HangukMiguk 8 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Well, I'm assuming with this list, that respected would constitute the following: -A great, strong player, capable of playing multiple games in multiple formats well -A good ambassador to the game who has helped to shine a positive light on the game TJ hasn't really done much of either. Like we've both said, he's a cash game fish. Obviously there are still a bunch of people who respect the hell out of his tournament play if he's able to get staked (or just hate money), but to say that warrants him a seat atop a top 10 most respected list? Not buying it. Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJon 175 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 His brother from Full House is way cooler anyways. Link to post Share on other sites
Vegas Knights 54 Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 Well, I'm assuming with this list, that respected would constitute the following: -A great, strong player, capable of playing multiple games in multiple formats well -A good ambassador to the game who has helped to shine a positive light on the game TJ hasn't really done much of either.... Here is what Wiki says about him: "He is the only person in the history of the World Series of Poker (WSOP) to have won events in three types of Omaha played at the World Series — Pot Limit High, Limit High, and Limit 8-or-Better High-low split." That seems like a guy who can play multiple games especially when you add to this his two 2nd place finishes at the main event and one third place. Also he was surprisingly gracious after losing a pivotal hand against Ferguson when TJ's Ace Queen lost to Ferguson's Ace 9 when all the money was in. Link to post Share on other sites
babylondonks 5 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 slackerinc rrumsey justlikenegs kobe2odom8 tbrick412 tehote rcgs59 lurbz ko8e34 thephoenix88 honourable mention: fargopokernd solid list Link to post Share on other sites
HangukMiguk 8 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Here is what Wiki says about him: "He is the only person in the history of the World Series of Poker (WSOP) to have won events in three types of Omaha played at the World Series — Pot Limit High, Limit High, and Limit 8-or-Better High-low split." That seems like a guy who can play multiple games especially when you add to this his two 2nd place finishes at the main event and one third place. Also he was surprisingly gracious after losing a pivotal hand against Ferguson when TJ's Ace Queen lost to Ferguson's Ace 9 when all the money was in. And he also won a Razz bracelet too. I've never said he can't play multiple games. What I have said is good at one format of poker and one format only: Tournament play. He gets destroyed in cash games. That's where I'm coming from. Beyond that, agree to disagree. You say respected, I say no, but it's all conjecture, and I have no interest in starting a flame war based on conjecture. Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Doubt I've seen a Limit Omaha tournament in over a decade. (I do recall seeing it briefly in cash form online years ago.) Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 1) Respect is a strange thing to quantify to begin with, particularly with regard to poker players. For the truly successful pros, who are +EV lifetime from gambling over the course of decades, have had to do it by wading through an ethical quagmire.That kind of wading is going to leave stains, that I find it difficult to respect. I have a grudging respect Doyle Brunson the way I would respect a skilled con man or art thief, but I'd hard pressed to call his life work respectable. For someone like TJ, who has been a life long mark for people like Doyle, I have next to zero respect for. 2)There was a time, pre-poker boom that TJ was +EV tournament player. He had a very strong edge when people were playing tournament poker very poorly. That edge is gone, and didn't just disappear because of his health issues. His last bracelet is in 2005, that may as well be 2 centuries ago in terms of tournament theory and quality of play. The vast majority of TJ's wins are in small tournament fields against weak tournament competition. 3)If forced to define respect, I think in order for a poker player to be "respected" they have to be a +EV poker player overall. TJ was not. He had a tournament edge at one point, but as far as I can tell he never had a cash game edge, at least not against other pros. In his tournament wins, TJ had a fraction of his action, and I can tell you cash Pros were licking their chops to get at the fraction he did have and were cursing when he went to the pits. If TJ ever had a winning cash game year (That he wasn't actively participating in a collusion ring) in the past 30, I'd be shocked. 4)I don't' care how many tournaments he won pre poker boom, how much he's cashed ( and god knows how many tournaments he's entered, who knows if he's even +EV in lifetime tournament winnings), the man is a pure degenerate. I have much more respect for anonymous grinding pros who support their family, than a broke degenerate who "borrows" money from anyone who will lend it to him, to go shoot off the money on craps. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Dirtydutch 8 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Pretty much everyone listed in this thread is either a degenerate cheater, a degenerate addict with a stake or a degenerate addict who is almost good enough at poker to feed his addiction, and just has to pull $50K or so per week out of people's FTP account to stay in action. The most respectable person in poker is Paul Philips. He actually contributed something other than suffering to the world before poker, didn't need to cheat anyone to fund the habit, was actually honest with people in general, and got out before the lifestyle of scumbags dragged him and his newborn daughters down into the depths of degeneracy. I think he is the only name mentioned so far who I'd allow into my home. Granted, part of that is just that we're both into group sex. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I'd let Antonio into my house, as long as he had 10 women with him. Link to post Share on other sites
DiamondDixie 12 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 wasnt amarillo slim a pedophile? I think you're thinking of someone else but I can't remember who it is, pretty sure it's another old timer though. Link to post Share on other sites
HangukMiguk 8 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 I think you're thinking of someone else but I can't remember who it is, pretty sure it's another old timer though. Nope. Amarillo Slim was a pedophile. I almost said what Dutch said about Paul Phillips. He was smart enough to get out while the getting was good. Link to post Share on other sites
Dirtydutch 8 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 I'd let Antonio into my house, as long as he had 10 women with him. Are you by any chance the bouncer at every night club in Las Vegas? Link to post Share on other sites
FARGOpokerND 22 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 I think you're thinking of someone else but I can't remember who it is, pretty sure it's another old timer though. http://www.pokerlistings.com/a-legend-lost-amarillo-slim-breaks-his-silence-pt-1-38457 Link to post Share on other sites
Dirtydutch 8 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Nope. Amarillo Slim was a pedophile. And a god damn good one at that. Link to post Share on other sites
NickCave 194 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 This conversation is hilarious. Any list that doesn't have Dwan, or at least Antonius, is retarded. The very notion of Antonius doing ANYTHING against Cloutier is just... can you imagine? Can you imagine them playing poker? Of any kind? Imagine this scenario: Cloutier and Antonius sit across from each other, and each places 100K on the table. Between them is a scrabble bag full of all sorts of poker variations ("6-handed PLO tournament," "short stack heads up NLHE tournament," "3-handed deep stack PLO/NLHE," etc.). 100 big-name professionals gather in a room, and they have to bet their lives on the winner before the game/structure is drawn. How many do you think are taking Cloutier? How many people can you replace Antonius with and still get "zero" as an answer to the previous question? No. Just no no no no no. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
HangukMiguk 8 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 This conversation is hilarious. Any list that doesn't have Dwan, or at least Antonius, is retarded. The very notion of Antonius doing ANYTHING against Cloutier is just... can you imagine? Can you imagine them playing poker? Of any kind? Imagine this scenario: Cloutier and Antonius sit across from each other, and each places 100K on the table. Between them is a scrabble bag full of all sorts of poker variations ("6-handed PLO tournament," "short stack heads up NLHE tournament," "3-handed deep stack PLO/NLHE," etc.). 100 big-name professionals gather in a room, and they have to bet their lives on the winner before the game/structure is drawn. How many do you think are taking Cloutier? How many people can you replace Antonius with and still get "zero" as an answer to the previous question? No. Just no no no no no. But I have never seen Patrick Antonius in a cookie. Your argument is invalid. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 This conversation is hilarious. Any list that doesn't have Dwan, or at least Antonius, is retarded. The very notion of Antonius doing ANYTHING against Cloutier is just... can you imagine? Can you imagine them playing poker? Of any kind? Imagine this scenario: Cloutier and Antonius sit across from each other, and each places 100K on the table. Between them is a scrabble bag full of all sorts of poker variations ("6-handed PLO tournament," "short stack heads up NLHE tournament," "3-handed deep stack PLO/NLHE," etc.). 100 big-name professionals gather in a room, and they have to bet their lives on the winner before the game/structure is drawn. How many do you think are taking Cloutier? How many people can you replace Antonius with and still get "zero" as an answer to the previous question? No. Just no no no no no. To be clear, is smoking allowed at the table for this match, or not? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
rivergirl 2 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 slackerinc rrumsey justlikenegs kobe2odom8 tbrick412 tehote rcgs59 lurbz ko8e34 thephoenix88 honourable mention: fargopokernd UMMM, how did I not make this list? lol hey everyone!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Vegas Knights 54 Posted June 1, 2013 Author Share Posted June 1, 2013 ...Tom McEvoy...A lot of the younger players know little if anything about Tom McEvoy. but he was pretty much the face of poker throughout most of the 80's decade. Of course Chan was the best player during that decade but I would say McEvoy (who won the main event in 1983) seemed to be everywhere with regards to poker. He used to go into poker rooms around Vegas with his briefcase and cowboy hat (he was from Michigan) which I kind of got a kick out of. I believe he wrote the first book on tournament poker and he was instrumental in the banning of smoking during tournaments. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 I remember railing the weekly HU match on stars between Tom McEvoy and the TLB winner back in 05/06. I almost bought his book with FPPs at one point. Probably wise not to. Link to post Share on other sites
Vegas Knights 54 Posted June 1, 2013 Author Share Posted June 1, 2013 I remember railing the weekly HU match on stars between Tom McEvoy and the TLB winner back in 05/06. I almost bought his book with FPPs at one point. Probably wise not to. Well he did beat 19 former WSOP main event champions in the 2009 WSOP's Champions Invitational. Link to post Share on other sites
Vegas Knights 54 Posted June 21, 2013 Author Share Posted June 21, 2013 Okay, fine, but TJ was considered a cash fish even when he was winning bracelets. He had no respect from his peers, even then. He had an edge at tournaments, during an era when tournament play was horrible, but that edge has been obliterated. He is -EV in all forms of poker at this point, I wouldn't stake him for a 1-2NL game. TJ is a broke degenerate who requites stakes to get in action, who has ALWAYS required stakes to be in action. This is not the type of player that should be on any top ten list of poker respect. I respect players who can support themselves by the game Looks like he's already cashed twice at this years WSOP. Not bad for a 73 year old. He also addresses the craps issue in the below link. http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/15760-t-j-cloutier-to-hell-with-them-who-make-fun-of-my-craps-play Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 lol one was a 1900 cash in the 1000 entry seniors only event, and the other was a 24,000 cash in the 1,500 event. The 1500 is a nice finish, just outside the final table. However, i wonder if that even represents a profit for TJ? Is 23,400 more or less than his entries so far? In the interview, he called craps a "beatable" game, which is hilarious, and tells you all you need to know. You want to stake a guy who thinks craps is beatable, have a blast Link to post Share on other sites
Whiskers 680 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 The way you beat craps is to walk away when you're ahead. Easy game. Link to post Share on other sites
Vegas Knights 54 Posted June 21, 2013 Author Share Posted June 21, 2013 The way you beat craps is to walk away when you're ahead. Easy game. Yeah, Archie Karas should of walked away after turning 50 dollars into 40 million.because craps can't be beat. Link to post Share on other sites
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