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how depressing... can anyone help?


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some of you may know that i'm a college student (just finished freshman year at MIT) who's 18 years old and takes poker very seriously. i have flaws in my game, like everyone, but i know that i am a winning player, and i work hard every day to find leaks in my game, to study, and to become better.i don't have any pipe dreams of dropping out of college, rolling up a stake and going to vegas to give it a shot, but i do know that poker is an inevitable part of my life now and likely will be until my dying day. i don't plan on becoming a professional poker player (though where life takes me no one knows), but i do plan on poker being an important source of income even when i have a real job.i've always played online poker secretly relative to my parents. they know very little about me and poker, and they don't know that i gamble at all. my dad compares gambling to sex, drugs, smoking and alcohol in that he believes it is a terrible thing to do, and he cites bingo and the lottery as examples of how gambling is just throwing your money away. my dad is also not the type of man who's very open-minded about the world, since he was raised overseas in an environment where education and work was everything, and even things like music were looked down upon. so, i have just never bothered to share this.however, since turning 18, i've started to see the real potential of poker and playing online. i have big plans for this summer to really increase my bankroll, but at the same time, i feel like i could be using some poker winnings to help pay for my college self-help requirements and whatnot. so today, i had a conversation with my brother (a senior at another college) about it over the phone.my brother is someone who also enjoys poker, but he doesn't take it nearly as seriously as i do, nor is he as into it as i am. of all people, i thought he could understand and relate most and try to help me out if i decided to open up about it to my parents, and perhaps explain to them how it's a game of skill, how there are bankroll requirements so that the risk of ruin is negligibly small, how it's so mathematical that there are expected winrates per hour and a standard deviation, etc.however, when i spoke with him on the phone, the conversation just degraded over time; it became really depressing. i mentioned the idea of using poker winnings to help pay for tuition, and we then started to argue since he stated that poker money should never be used for purposes like that. we then argued about the implications of playing poker as a job for anything, since it was likely taking time away from what i should be focusing more on, i.e. a real-world job. when i explained that i would still be having a real-world job and focusing on education, but that poker would be more profitable per hour, he argued about its unstability. when i argued that it's mathematical and that luck and fluctuations even out in the long run, he just didn't buy it.he argued that there is always a chance that i won't make as much as i need to, or that i could go broke, and i explained that using bankroll management rules, that chance can be minimized to as little as 0.1%, but he came back saying that there is still a chance. i said that there's a chance that ANYTHING in the world can happen--if i have a real-world job, they might lose all the papers in a fire, and even if that chance is negligibly small, it's still possible, but he didn't buy that, either.he then argued that there is a big difference between playing poker for a job and having a real life and playing poker on the side, and i argued that this isn't necessarily true. i brought up the example of smash, a person who has a real-life job of writing but also has a real-life job of playing poker, which contributes to a big part of his income. i'm not sure how the argument degraded from there, but i got the feeling that he didn't realize that i can still take poker very seriously even though it's not a job.we ended the conversation talking about what to do with the winnings; he was arguing that since it's unstable, i shouldn't be mixing poker winnings with real income; i shouldn't be relying on it. instead, i should be using it for fun things that i don't need, like going out to dinner, buying clothes, things like that. when i countered that eventually, i hope to be making poker income in the range of a real job, that it would be ridiculous to still think i should only use that for "fun" things when i should in fact be relying on it as a second income, etc., he argued that there is no cushion and it just isn't practical.anyway, i don't remember too many other details, but it was pretty depressing trying to talk about poker in this way to someone who i thought understood it well but really doesn't. after thinking about it and after experiencing this, there is no way that i will open up about poker to my parents anytime soon. if that means that i will just have to keep building my bankroll and not using money that my parents could probably use to help me out with college, so be it.the point of this thread is just to get some feedback from all of you. did any of you have problems explaining these things to family and friends? how did you deal with it? do you still hide it? did you learn to just ignore others' objections? i'm really thinking of just compiling a big list of as many arguments as i can, and maybe if i decide to open up about poker to my parents sometime, i can just throw them as many arguments as i've got.i'll be searching cardplayer and negreanu's blogs and all that stuff, but i'm really interested to see how any of you faced these things. thanks in advance for the help.aseem

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I basically don't explain it even my best friends think I.m nuts and don't understand the concepts of mathematical expectaion and so forth, there is no reason to tell my mother, as I'm sure she would'nt understand either.

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Hmm, I can't exactly relate to what you're going through as "serious" poker didn't enter my life until I was out on my own... but I think the bottom line is there are two ways you'll always be looked at if you tell someone you play "serious" poker: they either look at you with awe... or look at you like you're crazy.Personally, if someone wants to talk poker, I will... if they think it's crazy and don't get it, I let it go...I think you're wasting your time trying to win a debate with your brother or your parents. You said yourself it's not like you're going to drop out of school and move to Vegas... you just see this as a passion and a possible revenue stream. Go with it and don't worry about the reaction of others. Avoid those who think you're crazy... and embrace those of us who are as crazy as you are. :wink: p2

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That really sucks.What sucks even more is how the outside world is so ignorant that they can not realize that poker is not just luck.While my parents are not totally against poker like your parents; they still believe that it is very unstable and should only be for fun. They still think that i play for like 5 and 10 dollars at a time, and that losing 20 dollars is very substantial. Last year I played in and won a tourney, making $450. When i got home my parents if I had won, I told them I won $30, knowing that if they knew how much I won, they would have been angry. Like you, I too plan on having poker as a source of income in the future along with a normal job.If I were to tell my parents this they would dissaprove of it. They would probably say the same things that your brother said, and I would argue, while never changing their minds.If my parents dissaprove of it, I will just say screw them and move on. If they really loved me then they should believe me, and support me.When your parents dissaprove, telll them: "Hey, I got into MIT, I am a pretty smart guy, I THINK I know what I am doing."

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Im 17 and I play I'm sure your parents understand if you work hard at studying as well and prove your profits to them and also help out with your fees for college. Also I have same plans as you to get real job but have poker as second income. If you need to keep it to yourself then do because it would be terrible if your parents tried to stop you this would make you want to play even more. This would solve it. Play solid poker be careful keep it quiet also and you should be ok. GL

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Hey, Akishore:I've had a few experiences with what you're talking about, and not all were good. But most were.I have one friend who's a loser. He's a brilliant guy, but his life-philosophy is... well, it's very malleable. He doesn't believe in all that much, except not working all that hard. But he really took to poker, and even though he's got 3x the skill I'll ever had, I was his mentor and his guide; I taught him how game selection is more important than ability sometimes, and that even perfect play can't stop the inevitable downswing. I was there to help and get him back on his feet when he flunked out of school, and I was there to prop him up with my own cash when he went bust the first time. Now he's making survivial level money playing poker 20 hours a week. He destroys 100NL s/h games, and will likely have a career doing so. His parents are both respected judges. I've known his dad for some time, and explained to him that his son was wasting his time looking for a real job. I showed him all the records I'd kept of my friend's success, and the mathematical proof that this success was merely a reflection of longrun gains one could reasonably expect according to probability. It took him some time, but as the money kept rolling in, he saw the light. He doesn't get it, but he trusts me. My life, however, was different. I've never wanted to be a professional. I make a few grand a year to pay for utilities and cover rent in good months. My parents, however, didn't understand. They still don't. To them, gambling isn't something their son should be DOING with his life. "You were a National Merit Scholar! You got into Harvard!"To my family, there was something inherently BAD about poker. Wrong. Like it was a reflection of my inner-laziness, of my inability to get a real grip ont he world, to make a difference. When I paid for a semester at Michigan myself, and took them out to dinner once a month, they began to see that I was more than lucky, but that I understood what I was doing. Slowly but surely my father began to understand the "why" of winning, and how it truly was a longterm test of ability. I sat him down, even though he didn't want me to, and fed it to him a little at a time. He's a very smart man, and when I showed him where the money came from, and how I was BETTER than others, he saw the light. What really got him was this, "Dad, what if you had to play cribbage against your brothers every day for a dime a point? Think you could win in the longrun?"He still hates it. He thinks it's a dishonest living. "You're TAKING MONEY FROM PEOPLE!" When I suggest he's doing the same by working for a company that manufactures auto-parts overseas, he suggests, "That's different." And it is, I suppose, but poker will ALWAYS touch a nerve for certain people. It's dishonest. The connotations of poker are- and likely will be for some time- negative.So here was my solution: I do what I do, and I do it without my parents' blessing, but without their outright condemnation either. I've taught them to trust me, and they've responded cautiously. But I'm cautiously optimistic. I don't NEED them to love it. I need them to see it, understand it, and ACCEPT it. Ice

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Here's the way i look at it. You're going to MIT. Around 42k$ a year for tuition and room/board and all. From what i've seen around here of you, i'd say you could make a significant dent in that amount through poker in the course of a year. Explain to your parents about this, and make a deal with them. A certain percent of what you win goes towards your tuition, while the rest goes to you, for whatever you wish to use it for. In return, all you ask is that they support you, or at the very least trust you enough to accept that you play poker competetivley

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thanks for all the replies so far. i appreciate it. i'll address them later when i'm not so busy.aseem

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Well, my friends, for the most part, accept the fact that I play poker. In fact, I've swayed a few to play some.My mom, on the other hand, is very bipolar about it. She doesn't mind me watching it on TV, in fact she's watched a couple tournaments with me. Then after them, she says, "Now do you see how foolish this pursuit is?" Yeah, ok.Next, she buys me the hand-held WSOP LHE game in January. Then takes it away because I'm playing it. Trust me, she is not so bipolar with everything else (except my choice in girls).She even support the thought of me playing the occasional tournament. But then she retracts it, once I talk about satelliting in to a major event, because if I satellited in to it and made the money, "that would lead to problem gambling."It's quite ironic how she fuels the fire that I need to play and then tries to dowse it out as quickly as she poured the gas on it.Now that I'm out of the house, when she calls, I just mute my computer's sound so she doesn't know. Anyone else, I could care less.She may change her mind when I get into a major and have a shot at winning. But, then, with the above examples...who knows?

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Update. My father just called, and said he read "Theory of Poker" from cover to cover in one sitting. I got it for him a few weeks ago, but he never picked it up. He wants to play, sometime, see if he gets it. He needed me to help him with some of the more counterintuitive concepts, but he was rambling on about it, like he was excited about it. Ice

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what do u expect? they are just worried about you. they dont want u to lose all your money. the best thing to do its just not tell or talk to them about it. most people lose money playing poker over the long run. that 0.1% number(if correct) is unrealistic because if it was that easy everyone would do it. even the best players have lost their BR. if u think u can make extra money playing poker thats great but i tell u this, the chance of u going broke and getting into debt are a lot higher then u seem to realize.

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If it wasn't for poker 11 years ago, I would never have been able to make it through college (money). Do what you need to do. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders but you are also going to MIT. :club: I went to RIT and I have to admit, my studies slipped a bit. But I made it. So can you. Justin

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I can kind of relate to you - though my situation isn't near as extreme.I had been playing mostly play money while I was 16 and 17 and just before my 18th birthday I started getting serious about it. When I turned 18 (last December), I bought my first poker book, "The Copmlete Book of Hold'em Poker" by Gary Carson. I wanted to play for real money - I figured it would be exciting. I was reading it one day and I left it in the tv room of the house while I went and did something else. Somehow my dad took a look at it. He had seen all the time I spent playing, heard about how much play money I "made," and said he wanted to give me $100 to use. I, of course, loved the idea - as I already planned on getting Super System as was reccomended on RGP.My mother, however, was not so thrilled. She saw it as a game of complete luck where you're relying completely on the random cards. I tried to explain it to her - but she wasn't having any of it. Amidst her protests, my dad gave me the 100 to use, equating it to putting 100 in the stock market. I went up and down during that month of January and when I left for my dorm at the end of the month, I was down to $30.I took a month off. Read RGP, studied my books, played a few live SnG's with friends. I came back near the end of the month and caught some cards. I eventually got it back up to $125 and by Spring Break, I had reached $500. When I came back, I surprised my parents and told them. My dad was thrilled, as was my mom (though skeptical).Since then, she has warmed up to the game (slowly) and recognizes that I worked very hard to get where I am and that this is a game of skill. Now that my dad wants to play, she tells him, "Not until you read all of the books your son has read."It takes time. You've gotta tell them eventually and when they see you continue winning, hopefully they will come around. Don't push yourself though. Do it when you're ready to - and then stick to your guns. Educate them on it. It takes courage to do it - and we know you have a lot of that. :club:

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It definitely sounds like your family's heart is in the right place, which means in the long run, they'll want what's best for you. I never had this problem, even if my father doesn't care for gambling (despite being extremely gifted in math).My recommendation would be to continue playing, but make sure it doesn't impact your studies. Do well in school, do well for yourself and they'll be happy for you. Down the road, if you're in a place in life where the prospect of you losing money playing poker wouldn't cripple you, I'm sure they'll be more receptive to the idea.Or you could just play them in a ten dollar freezeout 100 times and see if that expensive lesson learns them. :)Peace,Jay

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As a father of two kids in college, I'd like to reply.First, congrats at getting into MIT. (I used to be a member of the technical staff at their linear accelerator laboratory.) Just by being where you are you've demonstrated intelligence and discipline. Those are 2 of the most important assets you can have in poker.It sounds like your family is very strict. That can be a blessing and a curse. And I'm sure your family is concerned about your future. While I don't like to recommend hiding things from your parents, at this stage of your life I would suggest that now is not the best time to try and discuss this subject.I would suggest keeping things quiet while you stay in school. Apply yourself to your education first and poker second. If you continue to do well at poker, the money earned will help ease your parent's financial burden. And if you can, over time, maintain good grades as well as help out financially it will be hard indeed for your parents to argue with success.So best of luck and GET THAT EDUCATION!LOLEd

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I've contacted you personally Aseem. But I'll give a few thoughts here as well, I am lucky, very lucky and fortunate to have a father who played poker for nearly all of his income over the stretch of 3-4 years when he lived in California quite some time ago. I have always had his support in showing my mother that it is something you can make money at. Over the course of college I got 3 guys playing online, just by watching me, seeing that I was winning etc.. One of them has really excelled and he has become a very profitable player at his stakes (currently with his online b/r that started at $10 from me he plays the 25 NL games on party). His parents were not happy, but his father was understanding once he saw the profits and I talked with his father for about an hour on the phone. He approached his parents about quitting his summer job where he makes a measly $8 an hour, he brought excel sheets showing his average hourly wage while playing online and basically explaining to them he was losing $10 an hour the time he spent at work. The aknowledged that he was right, but made him keep his job.The misconception in America about poker is basically that it's gambling, when most people here would agree, at atleast should agree that if you approach the game correctly, and use proper bankroll management the "luck" factor is brought closer to 0% than it is 5% or even 50%.A lot of younger players face this problem, I would argue Aseem has it worst than most, based on his parents background. I am best friends with someone who's parents are exactly like Aseem's, they chose his University for him based on where his father and grandfather had gone etc. Not saying thats how it worked with Aseem, I'm sure no parents deny there child going to MIT. But when it came to anything other than a steady job or school work they were weary...I guess I would try to keep it under the table, I offered to help my parents with my tuition with my poker income, letting the College Debts run there way while investing the money into accounts that will grow faster than the College Loans we're going to have to take out soon.It just comes down to people who don't play poker not understanding...

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rolling up a stake and going to vegas to give it a shot,
cliche police....Sorry, had to point that out, I suppliment my income with poker money also during this summer, to pay for my summer course, and rent. My parents now fully understand. I'm still working with computers as a resume builder, and other source of income, but I earn much more from poker.I suggest you teach your brother about EV, use the EV coin flip scenario, show him that although luck is a factor short term, you will always win in the long run. as long as each flip is positive for you, the more flips you have, the less gamble involved. my mother easily understood what i was doing, but my father took much more convincing, but after explaining EV, showing my pokertracker records, and explaining bankroll managment he started coming along. He makes fun of me now when i'm playing "sorry I didnt know you are at work, when your boss gives you a break I need to ask you something about my computer" But at least he understands now, and actually starting to support my playing.Good luck, I understand where you are coming from.
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I'm ten years older than you are and have a job, but I still understand what you are going through. I play poker almost every Saturday Night at a local poker club. It wouldn't really matter to me what my parents thought about it if it wasn't for the fact that I usually have to rely on them to watch my daughter for me. My father is a Minister and doesn't quite understand why his intelligent, successful and responsible daughter has decided to spend most of her free time playing poker. At first I tried to explain about things such as bank roll management and how poker is a game of skill and not just luck...but they would just end up staring at me with a glazed over look. People who don't play poker just don't understand.I've learned to not discuss money with them. If they ask how I did I usually answer with " I had a good night" or something along that line. If I mention winning or losing money they usually look at me like I've turned into a denegerate gambler and they'll some day find me dead in gutter in Vegas. It's frustrating not being able to talk about something that has become a big part of my life with my family, but for now it is for the best. Don't let your family's lack of enthusiasm dissuade you from playing. If you want to talk about poker ....you always have us here at FCP to talk to :-) .

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Aki,When I read your post I swear it was the same exact conversation Ive had with my dad numerous times!The Only advice I can offer is to accually be open about it. When you show them the results and you have the proof of how much money youve made, EVENTUALLY (but it will take a long time) The Numbers will speak for itself. The Evidence will just be too overwhelming in your favor.I used the Craps example to convince mom (altho dad isnt convinced yet)I asked my mom what would happen if i stood at a craps table eveyday for 4 months and played. Id Go broke!So i aksed if poker is just anothet gambling game based on luck how can i play everyday for 4 months and turn a $4000 profit?Like i said...you cant argue with results.

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My dad is a very strange man. It took me months to explain to him that poker is a very profitable game. I used baseball as an example. Even the best players in the world can't always hit the ball. They can have an average of .400, which is simply amazing, but still have days which they strikeout every time. It's all about the long run. I also showed him a few of my freeroll tournament results. He was impressed by this so he got me my debit/credit card.After a few weeks, he asked me how I was doing and I said good. He then started saying something like "you know you're just going to lose all of your money, don't you?" It was very weird since he's the one who got me the card, so I guess he was hoping that I would lose my money to teach me a lesson. I told him that even if I did lose, it was money that wouldnt matter to me that much if I lost it.It has been about 6 months since my first deposit, and I have turned a nice profit from poker. He still thinks that I'm going eventually lose it all. I've told him about poker tracker and the mathematics behind being a successful player and that there are smart plays and dumb plays. He just doesnt really get it. Many people who know I play poker online, even people who play home poker games, think that I"m going to lose all of my money. They are under the assumption that I play with my whole BR at one table, even though I have told them many, maaaaaaany times that I dont. I try to explain the importance of BR management, but they dont get it. I eventually came to the conclusion that they will never get it and remain ignorant.My step dad is an architect and has simply worked his ass off to become the head of his company. He doesnt care how well I do, he thinks it's wrong. He understands that it is a game of skill, but he disagrees about the honesty of the game. I told him that if I do well in the future, I will buy my mom and him a really nice house. He said he wouldnt want it. He is very stubborn. I was going to write more and proofread, but I have to go somewhere right now. Maybe my thoughts are a little messed up as I typed them out, but I'm sure you get the main gist of it.

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Blah, Blah, Blah.I got so board with your post that I had to stop half way in. If you are looking for total strangers to encourage you to play poker for a living forget about any constructive advice from players who are not looking to take your BR. Your parents are right. Don't play Poker for a living. If you are good enough to play for a living you would not need to ask advice from total strangers on the mater. I think that you will find most players who make a living doing it kind of just progressed into it. It went from being a casual thing where extra money was made to a living when they could make more money doing it then anyother mode of earning. I don't think that most pros could define a single moment that they became pro; it just happened and with hind sight it became clear that they were playing pro. Stick to school and get a real job. If Poker makes you a decent enough living you won't need to ask

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Your putting me to sleep with this shit man. Obviously you have issues.I say you should take all of your tuition money, go to Vegas and roll it into a big cash game. :twisted:

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