deal with the 20min of traffic from wherever this subway station is to the Danforth restaurant?

 

Are you sure you thought this through?

 

It's very well thought through. I'm not telling people to sell their cars, I'm advocating for the reduction of our dependence on them. To do that, we certainly do need to increase our transit network. Despite having a decent system, one of the most reliable, we need to increase the access people have to it. Transit City would have done this exceptionally well, but Ford killed it off on his first day office despite it being fully funded. We've had plans for a downtown relief line (though that name is awful) on the books for 70 years. It was needed then and it's needed now. Our constant waste of time and money has resulted in Toronto missing the boat on expanding the transit systems reach when it was far more relatively affordable. I think it was Mike Harris who cancelled an Eglinton subway when he came into office. It was already under construction and he paid millions and millions for them to fill the hole back in! It's ridiculous.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

This is the problem in the argument..Where are the boundaries..

 

Zach lives in Toronto...Bob lives in Toronto...I live in Pickering BUT i literally live 30 second drive from Toronto border...

 

Ya, my office right now is about a 3min drive to the "city".

 

Ill be driving to Danny's downtown in about an hour to pick up my son from school. Will take me 20minutes. If I needed public transit, I would have had to have left at about 11am, for the 4 hour commute between bus in York Region for 3min, bus in Toronto for 30min, subway, bus, and about 3 hours of waiting in between. And about 20min of walking.

[digitalmonkey 929]

You guys are missing the point of what I was saying. Not that it really matters, but my issue was with Dale's point that those with cars cant complain about traffic.

 

Im not suggesting the city doesnt need mass transit. I just get upset when people who dont have cars and dont spend the money, still expect subsidized mass transit while openly denegrating those with cars.

 

I haven't mentioned anything about subsidizing anything so I'm not sure why you're lumping my comment in with your other argument.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Patently false.

 

 

 

Hmmm, read some newspaper articles recently. I can't cite anything right now.

 

 

 

Are you oh purposely missing my point? I said fuel TAX. If the costs as 60 cents a litre, then you paid about 33% tax. Now at, say, $1.25, you're paying about 14% and that completely ignores the rest of inflation.

 

 

 

It's very well thought through. I'm not telling people to sell their cars, I'm advocating for the reduction of our dependence on them. To do that, we certainly do need to increase our transit network. Despite having a decent system, one of the most reliable, we need to increase the access people have to it. Transit City would have done this exceptionally well, but Ford killed it off on his first day office despite it being fully funded. We've had plans for a downtown relief line (though that name is awful) on the books for 70 years. It was needed then and it's needed now. Our constant waste of time and money has resulted in Toronto missing the boat on expanding the transit systems reach when it was far more relatively affordable. I think it was Mike Harris who cancelled an Eglinton subway when he came into office. It was already under construction and he paid millions and millions for them to fill the hole back in! It's ridiculous.

 

You are going to make a wonderful NDP voter next year. .

 

Your reliance on big government is going to get a wonderful splash of cold water once you start making money and see where your tax dollars go. I look forward to still being friends with you when you turn 40 and us reliving this conversation.