Tournament Hand

[donk4life 34]

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

May be the greatest sentence of all time.edit: so you're saying on that board you want to fold out kq? qj? j10? j9? kj?

[TrueAce13 18]

who needs value?! we get protection!

[irishguy 14]

I don't mind folding out hands we beat becasue.. we may not be beating them by the river and are not likely to act aggressively on future streets to prevent that. What is wrong with winning a small pot with a mediocre hand? Isn't that the goal in small-ball?Yes, we are putting more money in.. but very little (only 4K more). Compare that you calling 6K on the turn to try and catch your flush. Or compare that to the ~20K or so our hero put in by making a mistake. My argument all along is the 4K extra is viritually irrelevant from a chip stack size point of view and is worth it because it makes it more likely we will win the hand. I gotta say you guys keep ignoring the point I make about the worthiness of the original 4K call in you c/c play. Unless we catch a miriacle 10 on the turn (still could be bad), or our opponent is indeed really weak.passive, I see amost no chance for us winning this hand by calling the flop. Our flat on the flop just gives them too many opportunities to bet, either for value, or as a bluff, or as a semi-bluff on the turn, and we have agreed that we are folding to most bets or making a pretty risky call. Calling with little hope of improving and with the full intention of folding to a bet from a player in position doesn't seem like a +EV play to me.

So if you know with 100% certainty villain has an underpair your raising here cus he might catch up? You keep ignoring the fact that we view the likelihood of villain bluffing/semi bluffing to be little to none considering how much of his stack is at risk. Youve agreed that villain is likely betting 100% of their range when checked to on the flop but don't think we ever win the hand by just calling so you think villains betting 100% of their range on the turn..:we just don't agree with thatMost worse aces, nines, mid pairs give up after the flop rather then commit their stack (ie: bluff)-hands which would've folded to your c rMost draws:check behind on the turn rather then commit their stack here when it looks as tho we're interested in the hand (ie: bluff/ semi bluff)

[akashenk 12]

May be the greatest sentence of all time.edit: so you're saying on that board you want to fold out kq? qj? j10? j9? kj?

If you don't understand the value of winning a small pot in a marginal situation sooner rather than later then you clearly have little understanding of poker in genreal, and tournament poker specifically (particularly with stacks this short). I'm giong to assume you do have some understanding and are just arguing this crazy point for the sake of argument.If I am understanding your argument...you don't want to risk folding out garbage hands like this becauseA) You are counting on the the small chance that they may catch a little something on future streets, but not too much, of course, orB) If they do already have middle pair, or if they do catch middle pair, they will be willing to put more chips into the pot, orC) they are going to bluff AND we are going to be able to call with our mediocre hand.These things have to have a high degree of likelihood if you believe getting them to fold a hand like you mentioned is bad for us. I don't think any of these things are at all likely.

[akashenk 12]

who needs value?! we get protection!

I gotta repeat, you guys must play against a lot of really bad players if you think there's any chance you will get value from someone you are ahead of in this flop.

[donk4life 34]

I'm not sayin anything will happen with 100% certainty. But there's a better chance they do happen (which we want) if we don't check/raise. C/r eliminates all possibilities of extracting value from marginal hands and only guarantees us of getting called by something better, which puts us in a very tough spot.

[akashenk 12]

irishguy,You say" c r gets us to the river more:1) giving us the chance to win vs draws that don't get there-this is hugely -ev considering we've priced the draws in..2:) giving us the chance to catch up if we are behind-so we raise with our thought process being well if he calls we can go runner runner but then you've stated those times that we do catch up that villain wont put another chip in he pot..."1) this statement is completly at odds with your recommended play. So giving the opponent infinite odds to draw by us caling the flop with the intention of giving him infinite odds on the turn is somehow the correct play agains draws?2) This is like the fourth time you have claimed that I said our oponent will not put another dime in the pot. I have never said this. What I have said is we are not going to put another dime in the pot unless we have some sort of tremendous read on the river, or if we catch a great card on the river. Our opponent may or not put more money in on the river, dependingon what he has. I do not think they will bluff or thin value bet the river, but they certainly may call. I mean, if we hit that diamond and it didn't pair the board you don't think the opopnent would call (or even shove) with the hand he had. I even think Aj/AQ might call the river to a reasonable bet because our bet on the river won't look quite as strong with that missed club flush draw as a possibility.you said "The whole notion that we are mediocre if we are strong we could shove all in to "protect our hand/fold out draws" is just so flawed...we DON'T WANT to fold out draws. In fact if we think that a large part of villains shoving range is combo draws, flush draws, straight draws we should only be c r with the intent of snapping of the shove...again that crazy thing called math"First off, what you are discussing here is a hypothetical (ie we are stong on the flop), so I don't want to get it confused with what was really going on in this hand. However, assuming the hypothetical, here is just a fundamental disagreement in tournament strategy between us. Unless the payout structure is really flat so finishing position doesn't matter at this point, I am not looking to get into a situation where I am flipping coins or even have marginal advantage like 60/40. If I flop a strong hand here (likely AK minimum), I do not want a draw to call and have to fade the 35-40% they will catch, and I want to make it a mathematical mistake for them to try and do so. Maybe the math says thats a good spot for me, when they make that mistake, but winning in this mathematical scenario and doubling up is not going to guarantee I move up significantly in the payout structure. But losing is going to guarantee I don't. The potential outcomes are not equivalent, so you cannot weigh them equally. Now, if you're heads up, then that is a different matter.

[TrueAce13 18]

amazing mtt strategy itt

[irishguy 14]

irishguy,You say" c r gets us to the river more:1) giving us the chance to win vs draws that don't get there-this is hugely -ev considering we've priced the draws in..2:) giving us the chance to catch up if we are behind-so we raise with our thought process being well if he calls we can go runner runner but then you've stated those times that we do catch up that villain wont put another chip in he pot..."1) this statement is completly at odds with your recommended play. So giving the opponent infinite odds to draw by us caling the flop with the intention of giving him infine odds on the turn is somehow the correect play agains draws?2) This is like the fourth time you have claimed that I said our oponent will not put another dime in the pot. I have never said this. What I have said is we are not going to put another dime in the pot unless we have some sort of tremendous read on the river, or if we catch a great card on the river. Our opponent may or not put more money in on the river, dependingon what he has. I do not think they will bluff or thin value bet the river, but they certainly may call. I mean, if we hit that diamond and it didn't pair the board you don't think the opopnent would call (or even shove) with the hand he had. I even think Aj/AQ might call the river to a reasonable bet because our bet on the river won't look quite as strong with that missed club flush draw as a possibility.you said "The whole notion that we are mediocre if we are strong we could shove all in to "protect our hand/fold out draws" is just so flawed...we DON'T WANT to fold out draws. In fact if we think that a large part of villains shoving range is combo draws, flush draws, straight draws we should only be c r with the intent of snapping of the shove...again that crazy thing called math"First off, what you are discussing here is a hypothetical (ie we are stong on the flop), so I don't want to get it confused with what was really going on in this hand. However, assuming the hypothetical, here is just a fundamental disagreement in tournament strategy between us. Unless the payout structure is really flat so finishing position doesn't matter at this point, I am not looking to get into a situation where I am flipping coins or even have marginal advantage like 60/40. If I flop a strong hand here (likely AK minimum), I do not want a draw to call and have to fade the 35-40% they will catch, and I want to make it a mathematical mistake for them to try and do so. Maybe the math says thats a good spot for me, when they make that mistake, but winning in this mathematical scenario and doubling up is not going to guarantee I move up significantly in the payout structure. But losing is going to guarantee I don't. The potential outcomes are not equivalent, so you cannot weigh them equally. Now, if you're heads up, then that is a different matter.

IT IS NOT giving infinite odds when a draw is merely a portion of villains range- we don't look at the fop and go 'there's two of a suit I must be bet to protect" just like we don't look at the flop and " I must bet to protect cus if he's got mid pair/underpair I'm giving him infinite odds by checking"I mean this is really really basic-we check he bets a 100% of his range, sets, two pairs, draws, mid pairs, under pairs, air etc etc etc our thinking is on the turn he gives up a large chunk of that range, checks behind draws a million times more then he bets them and only bets the part if his range that has us beat...As for the Ak example you want a draw to fold cus your not comfortable getting your stack in as a 60% fav when your getting 2 to 1 odds...wow...just wow

[akashenk 12]

I'm not sayin anything will happen with 100% certainty. But there's a better chance they do happen (which we want) if we don't check/raise. C/r eliminates all possibilities of extracting value from marginal hands and only guarantees us of getting called by something better, which puts us in a very tough spot.

I agree completely with what you say here other than there is a better chance of good things happening for us if we c/c as opposed to c/r.I think the position in the tournament pretty much eliminates any chance of us extracting any more value from worse hand after the flop unlessA) we are wiling to risk our tournament lives by leading the turn orB) we believe our opponent is capable of bluffing the river after a missed draw and we are good (or dumb) enough to call him with our mediocre hand.

[akashenk 12]

IT IS NOT giving infinite odds when a draw is merely a portion of villains range- we don't look at the fop and go 'there's two of a suit I must be bet to protect" just like we don't look at the flop and " I must bet to protect cus if he's got mid pair/underpair I'm giving him infinite odds by checking"I mean this is really really basic-we check he bets a 100% of his range, sets, two pairs, draws, mid pairs, under pairs, air etc etc etc our thinking is on the turn he gives up a large chunk of that range, checks behind draws a million times more then he bets them and only bets the part if his range that has us beat...As for the Ak example you want a draw to fold cus your not comfortable getting your stack in as a 60% fav when your getting 2 to 1 odds...wow...just wow

I analyze the draw circumstance because that is what you brought up. Of course there are other things he can have besides a draw. The whole point of this segment of the debate is to discuss the ramifications of him having a draw. Its not to say this play or that is the right play because of how it does against a draw and a draw only.As for your other comments.. first of all, you are never getting 2-1 odds. As someone who is so focused on the math, you should know that. You are either betting or calling for all your chips in order to win an approximately same amount of chips. That's closer to 1-1. BUT, even if it were 2-1, it still doesn't necessarily make sense. Here's an analogy.. Let's say I offered you $2Million on a 60% gamble if you put up $1MIllion. Would you take that bet? I think most peope, unless they are quite wealthy, would not. And even if they were, we could come up with stakes that woulld make it less than appealing, despite the math being in their favor.Now, back to the poker world, there are two issues:1) Risk of ruin. You have to consider the consequences of being unlucky in this single event. Its not enough to just calculate the math and figure out if we have some small mathematical advantage. You win 0% of tournamnets you bust out of in this situatoin. You win X% of tournaments you don't. X > 0. Always. When one of the alternatives is busting out, you can't just look at the straight math unless you're not interested doing well in tournaments2) Even if you ignore the risk or ruin, you also have to consder the consequences of being wrong. What you are advocating here is ASSUMING we are 60/40 favorite.. which is basically a slight favorite. There are also plenty of hands that have us crushed. When you factor these into the odds of them catching their draw, it really makes risking all of our chips against our opponent here a coin flip situation. Like I mentioned numerous times earlier, I'm not looking to flip for my tournmanet life in this situaiton unless the payout structure dictates it doesn't matter. Maybe you prefer to flip coins for your tournament life. Again, this may be a difference of philosophy.

[irishguy 14]

I really don't think this discussion can go any further after this...The pot in this hand after we c r is 19000 we have 19400 if villain shoves it will cost us 19400 to get 38400 soooo like 1.98 to 1....so we have to win roughly a third of the time: calculate vs his range and decide..again basicYour million dollar example is unrealistic because the factor of money but given odds I don't even need to be a 60/40 if someone wants to flip a coin with me and everytime it's tails I lose 100 but everytime it's heads I win 200 I'm flipping forever...Edit: the draw factor only comes up because it's such a large portion of what will call your min c r ( given the odds) while we've all considered based on the turn bet villains unlikely to be on a draw...different distinctions

[akashenk 12]

I really don't think this discussion can go any further after this...The pot in this hand after we c r is 19000 we have 19400 if villain shoves it will cost us 19400 to get 38400 soooo like 1.98 to 1....so we have to win roughly a third of the time: calculate vs his range and decide..again basicYour million dollar example is unrealistic because the factor of money but given odds I don't even need to be a 60/40 if someone wants to flip a coin with me and everytime it's tails I lose 100 but everytime it's heads I win 200 I'm flipping forever...Edit: the draw factor only comes up because it's such a large portion of what will call your min c r ( given the odds) while we've all considered based on the turn bet villains unlikely to be on a draw...different distinctions

I thought the 2-1 discussinon was the debate over whether playing for stacks on the flop agains a draw made sense. There its 1-1, more or less. I don't know where playing the turn for stacks came into it, but ok, on the turn you get 2-1, and if our opponent was on a draw, you're more than 60/40 to win in that situation.. more like 84/16 or 82/18.As for my example, you can't ignore the factor of money, just like in a tournament poker hand, you can't ignore the risk of ruin, or the possible outcome of busting. If what you are saying is, in my example, you would ignore the factor of money, then I must say I hope no one depends on you financially and I hope you have a solid financial support system in place when you inevitably go bust.As for the draw factor, I'm not sure what percentage of the time he will have a hand like this. The only pre-flop hand that really makes sense is something like KQc, but I suppose other lesser holdings are possible, including bizzare gap connectors that would lead to straight draws. I am prepared to agree that we definitely need to consider him having a draw, but like I said, one of my primary concerns by playing our hand beyond the flop in any way is that we aren't likely to get our opponent off his draw before the river, and I'm not necessarily looking to play for my whole stack in a coin flip situation.

[Mercury69 3]

I am standing on a beach, killing an Arab. - Meurseault

[irishguy 14]

I thought the 2-1 discussinon was the debate over whether playing for stacks on the flop agains a draw made sense. There its 1-1, more or less. I don't know where playing the turn for stacks came into it, but ok, on the turn you get 2-1, and if our opponent was on a draw, you're more than 60/40 to win in that situation.. more like 84/16 or 82/18.As for my example, you can't ignore the factor of money, just like in a tournament poker hand, you can't ignore the risk of ruin, or the possible outcome of busting. If what you are saying is, in my example, you would ignore the factor of money, then I must say I hope no one depends on you financially and I hope you have a solid financial support system in place when you inevitably go bust.As for the draw factor, I'm not sure what percentage of the time he will have a hand like this. The only pre-flop hand that really makes sense is something like KQc, but I suppose other lesser holdings are possible, including bizzare gap connectors that would lead to straight draws. I am prepared to agree that we definitely need to consider him having a draw, but like I said, one of my primary concerns by playing our hand beyond the flop in any way is that we aren't likely to get our opponent off his draw before the river, and I'm not necessarily looking to play for my whole stack in a coin flip situation.

Thats not about the turn that's about the flop-him shoving over our c r-if we think he's likely to be shoving a draw/ coin flipping we are getting far more the 1:1 -that dead money that's in the pot doesn't just evaporate. If you play within a bankroll risk of ruin becomes much less of a concern..your arguing that our tournament chips are so important but we should just toss an extra 15% of our chips in on the flop to 'see where we're at' And once again in the event our villain does have a draw our objective isn't to get him off his hand it's just to not make it profitable for him to call with it...

[akashenk 12]

irishguy,regarding the draw all-lin, I think you're trying to make an argument for calling all in on the flop when our opponent has a draw (or perhaps going all in in our c/r). I wouldn't necessarily do that for all the reasons I have stipulated previously, but if you have such a tremendous read on him and KNOW he's on the draw, then the math does favor you from an odds standpoint.as far as your bankroll comment, this does bring up an interesting and entirely different subject which we may or may not want to get into. Obviously, we would hope that no one is playing a single tournament with their rent money. That would likely be so much worse that doing just about anything else with that money, including putting it all on a hand of blackjack, or a spin of the roulette wheel. And yes, the idea that you should make fundamentally correct plays, from a mathematical standpoint is no different whether you are talking about a tournament or cash. However, you have to acknowledge that there are different aspects of tournament play that make it a different game, and the risk of ruin (within the confines of a tournament) comes, or should come into play in every decision we make. If this weren’t the case, then no one would play any differently in the early stages of a tournament, versus the minefield portion, versus the bubble, versus the final table, versus heads up, etc.. I would hope you agree that there are differences in strategy during these different times. And so, a particular line of play which would be optimum or preferred in cash may not be so in a tournament. And a particular line of play which may be optimum or preferred in the early part of a tournament, may not be so at some later stage.So, in this particular example, I am not looking to flip coins for my tournament life, even if busting out isn’t going to put a big dent in my bankroll. One of the important concepts in money management is ROI on the time you invest. Who wants to invest hours or days playing a poker tournament and then flip a coin to see if they will continue... particularly when they could miss out on much better situations, or much more money later on. Now, of course if you are in the money and due to the payout structure, or your relative chip-stack, there isn’t much difference between busting now, or in 10 spots, or whatever, then sure, flip away and hope to win those flips.I think that we are getting into an area where the info we have been provided in the hand doesn’t really tell us which way we should go, so I am choosing to assume we should play the hand as conservatively as possible, while still giving us a chance to win. If all I cared about were conservation, then c/f is definitely the way to go. There’s no reason to risk even a dime more in such a marginal situation. However, the gambler in me thinks we should try to win the hand, and I think the c/r makes that more likely over the c/c. I’m willing to risk that extra 4K because I believe being left with 15BB post c/r and losing or us being folded out is not much different than being left with 19BB after c/c and losing or being folded out. We’ve already discussed situations where you would be willing to risk an additional 6K by calling the turn on a draw. That hardly seems like a better situation to my risking an additional 4K. And, I think you too quickly dismiss the fact that we could be risking A LOT more if we happen to make a mistake in a fairly difficult spot. What if our opponent shoves the turn after we check? I know you think you’ll easily fold here, but maybe you think about it and you decide that he can easily be semi-bluffing with some monster draw. The math says call and you do... and whoops, you’re dominated by a whole host of hands, and you’re the one walking out the door. I’m all for relying on skill to make good plays, but there are points where making a certain play makes it virtually impossible for us to make a mistake, and I think the c/r presents such an opportunity.And, since you have brought up the river several times, what happens if, after c/c the flop and check/check on the turn, we blank out on the river? I think if we check here, it definitely brings the bluff back in to play for our opponent who might have missed his draw, or maybe has a weak hand that needs to be protected. He sees a relatively small pot, he sees we aren’t really invested in it, and he sees we have checked three streets with all sorts of draws out there. Why wouldn’t he take a stab here? Now, I admit that, in the c/r scenario, if we blank the river, some of this still comes into play. I just think we have REALLY reduced the chance that he bluffs here because we have shown at least some strength during the hand and, more importantly, we have shown that we may be committed to the pot. Either way, this particular scenario would lead to a tough spot for us. The c/r on the flop certainly doesn’t guarantee we win the hand. But it does help us get to the river cheaper in situations where we need to catch up and that is what I'm looking to do.

[akashenk 12]

Just as a general comment to everyone.. a lot of you are bringing up the fact that we may be losing value by causing hands we are ahead to fold, when those hands may bluff later streets. I gotta say, I don't get this way of thinking in this situation at all. If our opponent bluffs at any point after this flop, we lose. Its that simple, unless we have a TREMENDOUS read. The question of whether we can make a hero call doesn't really have any place here since that would depend entirely on information we don't have in this thread. So, in my mind, we will almost never pick off a bluff in this situation... not because our opponent can't bluff, but because we can't call.

[HighwayStar 8]

Hi guys,New to tournament poker, and need your views on a hand that i felt I really misplayed. Have no idea how to copy paste from HH so here it goes.No stats avaliable cause I dont have PT or HM on this computer yet, all five players are pretty tight and straightforward and I have been picking up pots fairly easy last 30 min or so.Blinds: 600 - 1200Hero/donk/me: 30KButton: Just has me covered6-max table,We are in the money. Im on cutoff and its folded to me. AdTdHero: 2600Button: CallSB/BB: FoldsFlop: Ac 9d 7cHero: Check (Dont want to bet/call here, but check feels wrong for some reason)Button: Bet 4K into 7KMe: callTurn: Ac 9d 7c 6dHero: checkButton: bet 12KNow what?

I'd start off by c/r the flop and go from there.

[akashenk 12]

I'd start off by c/r the flop and go from there.

Do we have a believer? Or am I hallucinating?

[TrueAce13 18]

oh ffs

[HighwayStar 8]

Do we have a believer? Or am I hallucinating?

You are hallucinating.It's completely pointless to have a c/r range in this spot at all. With some crazy dynamics against a lagtard maybe, but in a vacuum/against anyone sane it's unneccessary. Any hands you should have on this board should all work fairly well in c/c, c/f, b/f and b/c ranges. If you really wanna incoorporate it, it's best to use a range of strong draws (flush draw or better) and strong but potentially vulnerable hands - A7/A9 (97? - almost certainly better to bet this). I think vs most you're gonna be better off doing something else with these hands but c/r/c is potentially ok. AT is a really bad hand to do it with. It's just gonna have the opposite effect to what is profitable in any way. You're going to fold out bluffs and give better hands more money. There are very few hands it's effective against.I just skipread 10 pages of arguments on this so I'm not gonna argue any more and just align myself with 90% of the people in this thread.Regarding the actual hand that's a really awkward turn spot, I'd probably shove it in unhappily. I don't think you can quite call or fold. The flop c/c is ok. Betting is fine too.

[donk4life 34]

look another ****ing nut hugger

[irishguy 14]

Just as a general comment to everyone.. a lot of you are bringing up the fact that we may be losing value by causing hands we are ahead to fold, when those hands may bluff later streets. I gotta say, I don't get this way of thinking in this situation at all. If our opponent bluffs at any point after this flop, we lose. Its that simple, unless we have a TREMENDOUS read. The question of whether we can make a hero call doesn't really have any place here since that would depend entirely on information we don't have in this thread. So, in my mind, we will almost never pick off a bluff in this situation... not because our opponent can't bluff, but because we can't call.

The draw talk is there because you've constantly stated he's shoving on the c r with two pairs, sets, combo draws and some draws etc and saying you didn't want to be flipping for stacks-if we think it's flipping we should be calling our shove with the price..If it goes c c on the turn- we re evaluate river bet sizing etc..we've established in all likelihood that after flop goes c c he bets turn with hands that beat us more often then not checking behind draws, mid pairs, underpairs etc sonwhen he checks behind on the turn and draws don't get there I'd likely be alright with a call as he may bluff or value bet a worse hand. You keep assigning a completely different thought mentality for villain in our line then yours which doesn't seem to correlate What do you think villain puts you on when you c r? You say your not putting another chip on unimproved so what does villain put you on when you've checked turn and river? You say if our turn views c c we get bluffed off on the river but same villain wouldn't on your river.In our line we narrow villains range by streetFlop: bets 100% of his rangeTurn: if he bets like he did-not likely a bluff/draw most likely a made hand that's ahead of usTurn: if he checks behind-he doesn't likely have a big hand that beats us-two pair hands, sets would likely bet here Your line:Flop: he shoves two pairs, sets, combo draws, some reg draws, some aces that beat us.He calls some draws, some aces that beat us He folds everything elseTurn: you check no matter whatHe checks no matter what...River we're just assuming he doesn't put chips in unimproved

[akashenk 12]

The draw talk is there because you've constantly stated he's shoving on the c r with two pairs, sets, combo draws and some draws etc and saying you didn't want to be flipping for stacks-if we think it's flipping we should be calling our shove with the price..If it goes c c on the turn- we re evaluate river bet sizing etc..we've established in all likelihood that after flop goes c c he bets turn with hands that beat us more often then not checking behind draws, mid pairs, underpairs etc sonwhen he checks behind on the turn and draws don't get there I'd likely be alright with a call as he may bluff or value bet a worse hand.You keep assigning a completely different thought mentality for villain in our line then yours which doesn't seem to correlateWhat do you think villain puts you on when you c r? You say your not putting another chip on unimproved so what does villain put you on when you've checked turn and river? You say if our turn views c c we get bluffed off on the river but same villain wouldn't on your river.In our line we narrow villains range by streetFlop: bets 100% of his rangeTurn: if he bets like he did-not likely a bluff/draw most likely a made hand that's ahead of usTurn: if he checks behind-he doesn't likely have a big hand that beats us-two pair hands, sets would likely bet hereYour line:Flop: he shoves two pairs, sets, combo draws, some reg draws, some aces that beat us.He calls some draws, some aces that beat usHe folds everything elseTurn: you check no matter whatHe checks no matter what...River we're just assuming he doesn't put chips in unimproved

Irish Guy: "The draw talk is there because you've constantly stated he's shoving on the c r with two pairs, sets, combo draws and some draws etc and saying you didn't want to be flipping for stacks-if we think it's flipping we should be calling our shove with the price.."I disagree. I'm not looking to flip for my tournament life for that price. If I were, I would simply have shoved pre-flop and at least gotten some fold-equity. If you're looking to flip, then be my guest.as for the rest, our debate has really come down to a simple fact. You believe the villain will act on the turn in the exact same manner whether we c/r or c/c, which makes the raise pointless. I believe the villain will not. I can tell you if I were the villain, I'd be wiling to bet just about my whole range on that turn if you c/c/c, if only to try and protect a marginal hand or get more value on a semi-bluff. You have said you are folding to a reasonable turn bet. Great. You lose. Thanks for handing over 25% of your stack without a fight.

[akashenk 12]

You are hallucinating.It's completely pointless to have a c/r range in this spot at all. With some crazy dynamics against a lagtard maybe, but in a vacuum/against anyone sane it's unneccessary. Any hands you should have on this board should all work fairly well in c/c, c/f, b/f and b/c ranges. If you really wanna incoorporate it, it's best to use a range of strong draws (flush draw or better) and strong but potentially vulnerable hands - A7/A9 (97? - almost certainly better to bet this). I think vs most you're gonna be better off doing something else with these hands but c/r/c is potentially ok. AT is a really bad hand to do it with. It's just gonna have the opposite effect to what is profitable in any way. You're going to fold out bluffs and give better hands more money. There are very few hands it's effective against.I just skipread 10 pages of arguments on this so I'm not gonna argue any more and just align myself with 90% of the people in this thread.Regarding the actual hand that's a really awkward turn spot, I'd probably shove it in unhappily. I don't think you can quite call or fold. The flop c/c is ok. Betting is fine too.

Thanks for the input highwaystar, but I'm finding your post difficult to figure out. Is the c/r "pointless" or "unecessary" as you said in your first sentence, or is it "potentially ok" as you said in your fifth sentence. I don't think it can be both.And your last statement pretty much summarises the difficulty in this hand.. whatever you do in response to the villain bet on the turn.. you are going to be unhappy. If you fold you are unhappy because you very well could be folding the best hand and unless they show, you will wonder. If you call and/or shove you are unhappy because you could very well be way behind, even with the diamond, and will likely be walking out the door in short order. The fact that we are likely to face all of this unhappiness no matter what on the turn leads me to believe that c/f probably is the way to go, if we intend to check the flop. But I think c/r gets us away from a bunch of this unhapiness as well. If we end up folding before the river, at least we know we definetly folded the worst hand. And our opponent will be more likely to let us get to the river for free, even if they are ahead... which is a good result for us. That should make us happy, especially if a diamond hits. And all of this chance for hapiness only costs us 4K more than y'all seem perfectly willing to put in. That seems like a small price to pay for happiness.Of course, trying to find an optimal line for the hand overall is a completely different comversation which isn't tied to whether c/c or c/r is a better option once we have checked. I think all-in pre (or fold) is better than standard raise, but once that is done, i would rank my flop play preference as:1) B/F2) C/F (If I'm not that into into it)3) C/R (If I am)4) C/C (If I really just want to give my opponent 4K and hope that he decides to shut it down on the turn out of the kindness of his heart)