Off Topic, Kinda.....

[serge 904]

I have a question regarding the Armenian genocide...

 

Why does it matter who calls it genocide? It's beyond horrific and those people should be remembered and honoured, but why does a label or an acknowledgement from someone who wasn't alive matter? I'm just trying to understand.

 

Thats the big issue we have.

 

Turkey denies that it was Genocide and it was part of a war, and our numbers are exaggerated. We know for it to be fact that it was ethnic cleansing and a Genocide.

 

There is a big difference. Armenians and other Christians were led away from their homes and executed, solely for the reason that they were Armenian and Christian.

 

We just want them to admit what they did is wrong and it was a Genocide.

 

Genocide is a very powerful world that shouldnt be thrown around, that why we are so passionate about it..Having lost family in the Genocide, it hits home for me very hard that they were killed in this manner.

 

The Germans and the Jews can now get along, because the Germans admit the Holocaust...If the Germans said, well some Jewish people died but it was a war , we were defending ourselves..I am sure there would not be a good relationship now.

 

Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour, but today they Japanese and Americans can get along....Its just an acknowledgement that we are looking for.

 

Maybe Arp and Sev can articulate it better.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I have a question regarding the Armenian genocide...

Why does it matter who calls it genocide? It's beyond horrific and those people should be remembered and honoured, but why does a label or an acknowledgement from someone who wasn't alive matter? I'm just trying to understand.

 

In one manner, I think "whats the point of the word?" and I can understand your line of thinking.

 

In another manner, if my family were murdered, and it was premeditated, I wouldn't want someone to deny that it ever happened, to blame the victims for dying, or to later suggest that it was really self defence.

It is what it is. It was a genocide, and it is difficult to heal and move forward when some people tell you it never happened.

You have to realize that there are Turks today who fight to keep the truth out, and that is why many Armenians, if not 99% of them, have an issue with Turkey/Turks.

 

Keep in mind, you can be charged in Canada for denying the holocaust occurred. Aren't those just words?

 

 

In the greater picture, IMO, it is important to label it that because you want there to be consequences for future perpetrators and you want there to be a global outcry for EVERYONE who is a victim of genocide. When I hear of what went on, and is still going on in Rwanda, my heart aches.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Is it a matter of closure? Is the admission from Turkey what matters? Canada has called it genocide, as has the Pope; and any reasonable person able to put aside their nationality and religion would consider it genocide.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Is it a matter of closure? Is the admission from Turkey what matters? Canada has called it genocide, as has the Pope; and any reasonable person able to put aside their nationality and religion would consider it genocide.

 

For some, its closure. For others, it may have to do with restitution of some kind, I don't know.

Yes, the admission from Turkey is what matters most for me.

 

For me, it would just be about being able to mourn the dead, without feeling hatred+anger for the perpetrators+their descendants. I deal with Turks quite often in work, and do so with civility, but when you see groups of them marching in Canada denying what happened to my family, its hard not to hold some resentment+get angry...for me at least.

[GWCGWC 83]

I don't understand why a couple of people have told Serge to STFU because they don't want to talk about radicalized opinions publicly but they would be fine talking to him in a private conversation.

 

It seems counterproductive to me if the issues Serge brought up can only be spoken about between Armenians in private.

[serge 904]

Is it a matter of closure? Is the admission from Turkey what matters? Canada has called it genocide, as has the Pope; and any reasonable person able to put aside their nationality and religion would consider it genocide.

 

I dont think the US or other nations are important as obviously Turkey...If Turkey came out and called it Genocide , I think we can see closure..We are missing a huge opportunity geographically to be neighbours and partners with Turkey..They can be a great ally...I think that notion is far fetched but it can happen.

 

There are Turks in Turkey that believe that it was Genocide..It only takes one forward and modern Turkish President to get this going..We are not close to that though IMO.

 

The one thing, I think I tried to get across wrongly before is that, we as Armenians hating Turkey in general doesnt do anything for our cause..There are stories of Turks in 1915 that actually helped the Armenians, there is one particular official who saved hundreds of Armenian lives. He was not looked upon well from his people.

 

An example..Few years ago there was a Turkish player that came to the Raptors. Turkoglu..Great player(didnt work out here) but there was Armenians who hated the guy and booed him just because he was Turkish. And as Arp said this is a significant percentage of Armenians that feel this way. It does no good, and doesnt get us anywhere.

 

We need to fight for the memory of our ancestors that were assassinated and get the word out to people. I think a lot of people are more aware of our plight now then ever before..

[serge 904]

I don't understand why a couple of people have told Serge to STFU because they don't want to talk about radicalized opinions publicly but they would be fine talking to him in a private conversation.

 

It seems counterproductive to me if the issues Serge brought up can only be spoken about between Armenians in private.

 

that issue is up for debate.

[GWCGWC 83]

I don't know how anyone could forgive Turkey without being many generations removed. I also don't know anyone would deny their human right to defend themselves by not taking steps to be armed no matter what country they currently reside. I would expect it to be harder to ignore the dark side of humanity when your very recent ancestors were targets of genocide.

[serge 904]

I don't know how anyone could forgive Turkey without being many generations removed. I also don't know anyone would deny their human right to defend themselves by not taking steps to be armed no matter what country they currently reside. I would expect it to be harder to ignore the dark side of humanity when your very recent ancestors were targets of genocide.

 

Without getting all religious, as a Christian we our taught to forgive and move on..

 

Forgiveness however cant happen until , we are satisfied with recognition of what has happened.

[digitalmonkey 929]

I can understand that, Arp. I can only imagine how it makes you feel. The problem is you will never get everyone to agree, or admit in this case. There will always be some who will deny it for one reason or another. Some still deny the Holocaust, or the moon landing for that matter. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you will never have closure or not feel that anger if you rely on others. From the little I know about it I would think those Turks who March in denial are actually validating it more by marching. I hope you understand that.

[mrdannyg 274]

I'm not someone who is active on facebook in any way (as most of you will attest), but I have been more of a lurker than usual the last few weeks due to my interest level peaking on a couple of matters.

 

Just wondering, but am I the only one who finds it incredible what people will say so publicly? We are all aware of how the anonymity of the internet allows some to be complete asses and say whatever they want, but on facebook, I am amazed these days at what people are willing to say, and allow for all to see. (well, all being their friends+family I suppose)

Or is there a way to limit the exposure that I am missing?

 

Case in point, a friend of mine remarked about a recent political decision by President Obama, in a civil manner. Then, a bunch of people started making statements like

"a Mulsim Zionist President"

"what do you expect his middle name is Hussein" or "Barack Obama is a pussy"

these are all people who obviously are broadcasting to their worlds this is how they think, and the "pussy" guy happens to be related to me thru marriage, but from whom I expected such childish behaviour.

these are not teenagers, but men+women in their 30's, 40's 50's.

 

Does this not show a lack of civility and being able to respect a President of the US no matter his political decisions?

Or, am I too sensitive?

 

Similar thing happened to be with the Ferguson news. I was blown away by what people would say, with their names and faces attached. I had an elementary school teacher say things that would've gotten her fired in a minute had she said them in a classroom (or maybe, if people had reported it). I don't really understand it.

 

Also, I think you meant "piquing" ;0

[digitalmonkey 929]

 

 

Without getting all religious, as a Christian we our taught to forgive and move on..

 

Forgiveness however cant happen until , we are satisfied with recognition of what has happened.

 

Forgiveness is for your own peace of mind, not someone else's.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I don't understand why a couple of people have told Serge to STFU because they don't want to talk about radicalized opinions publicly but they would be fine talking to him in a private conversation.

 

It seems counterproductive to me if the issues Serge brought up can only be spoken about between Armenians in private.

Serge is free to post whatever he wants.

I also have a right to post and tell him to STFU, if I think his posts are lies, generalizations and imply things that are simply not true.

 

He can keep posting all he wants, but I will tell him to STFU, and then say that my retort are for private, because some issues cannot be discussed through the written word.

Would you not agree that a forum, with posts, is not always the best place to discuss an issue, and in person is better? I have no issues with doing it publicly, I have issues with doing it publicly here. If you want to meet up in Toronto, Im game!

 

Also, what pisses me off the most is that you now think there is a fair amount of truth in what he said, and have now possibly began to question Armenians. If not you, maybe others.

There are radicals in every single group, to showcase and discuss them and paint "many Armenians" with that brush is unfair.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I also don't know anyone would deny their human right to defend themselves by not taking steps to be armed no matter what country they currently reside.

 

sorry, i dont understand this line?

[serge 904]

Radicals in EVERY group give the group a bad name in general..

 

I dont understand how there are Americans with an IQ above 50 that hate all Muslims, because certain Muslims have perpetuated terrorist attacks..

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I can understand that, Arp. I can only imagine how it makes you feel. The problem is you will never get everyone to agree, or admit in this case. There will always be some who will deny it for one reason or another. Some still deny the Holocaust, or the moon landing for that matter. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you will never have closure or not feel that anger if you rely on others. From the little I know about it I would think those Turks who March in denial are actually validating it more by marching. I hope you understand that.

 

Yup, I know exactly what you mean. And those who march, are slowly becoming more+more of a "joke" because of the awareness+recognition over the last 20/30years, which is good.

I think it would be easier to laugh at the fringes, if they didnt have a whole country behind them, if they didnt have the President of the USA agreeing with them.

 

If I am ever get to a state where I am able to ignore everyone in this world, it will surely be a blissful day. Or, I will be dead.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Radicals in EVERY group give the group a bad name in general..

 

I dont know how you define group, but not true.

 

Quick, last terrorist incident in North America/Europe was by this nationality.....

anyone guess Canadian????

 

No one thinks of Canadians as terrorists just because of what happened in Ottawa just 7 months ago.

[serge 904]

I am not as adamant about the President of the United States using one term to solidify our history.

 

I mean these people on Facebook today are equating Obama to Erdogan(Turkish President) . Obama is a politician, the ramifications of him using the word Genocide is immense...As right and just as it would be , he cant handle it politically..He is weighing upsetting Armenians to upsetting the country of Turkey as his ally..

 

Its not even him that makes these decisions IMO.

[serge 904]

I dont know how you define group, but not true.

 

Quick, last terrorist incident in North America/Europe was by this nationality.....

anyone guess Canadian????

 

No one thinks of Canadians as terrorists just because of what happened in Ottawa just 7 months ago.

 

Well GROUP would mean ISIS or Al Qeida...These are muslim groups that are terrorists...Muslims in general are peaceful people..I have so many Muslim friends.

 

I dont think that attack qualifies as Canadians are terrorists..If it happened 4 more times, than maybe we get a rep as being terrorists(wrongly)

[GWCGWC 83]

Serge is free to post whatever he wants.

I also have a right to post and tell him to STFU, if I think his posts are lies, generalizations and imply things that are simply not true.

 

He can keep posting all he wants, but I will tell him to STFU, and then say that my retort are for private, because some issues cannot be discussed through the written word.

Would you not agree that a forum, with posts, is not always the best place to discuss an issue, and in person is better? I have no issues with doing it publicly, I have issues with doing it publicly here. If you want to meet up in Toronto, Im game!

 

Also, what pisses me off the most is that you now think there is a fair amount of truth in what he said, and have now possibly began to question Armenians. If not you, maybe others.

There are radicals in every single group, to showcase and discuss them and paint "many Armenians" with that brush is unfair.

 

Of course you can do, say, think, feel, express, etc whatever you want. I'm just saying from an outsider reading last weeks posts that it seems like these issues should be out of the closet and brought into the light of day if you will. I think Armeniansanyone should feel free to speak openly about the different positions within a group instead of only to each other behind closed doors even if it's about the more radical or militant positions. I know it's complicated and not an easy thing to communicate in writing.

 

Everyone has generalized positions and opinions they can share in 140 characters or less as you've recently seen on facebook and twitter.

 

 

sorry, i dont understand this line?

 

I'd make sure I had access to weapons, know how to use them, I'd make sure my children knew how to use them, and that they understood the reason behind why they need to know how to use them.

 

Does this sound radical? I think it's common sense and any disconnect is ignoring history, recent or otherwise.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Radicals in EVERY group give the group a bad name in general..

 

Well GROUP would mean ISIS or Al Qeida...These are muslim groups that are terrorists..

 

IF by what you just said that group means ISIS, you seem to be implying there are non-radicals in ISIS and that the radicals amongst them give them a bad name.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I'd make sure I had access to weapons, know how to use them, I'd make sure my children knew how to use them, and that they understood the reason behind why they need to know how to use them.

Does this sound radical? I think it's common sense and any disconnect is ignoring history, recent or otherwise.

 

Interesting. What recent history are you referring to?

I can only assume you mean in todays first world life? I dont know, thats your opinion, and not one I share.

IMO, I could arm myself and my child, but if the army comes into my town to kill me, all thats going to happen is a quicker death for me going out fighting.

 

My thoughts on the history of that time is that arming every Armenian would have had little effect at all in the "fight"/genocide. In fact, many of them were armed, they were just grossly outnumbered and their powers+arms no match for the Turkish military of that time.

This wasnt locals vs locals, if the US Army decides to invade my home suburb today, all the guns in the world aren't going to help me.

[GWCGWC 83]

Yeah, my position sounds radical.

 

The history of violence against every single racial population in the world since before recorded history shows us targeted violence is guaranteed to happen over and over again.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Yeah, my position sounds radical.

 

The history of violence against every single racial population in the world since before recorded history shows us targeted violence is guaranteed to happen over and over again.

 

you're saying it can be stopped by arming the citizens?

I'm honestly asking, not trying to "argue" or be wise ass. Just trying to understand your opinion.

 

And I dont know what qualifies as "radical", so I don't judge your opinions.

Sometimes radical thinking is the best way to find the answer to a problem.

[GWCGWC 83]

Yes, armed citizens can make a difference in conflicts. I know you, and probably most people on this forum, don't share in this opinion which is a luxury Canadians and citizens of the U.S. are afforded due to this exact place and time. Nobody knows what the future holds but I contend that history and human nature shouldn't be ignored.