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Every point you've made about your 'logic' has been refuted over and over and yet you continue to claim it hasn't. Every question has been answered often multiple times but then a million pages pass and you claim they haven't been.You've continued to conflict yourself repeatedly: first you say when you c r not another chip goes in the pot-then its not another chip goes in unless you either of you improve-then its well if you hit your flush villain may bet Aj Aq etc and you can check raise-or maybe value bet-this has changed at least four times to try to justify a horrible thought process which seems heavily based on getting to the river when you know what the turn is-which you wouldn't when you c r the flop .When myself and others have said IF you're going to take this line on the flop you should be leading this turn-your response is I thought about that but I like the turn card and think I can see if I get there for free and to i'm worried that the 6 may have completed the draw-i can not even wrap my head around this logic.You have said when we c c c you don't believe villain betting again "tells us anything or narrows their range" this is where I've stated and it's been agreed upon that villain could be betting 100% of his range on the flop and you state this-I assumed it to mean villain would bet 100% of their range on the turn. But then you changed it to villain may be value betting a hand like Aj on the turn-and if we would've c r we'd get to see our draw for free cus he wouldn't bet Aj again this is so flawed to try to justify a flop play cus you know what the turn is-if he's betting Aj here who gives a shit we are behind and not getting a good price fold and move on...Like I said I'm not sure English is your first language so maybe your not doing this intentionally
Welcome back, irishguy...You said:"You've continued to conflict yourself repeatedly: first you say when you c r not another chip goes in the pot-then its not another chip goes in unless you either of you improve-then its well if you hit your flush villain may bet Aj Aq etc and you can check raise-or maybe value bet-this has changed at least four times to try to justify a horrible thought process which seems heavily based on getting to the river when you know what the turn is-which you wouldn't when you c r the flop ."I rally have no idea what you're talking about here., as its not very coherant. I will say this, and I don't believe I am contradcting anything I have said previously (If I have feel free to point it out rather than making random assertions as to what I said... the evidence is right there in front of us). After the c/r I have no intention to put another chip into the pot unless we get to the river and improve.. and problably I need to improve significantly (flush/straight, boat, etc.) If we catch a monster on the river, of course I would be open to putting more into the pot. I think this should be clear.You said:"When myself and others have said IF you're going to take this line on the flop you should be leading this turn-your response is I thought about that but I like the turn card and think I can see if I get there for free and to i'm worried that the 6 may have completed the draw-i can not even wrap my head around this logic."Whether or not one SHOULD lead the turn has never been much of a debate. I have mentioned it as a fine play (in fact in my original post). I don't know that any of you have made much of a fuss over whether we should lead the turn. I would invite you to show me where this case has been made. That being said, the check on the turn is still ok for all the reasons I have mentioned (to repeat, it gives us a big draw and if we can get to the river cheaply, that would likely be preferred). I do not believe our opponent will bet in the majority of hands if we check the turn, so the lead/check decision is pretty much one based on risk aversion. Do we want to invest more chips on a draw here. I say there's probably no need to do so.You siad:"You have said when we c c c you don't believe villain betting again "tells us anything or narrows their range" this is where I've stated and it's been agreed upon that villain could be betting 100% of his range on the flop and you state this-I assumed it to mean villain would bet 100% of their range on the turn. But then you changed it to villain may be value betting a hand like Aj on the turn-and if we would've c r we'd get to see our draw for free cus he wouldn't bet Aj again this is so flawed to try to justify a flop play cus you know what the turn is-if he's betting Aj here who gives a shit we are behind and not getting a good price fold and move on..."Again, your commentary is pretty muddled.. with you saids, I saids, I take its.. etc, etc. In an attempt to undersand what you are saying here and clarify my position.... yes, the opponent may bet 100% of his range on the flop. After c/c on the flop, let's say he bets X% of his range. After c/r let's say he bets Y% of his range. It is my argument that X > Y and probably by a wide margin. I believe the c/r will prevent the villain from bluffing, semi-bluffing and making value bets with marginal hands (like A8/A10/AJ/AQ) on the turn. This encompasses a lot of his range. And by the way, you don't think its a fairly significant factor that our opponent won't bet a marginal hand that has us beat (like AJ or AQ) or even a hand which is tied (like A10), or a hand that we have beat (like A8) when him doing so in any of these situations will prevent us from seeing the river and maybe catching our outs (or being ahead from the start)? Again, you have all said you are folding to most bets on the turn. I would think preventing our oponent from betting no matter what he has would be paramount. You say, its ok if we c/c and he bets aj.. we just fold. Well great, we have just donated 6K and got nothing out of it (I will repeat again, we have virtually no chance of really improving on the turn). I say, let's donate 10K and make sure we get to the river without putting any more chips in or making any crucial mistakes.You said:"Like I said I'm not sure English is your first language so maybe your not doing this intentionally"Irishguy, please, do not lower yourself to the level of the absurd. Unlike some on this board, I do not feel the need to tout my "experience" or knowledge in the arena of the english language or anything else. It should be clear from anyone reading my posts that, outside of typos, I am perfectly capable of conveying my point of view with written words. You may not agree with what I have to say, but it is perfectly understandable for anyone with an once of reading comprehension. In fact, I probably go overboard to make sure my point is conveyed.
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Insecure much?I agree you aren't likely on my level, at least when it comes to deep analysis of hands. In the online world which you are neck-deep in, you make your living by making standard plays wit

Alright, I've caught up (this is a lie: I skimmed too much of the last 13 pages and not enough in-depth reading).I decided to make a full-fledged mathematical analysis of the hand. It's long and I ha

sometimes we must tear down so that we may rebuild.

CR to fold the flop is just so laughably bad it's just not even worth trying to explain to someone why it's bad after you been so adament it's a good play.You CR the flop to induce from draws or some stupid hand. Like Looshle said, this happens very rarely. Normally they just fold and you prevent them from continuing to bluff, which is bad.You are rarely losing to a better Ace. This is because your stack size pre-flop is going to receive a 3bet from AJ+ almost always, especially when playing 6max.Now I've gone against my own, "not feeding the troll" schtick, but I mean, really else can or needs be said that hasn't already been said.You think you're line is right/optimal. You're wrong. You don't care. Great. Neither do I. Good day and good riddance. I'm done responding. GL.

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CR to fold the flop is just so laughably bad it's just not even worth trying to explain to someone why it's bad after you been so adament it's a good play.You CR the flop to induce from draws or some stupid hand. Like Looshle said, this happens very rarely. Normally they just fold and you prevent them from continuing to bluff, which is bad.You are rarely losing to a better Ace. This is because your stack size pre-flop is going to receive a 3bet from AJ+ almost always, especially when playing 6max.Now I've gone against my own, "not feeding the troll" schtick, but I mean, really else can or needs be said that hasn't already been said.You think you're line is right/optimal. You're wrong. You don't care. Great. Neither do I. Good day and good riddance. I'm done responding. GL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0/threadnow stop feeding the troll.ill try a third time.
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CR to fold the flop is just so laughably bad it's just not even worth trying to explain to someone why it's bad after you been so adament it's a good play.You CR the flop to induce from draws or some stupid hand. Like Looshle said, this happens very rarely. Normally they just fold and you prevent them from continuing to bluff, which is bad.You are rarely losing to a better Ace. This is because your stack size pre-flop is going to receive a 3bet from AJ+ almost always, especially when playing 6max.Now I've gone against my own, "not feeding the troll" schtick, but I mean, really else can or needs be said that hasn't already been said.You think you're line is right/optimal. You're wrong. You don't care. Great. Neither do I. Good day and good riddance. I'm done responding. GL.
Thanks for the post, Jordan. You actually brought up one point which has not been raised in this thread to this point, at least not in my recollection... that being the question of the likelyhood our opponent having a hand like AJ through AK. I don't think I agree with your assumption that the button would always raise with these hands in this situation, but I would agree that this is by no means a certainty. If your read on the flop is that they don't likely have a hand like this, then I would raise other questions about the wisdom of c/c the flop. First, as to the inducing bluff scenario... I have to assume you disagree with just about all of the posters here and would at least call most bets from our opponent on the turn. After all, if your aim is to induce a bluff, how would folding on the turn work into that strategy?Now, if your read is that they don't have a big ace, then that pretty much leaves thre options. They either flopped big (set, two pair, etc.), or they have some sort of draw.. or they have very little (maybe middle pair or top pair small kicker. So my question to you, now that you have ruled out the big A hands is... what do you do on the turn when our opponent bets? Certainly calling would make sense if there's reason to believe they have that small A. But calling at all when they have a monster, or just calling when they are on a draw would seem to be mistakes. So, I will ask for what seems to be the thousandth time, what is your read on the turn, now that you have made this precise read on the flop that they don't have a big A? What "logic" do you use to make your decision.
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I personally believe, that U.S. Americans, are unable to do so, because uh, some, people out there, in our nation don’t have maps. I believe that our education like such as in South Africa, and the Iraq, everywhere like such as…and, I believe they should uh, our education over here, in the U.S. should help the U.S. or should help South Africa, and should help the Iraq and Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future, for us.Edit: Don't let the haters get you down. #teamakashenk

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lol@ the big ace argument not being brought up. are you ****ing serious. that was establish on one of the first pages of this thread. yes, you can rule out AK, and probably AQ, but AJ is borderline. You can also rule out weaker aces with the exception of maybe a10 and a suited a9So on the flop you have his range as bluffs, AJ, sets, two pair, and draws. And yes, you have to include hands like KQ, KQss, QJss, J10ss, etc. That's a really ****ing wide range and c/ring against that range puts you in the shittiest spot. Open folding would make more sense in that spot then c/r.On the turn once he bets again, and bets that big, his range becomes very limited because he's never betting that big with a bluff. So in the end it becomes more of a math problem which is really ****ing easy to do. No one said we're folding to every bet on the turn. But unless the math says otherwise, folding to this kind of bet on the turn may be best.You seriously have reading comprehension issues.I don't even remember the ****ing hand anymore

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Hi guys,New to tournament poker, and need your views on a hand that i felt I really misplayed. Have no idea how to copy paste from HH so here it goes.No stats avaliable cause I dont have PT or HM on this computer yet, all five players are pretty tight and straightforward and I have been picking up pots fairly easy last 30 min or so.Blinds: 600 - 1200Hero/donk/me: 30KButton: Just has me covered6-max table,We are in the money. Im on cutoff and its folded to me. AdTdHero: 2600Button: CallSB/BB: FoldsFlop: Ac 9d 7cHero: Check (Dont want to bet/call here, but check feels wrong for some reason)Button: Bet 4K into 7KMe: callTurn: Ac 9d 7c 6dHero: checkButton: bet 12KNow what?
Call, hope for a diamond.Or a ten.If you miss, look down at your chips, then check and act like you missed.If you hit your flush, jam it in.
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Call, hope for a diamond.Or a ten.If you miss, look down at your chips, then check and act like you missed.If you hit your flush, jam it in.
These sought of optimal plays, fly over the head of your average poster on these sought of forums, so the best line to take, is none at all.
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lol@ the big ace argument not being brought up. are you ****ing serious. that was establish on one of the first pages of this thread. yes, you can rule out AK, and probably AQ, but AJ is borderline. You can also rule out weaker aces with the exception of maybe a10 and a suited a9So on the flop you have his range as bluffs, AJ, sets, two pair, and draws. And yes, you have to include hands like KQ, KQss, QJss, J10ss, etc. That's a really ****ing wide range and c/ring against that range puts you in the shittiest spot. Open folding would make more sense in that spot then c/r.On the turn once he bets again, and bets that big, his range becomes very limited because he's never betting that big with a bluff. So in the end it becomes more of a math problem which is really ****ing easy to do. No one said we're folding to every bet on the turn. But unless the math says otherwise, folding to this kind of bet on the turn may be best.You seriously have reading comprehension issues.I don't even remember the ****ing hand anymore
Ahh, donk, you are truly a marvel . Once again you have made an unsubstantiated claim "the big ace argument not being brought up. are you ****ing serious. that was establish on one of the first pages of this thread" Now I'm not prepared to just say you are wrong, but I don't remember. Rather than just throwing something out there and requiring us all to just believe you...I guess because you're so experienced and successful... why don't you point out exactly which page/posts brought up the idea that we don't have to worry about the villain having a big Ace here.Now, if that argument WAS made, I would pose a single question. Our opponent FLATTED the button with 99. I don't know what the chip stacks were in the blinds.. maybe our opponent thought he was inducing a raise from one of them, or whatever. But clearly, by flatting the preflop raise, he was also inviting going to the flop with as manny as 3 other players. He did this with 99. Why should we assume that he wouldn't have done the same with any other hand, particular ones as precarious as AJ/AQ... even AK.You said: "So on the flop you have his range as bluffs, AJ, sets, two pair, and draws. And yes, you have to include hands like KQ, KQss, QJss, J10ss, etc. That's a really ****ing wide range and c/ring against that range puts you in the shittiest spot. Open folding would make more sense in that spot then c/r."Why does c/r a wide range put you in a shitty spot? Do you see that in order to be convincing you can't just throw ideas out there... you have to defend them with some sort of evidence and logic.You said: "On the turn once he bets again, and bets that big, his range becomes very limited because he's never betting that big with a bluff. So in the end it becomes more of a math problem which is really ****ing easy to do. No one said we're folding to every bet on the turn. But unless the math says otherwise, folding to this kind of bet on the turn may be best."This is an interesting thing you have put forth here. You say, after we c/c, that our oponent is NEVER betting that big (I assume you are referring to the 12K he actually did bet) as a bluff. I suppose maybe one of you has finally decided to tackle the "bet-size-reading" claim you have been constantly been making. So, had he bet more, say 15K, or gone all in, or whatever, does that mean he is more likely to be bluffing... in other words, is there some % chance he is bluffing which is greater than NEVER if he had bet more? Or had he bet less... again is he MORE likely to be bluffing.. since of course, he is NEVER bluffing with a 12K bet? It would seem to me, that this bet-size reading skill which you and others have touted is simply the idea that our opponent would not bet the turn at all on a bluff. Maybe you have eliminated this as a possibility. I simply cannot. Players I play against regularly do not go around betting a wide range on the flop and then always clamming up on the turn in the face of their opponent slow playing a coordinated board such as this, whether its this point in the tournmanet or any other.And, by the way, the only reason this became a "math" problem, is because a diamond hit. There was pretty much no other card that could have hit the turn where this would have become a math problem. So the justification for you tossing 4K into the pot on a pre-flop call is that maybe one of 10 cards could hit the turn and then maybe our opponent will be so kind as to give us odds to make a call which is mathematically correct from a pot-size standpoint, but still unlikley to hit? And, in the end, you're saying we're calling this bet (6K, according to irishguy), because it makes mathematical sense. How is this entire line of thinking, where you are putting in a total of 12K in order to get to the river so superior to my line of thinking where you are putting in 10K to get to the river?You said: "You seriously have reading comprehension issues."How so? I respond to every one of your and other's posts by going point by point. You guys rarely address anything I say directly. Which pattern would be more indicative of reading comprehension issues?You said: "I don't even remember the ****ing hand anymore"Its on page one if you need to refresh your memory.
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Akahshssnksnsodnananao,I'm gonna use "logic" and not answer any of your lol questions. GL.
I agree Jordon, it is very logical to presume that people who have nothing to offer will choose not to offer anything.
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Our opponent FLATTED the button with 99. I don't know what the chip stacks were in the blinds..You said: "I don't even remember the ****ing hand anymore"Its on page one if you need to refresh your memory.
troll gonna troll.
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These sought of optimal plays, fly over the head of your average poster on these sought of forums, so the best line to take, is none at all.
I agree that calling the flop is very much a close your eyes and hope for the best strategy. This sort of play certainly has its benefits if you are someone who doesn't want to do any thinking or are willing to make a crucial mistakes a fairly large percentage of the time. And it also has its advocates... particularly on this board.
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FYP
Gallo.. you haven't been "in" since your first post. Given the nature of that post (#231) , I had high hopes that you weren't another one of these clowns. I spent some time trying to respect your appearance here by giving a serious response, and you have repayed me by ignoring my response and joining in with the circus. You may be more "seasoned" for lack of a better word than some of the others posting here.. but it doesn't appear you have benefitted from the lessons those years have offered.
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I agree Jordon, it is very logical to presume that people who have nothing to offer will choose not to offer anything.
troll gonna troll.
Correction, you have nonsensical palindromic sentence fragments to offer, so at least you have that going for you.
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