Political (Or Non-Political) Chat In The Hockey Forum

[iBeaver 409]

Hard to say. We're both making assumptions since we will only ever get on side of the story but what I listened to and read I have the opinion that Zimnerman is a POS. I could be wrong and that's fine. I don't know why he decided that this kid walking down the street at 7pm in broad daylight talking in the phone needed his attention. Make a phone call and move on.

 

But I agree with your last point. I will never understand the need to carry. Like I mentioned earlier I can't go to my town fair anymore because 200+ guys show up strapped to "make a point". I don't see the point. It makes a child's fair unsafe. Nothing you can say will change my opinion on that. A it takes is one but ah on the pro gun or Antiguan side to get really stupid and there are 200+ guns are present to be used to "keep us safe".

 

Friend took a gun class to carry. The cop teaching said in almost every instance you need to run. Only use gun when absolutely no other option is present. I think done forget that. I know people who carry and have admitted they hope to use it one day. Sad they have such easy access.

[Zach6668 513]

Zimmerman's face makes him look like a complete POS. I don't know anything else about him as a person, other than that he shot and killed an unarmed teenager in cold blood, that is.

[Dubey 1,035]

Zimmerman's face makes him look like a complete POS. I don't know anything else about him as a person, other than that he shot and killed an unarmed teenager in cold blood, that is.

 

 

That's not really what happened. I haven't read everything on the case, but what I have read suggested that Zimmerman was generally well liked, and had never indicated a racial bias, no history of violence. I'm really torn on the case. I think it's a god damn tragedy. It's not a murder. A murder requires malicious intent and forethought. I don't think Zimmerman ever intended to kill Martin until he was in a position where he felt like his safety was threatened. However, I think it was needless and avoidable that he got himself into that situation. I think by the letter of the law, he can't be proven guilty of anything, but I think Manslaughter would have been the most "fair" result. He acted carelessly, and got himself into a situation that resulted in a death. I don't know if he is a 'POS'. I don't know if he is racist. I don't know if his actions were racially motivated. Nobody knows that. I think he thought he was being a hero and then things escalated out of his control. He panicked and made a bad decision.

[serge 904]

Totally agree with Steve....

 

I think its a great thing to have a neighbourhood watch...All Zimmerman had to do was call the police and say there is a kid that looks suspicious, get over here now...

 

We may think that he was racially motivated there, but thats another issue...No need to get out of car, no need to "provoke" the situation...It all comes down to the right to carry a handgun...

 

Without the gun , Zimmerman probably doesnt leave his car and confront Martin...I think this case is being made out to be a race issue...It should be a case for gun control IMO.

[serge 904]

In 2005, at the age of 21, Zimmerman was charged with assaulting a police officer and resisting arrest, after shoving an officer while a friend of Zimmerman's was being questioned about underage drinking. The charges were reduced, then dropped when Zimmerman entered a pre-trial diversion program. Also in 2005, Zimmerman's ex-fiancée filed a restraining order against him, alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman requested a reciprocal restraining order. Both orders were granted.^[2][43] The incidents were raised by prosecutors at Zimmerman's initial bond hearing.

[Dubey 1,035]

Totally agree with Steve....

 

I think its a great thing to have a neighbourhood watch...All Zimmerman had to do was call the police and say there is a kid that looks suspicious, get over here now...

 

We may think that he was racially motivated there, but thats another issue...No need to get out of car, no need to "provoke" the situation...It all comes down to the right to carry a handgun...

 

Without the gun , Zimmerman probably doesnt leave his car and confront Martin...I think this case is being made out to be a race issue...It should be a case for gun control IMO.

 

Agree with everything, particularly the bolded. Though there is no evidence that he was actually the one that confronted Martin. That is pure speculation.

[FCP Bob 1,320]

Calgary jewellery store employee knocks would-be robber out cold with baseball bat

 

 

CALGARY — A baseball bat, a stool and a couple of burly firemen were waiting for some would-be thieves who tried to rob a jewellery store in northwest Calgary.

 

Surveillance video from the store has surfaced on the Internet, showing a pair of young men in hoodies walk into the store with crowbars and start to threaten staff and customers.

 

However, someone behind the counter clocks one of the thieves with a baseball bat and while his buddy tries to drag him out of the store, a customer wielding a stool at the door prevents him from leaving.

 

[Zach6668 513]

That's not really what happened. I haven't read everything on the case, but what I have read suggested that Zimmerman was generally well liked, and had never indicated a racial bias, no history of violence. I'm really torn on the case. I think it's a god damn tragedy. It's not a murder. A murder requires malicious intent and forethought. I don't think Zimmerman ever intended to kill Martin until he was in a position where he felt like his safety was threatened. However, I think it was needless and avoidable that he got himself into that situation. I think by the letter of the law, he can't be proven guilty of anything, but I think Manslaughter would have been the most "fair" result. He acted carelessly, and got himself into a situation that resulted in a death. I don't know if he is a 'POS'. I don't know if he is racist. I don't know if his actions were racially motivated. Nobody knows that. I think he thought he was being a hero and then things escalated out of his control. He panicked and made a bad decision.

 

That's fair. I haven't read much of anything on the case, so I'll happily defer to you.

[digitalmonkey 929]

In 2005, at the age of 21, Zimmerman was charged with assaulting a police officer and resisting arrest, after shoving an officer while a friend of Zimmerman's was being questioned about underage drinking. The charges were reduced, then dropped when Zimmerman entered a pre-trial diversion program. Also in 2005, Zimmerman's ex-fiancée filed a restraining order against him, alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman requested a reciprocal restraining order. Both orders were granted.^[2][43] The incidents were raised by prosecutors at Zimmerman's initial bond hearing.

 

He eats pizza with a fork and knife too.

[serge 904]

Without generalizing the differences in our countries, its pretty safe to say that happens in Florida we have at least a couple of people shot and maybe dead..

 

No guns..No deaths...

 

Nice swing by the guy.

[serge 904]

He eats pizza with a fork and knife too.

 

Was making a point there is some history there..Most people havent been arrested for assaulting a police officer.

[serge 904]

oh those two should be on World dumbest Criminals.

[Zach6668 513]

I realize no one cares about my earlier rant, but here's the news story about the two residents I spoke about:

 

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/07/16/planning-committee-gets-earful-on-traffic-approves-arts-court-plan

 

They talk about the parking issue, which is hard to believe. They stated there were 11 visitor spots between the two Claridge buildings (approx 500 units). Seems unreasonable. Our 3-building complex has probably 40? 11 would be against zoning (though probably shouldn't be, to discourage driving), so not sure if the residents were correct or exaggerating or what.

 

The other problem, is there's infinite parking in the Market, just a few blocks away. All of this car culture makes people think they can just drive door to door and walk 5 feet to their destination. There are 3 large public parking garages each within 3 blocks of these buildings, plus street parking everywhere, and a ton of surface lots. I guess they just want "free" visitor parking ("free", in the sense that individual motorists don't pay, while it's almost certainly worked into the condo fees and purchase prices of the units).

[ajs510 122]

I wanted tons of included parking, so I bought a house. Simple.

[mrdannyg 274]

Agree with everything, particularly the bolded. Though there is no evidence that he was actually the one that confronted Martin. That is pure speculation.

 

Depends how you define "confront." If I'm a black kid walking through a nice neighbourhood, and I notice a guy peaking around corners at me, following me, calling the police, then getting out of his car when I approach and moving towards me (all while carrying a gun), that seems pretty confrontational. He doesn't need to walk up to him on the street and start shoving him to be initiating a confrontation.

[serge 904]

I realize no one cares about my earlier rant, but here's the news story about the two residents I spoke about:

 

http://www.ottawasun...arts-court-plan

 

They talk about the parking issue, which is hard to believe. They stated there were 11 visitor spots between the two Claridge buildings (approx 500 units). Seems unreasonable. Our 3-building complex has probably 40? 11 would be against zoning (though probably shouldn't be, to discourage driving), so not sure if the residents were correct or exaggerating or what.

 

The other problem, is there's infinite parking in the Market, just a few blocks away. All of this car culture makes people think they can just drive door to door and walk 5 feet to their destination. There are 3 large public parking garages each within 3 blocks of these buildings, plus street parking everywhere, and a ton of surface lots. I guess they just want "free" visitor parking ("free", in the sense that individual motorists don't pay, while it's almost certainly worked into the condo fees and purchase prices of the units).

 

You will not like the parking situation in downtown Toronto

[Zach6668 513]

I wanted tons of included parking, so I bought a house. Simple.

 

Right... the biggest problem with the movement to stop urban sprawl is that the population doesn't seem to want it. At least the vocal portion of it. I never read about urbanists speaking at these things, it's always the NIMBYs and people trying to shut it down, or trying to impose a suburban lifestyle in the urban core.

[Zach6668 513]

You will not like the parking situation in downtown Toronto

 

I won't care about it, I've sold my car.

[Dubey 1,035]

Depends how you define "confront." If I'm a black kid walking through a nice neighbourhood, and I notice a guy peaking around corners at me, following me, calling the police, then getting out of his car when I approach and moving towards me (all while carrying a gun), that seems pretty confrontational. He doesn't need to walk up to him on the street and start shoving him to be initiating a confrontation.

 

Well, if he was chasing him, and actually holding the gun in his hand or pointing it at him, then I agree with you. I haven't heard/read anything like that. But again, it's all speculation. There's no proof that he even continued the pursuit after being told by the 911 dispatcher to stop. We can speculate that he did, or that he might have, but I don't think we can reasonably assume that he did, and we certainly can't charge a guy with murder based on that assumption.

[Zach6668 513]

So do we know what it was that caused him to fire his gun?

[Dubey 1,035]

A really brief outline Zach:

 

-Zimmerman is the head of the "neighbourhood watch" program in a gated community in Florida. There had been many break-ins, assults, and even 1 murder in the past year in this neighbourhood.

 

-Martin was staying with a relative in the complex, went out to 7-eleven to get some snacks, was walking back when Zimmerman saw him walking between some houses, and assumed he was up to no good. He called the non-emergency police line and reported a suspicious character. While he was on the phone, he got out of his vehicle to follow Martin. When the dispatcher realized he was out of his car, he/she asked him if he was pursuing the "suspect". He said yes, and they told him to stop pursuing. He said "OK". The call ended. At some point between the time the call ended, and the time the cops showed up, Zimmerman and Martin got into a confrontation that involved the two struggling over control of the gun while on the ground, with Zimmerman ultimately getting control of the gun and firing it into Martin's chest at zero range.

 

-The details of the confrontation are up to debate, but the general consensus (I think) is that Martin was on top of Zimmerman at one point and pummeling him with his fists. Zimmerman had a broken nose, a cut on the back of his head, and grass stains on his back, which seem to corroborate this version of the story. Zimmerman's version of the story has Martin reaching for the gun, and saying "You're going to die tonight". Zimmerman's version of the story is that once he got off the phone, he was confronted and attacked by Martin on his way back to his vehicle. The prosecution argues that Zimmerman stalked Martin and initiated the confrontation, and thus is ineligible for the self defense claim.

 

a few other important details:

 

1. a few people witnessed the altercation from afar and made 911 calls. In the background of one of these calls, you can hear a voice screaming for help. There is much debate on whose voice was screaming for help, with Zimmerman's side saying it was him, and the prosecutor's saying it was Martin. (Edit: the cries for help were heard before the gunshot)

 

2. Martin was on the phone with a friend right before his death, and told the friend that he was aware he was being followed by someone.

[digitalmonkey 929]

So do we know what it was that caused him to fire his gun?

 

He claims it was in self defense.

[serge 904]

The friend that Martin was speaking to on the phone may have blown the case...Pretty caricature like 19 year old girl...Claimed in court didnt understand english, and used the term cracker.

[iBeaver 409]

I don't care if Martin was robbing houses. Zimmerman had no reason to be a hero. He called, it's time to move on. He had a gun and he felt that gave him the ability/right to be John Wayne. He got in a fight, realized he was losing and killed a man. 2nd degree murder is not that big of a stretch. You carry a gun and if it is believed you have a case saying he confronted Martin then it fits. Not all murder is premeditated. There are degrees.

 

 

This case sets a weird precedent where I can take a gun. Go confront someone without witnesses and somehow get in a fist fight, take a few hits then kill the guy. My word against a dead guy. Self defense. Time to go home and sign a book deal.

 

I do think race is an issue. Not for Zimmerman but for the jury. Then you have a black woman in Florida firing a warning shots at her abusive husband who was I guess beating on her and she got 20 yrs. race played a part in the court room I have no doubt.

 

Sorry I feel strongly about this. Good discussion though.

[Dubey 1,035]

He had a gun and he felt that gave him the ability/right to be John Wayne. He got in a fight, realized he was losing and killed a man. 2nd degree murder is not that big of a stretch. You carry a gun and if it is believed you have a case saying he confronted Martin then it fits. Not all murder is premeditated. There are degrees.

 

Problem with this is, you are making a lot of assumptions about his motives, his character, and the events that happened. You may be 100% right. We don't really know. Here's another version of the story with the same facts, but slanted in the other direction:

 

 

Zimmerman saw somebody who he did not recognize walking between the houses of the community in which he has been appointed head of Neighbourhood watch, a position he takes very seriously. Worried for the safety of the residents, he contacts police, and then follows the suspect at a safe distance. When he can no longer pursue in his vehicle, he gets out to see if he can see where the suspect is going. After speaking with 911, he decides that he should return ot his car. Meanwhile, the suspect has turned back, and now attacks Zimmerman from the side. He knocks him to the groun and starts punching him in the face. Fearing for his safety, he reaches for his gun. A struggle ensues in which both men attempt to gain control of the gun. Zimmerman gains control of the gun, and fearing for his life, pulls the trigger.

 

 

 

The reality is probably somewhere between your version, and that version, but truthfully, nobody knows. Unless we are going to change the entire basis of the justice system, we have to assume innocent until proven guilty.