me and t9suited heads up

[Guest]

good info zarawhat do you think is 109's play here then? Does he just call down? I don't really see folding this on the flop as an option. I still see value in raising the flop to get some indication of where you're at. Just calling down seems very weak (it could be a better play, we know wrto is aggressive though and said he was being more aggressive b/c 109 was on a bad run). I really believe we have the best hand here.

I think calling down is best. Because of wrto's aggression, it's best to use that against him in this case and just call down IMO. It's important to note that even if you DO have the best and are WAY ahead, you DON'T want to raise because it will make you lose bets that wrto would otherwise put in. He's only going to call all the way down with at least a pair so taking away wrto's bluffing ability only costs you money (which is the idea behind the passivity of a wa/wb line.)The only time a flop raise is good is when wrto has a good enough made hand/draw to warrant calling down if you raise. This happens with him having a Q worse than you or a flush draw and maybe JJ or 1010 (though I think he'd check/fold these on the turn without picking up a flush or straight draw)As for what cards does wrto have, it's hard to tell at this point, other than it's above average. Given wrto's current mood I would say any A, any pocket pair 77 or higher (possibly lower), K8s or better, K9o or better, Q10s or better, QJo or better, and maybe 10Js. You are ahead of most of these now and I think you are ahead as well. However, a lot of these may have good draws if suited in hearts or are way behind you so you don't want to get him to stop betting into you.Zara

[Smiff85 0]

I'd raise heads up with middle pair that way you'll find out if he has the Ace or not. Zara made a good argument for just calling but theres a flush draw out there and you should make him pay to get there and even if he doesnt have a flush draw you dont want him drawing out cheaply.

[Erudis 0]

you should just do what i do in limit: cap every street, let the poker gods sort it out

[brando 0]

wrto curious about the results here, post 'em?

[wrto4556 0]

I bet, T9 calls.Turn is a blank.I bet, T9 calls.River is another A.I bet, T9 calls.I show AQ and take down the pot.I like the way he played it, though. That's why I wanted to post it.

[109suited 0]

That seems like the way things have been going lately for me. I play the right way, and end up screwed anyway.

[Canada 0]

Any thoughts on call the flop, raise the turn, check the river UI?

[bascomeb 0]

canda theres no way that wrto just calls the raise on turn. he'll 3 bet it and now you're screwed

[Guest]

Any thoughts on call the flop, raise the turn, check the river UI?

What does a raise here accomplish? Hands you already have beat are going to fold except for maybe a good draw. The only better hand you might get to fold here is KQ and that is doubtful.What if you're 3-bet? Do you fold? That's even worse because you may lose the whole pot when you might have won otherwise.The only thing a raise on the turn accomplishes is spewing chips. You lose more when you're beat and win less when you're ahead.Zara

[Canada 0]

canda theres no way that wrto just calls the raise on turn. he'll 3 bet it and now you're screwed

That's a bit results orientated, but in this hand yes wrto 3 bets and you fold - so what? How many outs do you have?What if wrto is holding A 5 ? Does he three bet the turn (fair enough wrto might :wink: , but the vast majority of players don't)

The only thing a raise on the turn accomplishes is spewing chips. You lose more when you're beat and win less when you're ahead.Zara

Actually it achieves a bit more than that. Lets go through a range of possible holdings for wrto:Much stronger hands:If it is 3-bet back on the turn you can suggest you are up against 2 pair or better in which case you are calling to 2 outs or possibly none. A fold is no great loss here and you have spent no extra than call, call.A big bonus is you escape situations where you are drawing dead and you hit a Q or a J on the river and raise, costing you at least 2 more bets.The obvious exception is AK or an opponent that will 3 bet AJ or less. But in these cases by calling down turn and river you were commiting 2 big bets to win 6 (maybe 7 if you improve) as I'm assuming you will call a river bet and wrto will call a river raise with an A. So against these holdings:

• he raises and you fold it costs no more and you were a dog any wayIf you go into call, call you don't have the odds and are making a mistake
  • Please note that the 2 statements above apply specifically to wrto 3 betting a holding of AK, AJ-2. I understand I'm due a big flame there if you take this out of contextNet result: +EV when drawing dead,and I'm going to suggest a small -EV for the AK, AJ-2 holding despite the fact that across all opponents I suspect the number of times TP 3 bets is offset by the times A5-A2 is foldedSlightly better or equal hands:It may get KQ to fold, as well as some weaker Aces and QJ. Whilst these are small chances it does produce fold equity, at no extra cost compared to call, call.Net result: big +EVWeaker Holdings:Is the number of times QT etc calls a raise (offered 7-1) offset by the number of times QT etc leads the river if you call, call?I'd say it's pretty close Net result: 0Draws:You get an extra bet out of draws when they missNet result: +EVPure bluffs:You may be losing some EV if they were going to lead the river, but I think that is fairly rareNet result: Small -EVOverall I think it's actually +EV to raise the turn. It won't be huge, but it gives you an edge.wa/wb with position, it's pretty common to raise the turn for a free showdown, especially against better players.Its similar in concept to the c/c, c/c, b line for wa/wb when out of position - like this line you just need the discipline to fold to a reraise and to check the river UI.Yes if he raises you fold, and that is a downside but it is safe to say a reraise on the turn suggests you are beat and possibly drawing dead (or at least with incorrect odds).Have a read of DN's thoughts:

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...pic.php?t=13797http://live.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/...ves/?a_id=12911 Have a think about it, I'd like to hear some comments.As a final thought there are players out there that use this line a lot. 2/4 and 3/6 its pretty rare, but from 5/10 up if you see a TA raise/fold the turn you can be fairly sure this is the line he was employing and it's a nice note to have on a player.