serge 904 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Rather ignorant statement. Your experience is not necessarily the baseline here. Getting downtown for a game will be easier and more convenient than it will be to get everyone from different suburbs AND from downtown to a game in the outskirts. And I'm sorry that you're a stubborn suburbanite, but your dreams are not the future of this country, and we're not going to plan a future 50 years down the road that suits your unsustainable pattern of development. Why is it ignorant? It's real life. Your views seem to come out of a utopian textbook. My views are real. Experiences are real. I've been going downtown to Leafs games and Jays games for 30 years. As the years go by the experience gets worse. Not better. Lol at unsustainable pattern of development. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 It's ignorant because there are far more than Bay St. executives who live downtown. Lol at unsustainable pattern of development. More ignorance. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 It's ignorant because there are far more than Bay St. executives who live downtown. More ignorance. Even a lot of them don't live downtown. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Why would there not be a walkup crowd in the suburbs? (I would hope an NFL team wouldn't need a walkup, but Im just curious where your coming up with the no walkup in suburbs thought) Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 Well, I guess for baseball it probably wouldn't be much of a problem, when I think about it more. I guess people would be more than willing to drive out there, since they're getting a ticket no matter what, the Jays aren't selling out any stadium at this point. I think there's a significantly larger population within the catchment area downtown now, though. I was thinking about the Senators. Not once did I decide to go to a hockey game without it being planned out a week or more in advance. The location dissuaded me from ever going out there outside of Penguins games, once the novelty of living in an NHL city for the first time wore off. And it wore off pretty quickly. I had a 10-game pack that I purchased in the second season I lived there, and would just skip games I paid for because of how annoying it was to get there. Anyways, off course a bit, but I don't really know what the hell I'm talking about. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Well, I think thats your experience as someone who lived in the city, and didnt want to drive out of the city just for the sake of a game that had no other entertaining events before/after in that general vicinity. With the change in population mass moving from the city to the suburbs, I think its not that crazy to think many of us would gladly see more games or make such attempts to see games, if the location was closer to us, or less of a burden than going downtown is Also, I think I got a parking ticket on Danforth on Saturday night, and I'm pretty f*cking pissed off about it. The machine wouldn't take my money, kept telling me I didn't have to pay, I asked the restaurant staff, they said it was free after 6pm (was there at 6:30)......but of course, got a ticket. So screw anything south of the 401 is my mood for today. Link to post Share on other sites
Babying 613 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I live on the danforth Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 You're right, there are a ton of suburbanites who would go. It does depend heavily on the location, and if there are several points of access. I don't really know where it would go. Anyways, I'm in the process of writing a 3000-word paper for my Advanced Planning Theory class that is due at noon on Wednesday. My paper is supposed to relate to "other planning techniques" so I decided to talk about how grassroot activism halted the grand plans for various expressways in Toronto, specifically Spadina. In doing some research, I just came across this quote from the Toronto Telegram in 1953, referring to the new highway, now called the Gardiner: "How would you like to drive through Toronto during rush-hour at 50 miles an hour?... you would have no stoplights to contend with, no billboards to... fray your temper. In addition, you would have a beautiful view of the lake through most of the ten-mile trip, with miles of six-lane, gently curving landscaped highway...." Imagine going 50 mph on there at rush hour now? Heh. Also there are billboards, lol. And the view of the lake is non-existent. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 WRT to stadium location, I guess the ideal place would be somewhere as central as possible, with populations surrounding it. Just don't put it at the end of the city like Ottawa did with their rink. Anyways, I agree football is more of a suburban game, so I'm fine with that. I just wouldn't want baseball to leave the core. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 Hey, maybe this will all happen in the next 2-3 years, and I'll start working for a development firm, they'll win the contract for the stadium, I'll work on the planning angle. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I live on the danforth I offered you parking at my home, you couldn't make me the same offer? PS- Call your mayor, and get someone to fix the ticket dispensing machine at 800 Danforth Ave. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 I imagine Toronto has a number you call to report stuff like that. Ottawa had the 311 number, they wanted you to call about pot holes, or they would never know about them. Link to post Share on other sites
Babying 613 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I offered you parking at my home, you couldn't make me the same offer? PS- Call your mayor, and get someone to fix the ticket dispensing machine at 800 Danforth Ave. Thanks. the only time I go to that particular area is to hit sushi friends Yes sushi on the danforth Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I offered you parking at my home, you couldn't make me the same offer? PS- Call your mayor, and get someone to fix the ticket dispensing machine at 800 Danforth Ave. Thanks. Another great example. I love going to the danforth. But the parking situation annoying. Link to post Share on other sites
Babying 613 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Another great example. I love going to the danforth. But the parking situation annoying. yes it is annoying it is a fact when living in any city Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Would governments continue to use tax dollars to Subsidize sports teams if they didn't think it was profitable and beneficial to their cities in the long run? Bob covered this, but there is basically no doubt that any benefit cities receive from stadiums is severely outweighed by the 9-figure costs and subsidies provided. Even with no direct costs, stadiums almost always get huge tax breaks while not paying anything out for the extra services required. In theory citizens have a fixed budget for entertainment -- thus if they weren't spending their money for tickets and merchandise they would spend it elsewhere in the local economy. I suppose some teams are a tourist attraction in their own right and therefore bring money into the city but how common is that? I think this is a fair concern for a city that already has professional hockey, baseball, basketball and soccer. I don't think it'll change that the Leafs sell out every game, but there are still plenty of families that splurge for a few Leafs tickets during the year (or split season tickets) that will now be choosing between that and the NFL. It would be a tourist attraction, but a huge majority of the dollars for tickets, merchandise and TV comes from the local market, and that money comes from people with fixed budgets. I think this is true too to an extent. So weigh out the tourism dollars, I guess, against the negative externalities of road congestion, further promotion of single user vehicle dependence, etc. Are there other events that take place in football stadiums? I know there are a few huge acts that can sell them out, but I can't imagine a lot of non-football entities are clamoring to book 60,000 seat stadiums. The only thing, is that if it were an open air stadium, Toronto could finally host a Winter Classic. That's one event every 2-3 years tops. Hell, maybe they even make it once a year, lol. Another good point with the 'fixed dollars' - Toronto already has some world-class venues. A new football statement would crowd out concerts that currently take place at the Skydome and ACC and not provide much net benefit to the city. We can disagree. It's all good. But I'm a real life suburban ticket buyer. There are millions like me who take their kids to sporting events. We don't work or live downtown. Would prefer to avoid the headache of going downtown. I think the effect of this is overstated too. Driving to the new NFL stadium is not going to be like driving to Scarborough or Downsview or wherever it would be now. It'll be a giant hassle with terrible, expensive parking and all the rest, because it will have 60000 people headed there and development all around it. So basically, it'll be just like going downtown, except harder to do, since right now everyone in the suburbs can leave their car at any number of transit stations and take the subway down. The Skydome is incredibly accessible for a stadium in a big city. Also, I went to hundreds of Jays games as a teenager. I would have gone to no more than a couple if the stadium wasn't accesible by public transit. I think there is definitely a large number of suburbanites who feel the same way you do, I just don't think the overall effect is as strong as you think. Then again, it boggles me a little bit why suburbanites would prefer to drive their SUV 20 minutes directly to a stadium, wait in traffic/parkng for another half hour, pay $30 for parking, then walk 20 minutes to their seats while they would hate to go downtown...even though the trip would be about the same length, safer and much cheaper! Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Bob covered this, but there is basically no doubt that any benefit cities receive from stadiums is severely outweighed by the 9-figure costs and subsidies provided. Even with no direct costs, stadiums almost always get huge tax breaks while not paying anything out for the extra services required. I think this is a fair concern for a city that already has professional hockey, baseball, basketball and soccer. I don't think it'll change that the Leafs sell out every game, but there are still plenty of families that splurge for a few Leafs tickets during the year (or split season tickets) that will now be choosing between that and the NFL. It would be a tourist attraction, but a huge majority of the dollars for tickets, merchandise and TV comes from the local market, and that money comes from people with fixed budgets. Another good point with the 'fixed dollars' - Toronto already has some world-class venues. A new football statement would crowd out concerts that currently take place at the Skydome and ACC and not provide much net benefit to the city. I think the effect of this is overstated too. Driving to the new NFL stadium is not going to be like driving to Scarborough or Downsview or wherever it would be now. It'll be a giant hassle with terrible, expensive parking and all the rest, because it will have 60000 people headed there and development all around it. So basically, it'll be just like going downtown, except harder to do, since right now everyone in the suburbs can leave their car at any number of transit stations and take the subway down. The Skydome is incredibly accessible for a stadium in a big city. Also, I went to hundreds of Jays games as a teenager. I would have gone to no more than a couple if the stadium wasn't accesible by public transit. I think there is definitely a large number of suburbanites who feel the same way you do, I just don't think the overall effect is as strong as you think. Then again, it boggles me a little bit why suburbanites would prefer to drive their SUV 20 minutes directly to a stadium, wait in traffic/parkng for another half hour, pay $30 for parking, then walk 20 minutes to their seats while they would hate to go downtown...even though the trip would be about the same length, safer and much cheaper! How is that any different than now? Lets take a real life scenario for me taking my son to a Leafs game: I like to get there early say for 6pm..I would have to leave my house at 5pm to 515 to make sure I get to downtown in time...Then I have to drive around for parking, and if I m lucky i will find a close by spot for $20...There are a few cheaper options, but they are getting fewer and fewer..Then we have to walk from the car, most likely in the cold to get to the rink..How is that safer,and cheaper? I actually have the luxury of living close to the Go Station..Which I take on occasion..Even If I coordinate the times of the train, its still a good 30-45 trek ..The GO is actually pretty comfortable..Cheaper than parking(not by much), and my son likes it...But depending on the end of the game, the wait can be fairly long... A lot of people that live in the suburbs dont have the luxury of the GO, subways or other ways to get downtown....The whole notion that I am getting from Mr Urban Planner is that TOO BAD YOU LIVE THERE, YOUR FAULT MOVE DOWNTOWN.. Doesnt work that way IMO. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Something can be in the "suburbs" and still far worse for you to get to. What if the new NFL stadium is built in Oakville ? Downtown means that things are the most convenient for the most number of people. You live in a low density suburb on the edge of the city. The price for your large backyard and the lifestyle that you choose is that if you want to go to other places in this very large city it will often not be convenient for you. If something is convenient for you that means it most likely will not be convenient for millions of other people. Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 How is that any different than now? Lets take a real life scenario for me taking my son to a Leafs game: I like to get there early say for 6pm..I would have to leave my house at 5pm to 515 to make sure I get to downtown in time...Then I have to drive around for parking, and if I m lucky i will find a close by spot for $20...There are a few cheaper options, but they are getting fewer and fewer..Then we have to walk from the car, most likely in the cold to get to the rink..How is that safer,and cheaper? I actually have the luxury of living close to the Go Station..Which I take on occasion..Even If I coordinate the times of the train, its still a good 30-45 trek ..The GO is actually pretty comfortable..Cheaper than parking(not by much), and my son likes it...But depending on the end of the game, the wait can be fairly long... A lot of people that live in the suburbs dont have the luxury of the GO, subways or other ways to get downtown....The whole notion that I am getting from Mr Urban Planner is that TOO BAD YOU LIVE THERE, YOUR FAULT MOVE DOWNTOWN.. Doesnt work that way IMO. To be clear, I'm only talking about the second method. I think driving to a suburb arena will either be equal or much better (depending on where you live) as compared to driving downtown. Parking and safety are the same or worse downtown. I also want to discount people who live in the suburbs but don't have access to either a subway or GO train. If you live that far out and don't have a car, you aren't going to any of these things on any kind of regular basis. You basically said it - getting there by GO is about the same time, but it is cheaper, safer and more comfortable. Not by a ton I realize, but if it is better for even those who live outside, imagine what it's like for people who live driving distance to a subway station (even if it is just Finch or McCowan) - even cheaper and faster for them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Something can be in the "suburbs" and still far worse for you to get to. What if the new NFL stadium is built in Oakville ? Downtown means that things are the most convenient for the most number of people. You live in a low density suburb on the edge of the city. The price for your large backyard and the lifestyle that you choose is that if you want to go to other places in this very large city it will often not be convenient for you. If something is convenient for you that means it most likely will not be convenient for millions of other people. I get the argument..But I dont think the numbers justify the argument per se.. The last census numbers I found show that there are about 2.7 million people that live in "Toronto", and a total of 5.6 million people live in the GTA. Of that 2.7 million people I would be interested to see how many live "downtown"..Again defining downtown isnt black and white...I have also seen numbers that the downtown population has outgrown the suburbs in the last 5-7 years, and 47 percent of downtown people are between the age of 20-39.... My concept of downtown, is south of Yonge and Bloor...East to Danforth area and maybe west to the Bathurst ish....This is by no means an actual geographically defined territory, but just my personal experience Again if almost 6 million people live in the GTA and by my estimates less than a million live by my definition of downtown, who is actually being inconvenienced? Again i am just stating my point of view, but maybe we should be concentrating more on better highways and access in the whole of the GTA, then worrying about bike lanes downtown? No disrespect to Zach and the Urban Development team of the 2020s...Just my opinion obviously. Link to post Share on other sites
Fenxis 99 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Central location = cars can leave in every direction & easier to hook up to mass transit which further spreads out parking requirements. Ottawa and Phoenix are good example of putting an arena / stadium on edge of town isn't the best idea. Link to post Share on other sites
Fenxis 99 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Again i am just stating my point of view, but maybe we should be concentrating more on better highways and access in the whole of the GTA, then worrying about bike lanes downtown? Increasing highway capacity or getting people out of cars into mass transit has the same effect -- less congestion! Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Increasing highway capacity or getting people out of cars into mass transit has the same effect -- less congestion! in theory Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Lol Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 Another great example. I love going to the danforth. But the parking situation annoying. The entire Danforth is literally a subway line. Link to post Share on other sites
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