Tournament Hand

[TrueAce13 18]

Lol I feel that Donk doesn't mind that I speak for him as well in this situation

[akashenk 12]

Lol I feel that Donk doesn't mind that I speak for him as well in this situation

Whether he minds or not isn't really the point. Its just creepy and it makes it look like you need a binky. My read here is you lack the courage of your convictions, so you sprinkle in references to other posters in a veiled attempt to lend their legitimacy to your posts. Now maybe such a strategy would work with long time viewers of these forums, as perhaps Donk has built up some credibility, which you clearly lack. However, it is less likely to work with a newbie poster such as myself because I have relatively little reason to believe donk knows what he is talking about any more than you. Of course, this thread leads me more in that direction, but I'm not quite there yet.Anyhow, put your big boy pants on and stand for yourself.

[TrueAce13 18]

Lol you are a straight troll. None of your strategy has any substance bc everything you have said contradicts itself from other statements you have made. I feel that my results/history w this forum gives me a lot of credibility. Donk and I are good friends. We have spoke about this hand outside the forum trying to figure out what the best play is. You never have opened your mind up to any other opinion and when you read something, you stay closed minded and keep arguing your point. While it is nice to be passionate about your opinion, sometimes you should listen to players that have a lot of experience. As Donk says, you keep thinking this hand is going to play out exactly how you imagine it, which is completely flawed. But whatever, keep trolling away. You're doing a great job, but you will never get better at poker by having the mindset that you so. Hopefully you will change it, but if not, you will continue to make the poker community profitable.

[donk4life 34]

Re donk: First off, at no point have I claimed the check/call on the flop was a "bad play", at least to my knowledge. I just think the check raise is better. And obviously, check/fold the turn is probably the best move. I'll get to the remaining stack size in a bit in response to answer20’s post. But first, to your points. I am not assuming anything when I c/r the flop as far as what the villain will do. I think it is fairly likely that the villain bet the flop pretty weak, but of course, there is the chance he is strong. The purpose of the c/r is to rule out that he is really strong, because if he were, he would in all likelihood shove over our c/r here. Result.. we get away from a bad spot losing 8K. Now, if he calls, here’s what happens. First off, I disagree with your assertion that a check on the turn would likely elicit another bet from AJ/AQ. If the villain were a maniac, then all bets are off and he could do anything. But all evidence suggests he is a straightforward player. Our c/r is going to make him think we are committed to the pot. There is very little chance he will bluff here. There is very little chance he will value bet anything less than A/K since we could have flopped lots of hands that have him beat and will call with big draws as well. There’s just no reason for him to bet a marginal hand here and doing so is a very risky play. So I think the c/r on the flop induces a ck/ck on the turn a large percentage of the time. This would have been even more the case if a club hit the turn because now he has to worry about us either already having a flush, or having even more outs on the river with a big club in our hand. So, as it stood, my feeling is, the villain will only bet when he is quite strong. So it just comes down to deciding whether chasing our flush draw is worth it. For 12K or whatever the villain is likely to bet here, I don’t think it is.I think the mistake, for lack of a better word, in your analysis, is you are playing this hand as if it is earlier in the tournament and we have lots of chips to play around with. In those situations, it’s alright (or at least more alright) to have a “let’s call and see what happens next” strategy. You can play small ball. You can go into turns and rivers not quite sure where you’re at because the risk of ruin, or consequences of you being wrong or unlucky are relatively small. In this situation, however, you can’t afford to allow the villain to control the pot and the action. There’s just too many ways they can cause you to lose a hand you might have won, or cause you to make a mistake which are both devastating results at this point in the tournament. The c/r obviously isn’t pure small ball and pot control, but I think it does clarify your opponents holdings to a great degree and it also is more likely to keep the pot small on the turn.Now, of course, the way this hand played out is a good example of why A10 suited is a hard hand to play in any situation, but with stacks this short especially. By putting in a standard pre-flop raise in an attempt to steal with this hand, you’re really hoping for a flushy flop. When you don’t get one, all sorts of bad things can happen. There’s a case to be made that a bigger raise, even perhaps an All-in pre-flop would have been better. Riskier, certainly, but less prone to mistakes after the flop J. In this case, you actually wouldn’t mind seeing 99 across the table… until the flop that is.

Do you really not see how incredibly flawed the bolded statement is? You are taking top pair, check/raising it, then folding it to a shove. Do you really not see how ****ing stupid that is? You are losing more by c/ring and folding to a jam then check/calling and folding to a turn bet. How do you not ****ing see that? We gain the exact amoutn of information by check/calling and check/deciding on the turn that we do by check/raising. And if you can't see that after the dozens of posts that people have made in this thread then there really is no ****ing point in arguing it anymore.Your entire post is still based off assumptions. You're assuming AJ, AQ will check it down, which you can't rule out. You're assuming that a club won't fall on the turn, shit, you're even assuming he won't flat you with sets in this spot. You are taking this hand and examining from the way you want it to play out.And trueace can speak for me whenever he wants. Him and I share a lot of the same thoughts but we aren't so ****ing obstinate to learn different points of view. You however, clearly do not see any flaw in your logic, so there's no point in arguing it anymore.

[akashenk 12]

I am quite open to seeing flaws in my logic, if those flaws are illuminated. That hasn't really occurred. All you have done is present a case for why check/call is not a horrible play. That's fine. You haven't put any sort of dent into my argument that check/raise has benefits. You seem to be operating on the basis that anything is possible... that our opponent is capable of making any play under the sun, so the best course of action is the most timid one. That's all well and good, but if anything is possible, then there's really no reason to discuss strategy. On the contrary, I happen to think that players will often act rationally, particularly if they are the solid/straightforward variety described in this thread. Of course, they may make mistakes, but it is hard enough trying to figure out what they're up to when they know what they are doing, never mind trying to figure out what they're up to when they don't.I presented a case for why c/r the flop will provide tangible benefits:1) it introduces fold equity (a small benefit, for sure, but tangible)2) it helps us define our opponents range. You say they are capable of flatting a made hand to our c/r. I say, perhaps, but it isn't at all likely. Any flat, IMO, basically means our opponent is either on the come or doesn't feel particularly confident in his hand at that point. This is real information which you have no chance of obtaining by just ck/call.3) it shuts down the bluff opportunity from our opponent (again, a small benefit % wise, but important IMO. Who wants to fold the best hand at this point in the tournament?)4) it makes our turn decision that much easier (because of #2/3 above)5) it vastly increases the likelihood that we will get to see the river cheaply over just ck/call. This benefit cannot be understated, particularly since we picked up a pretty important draw on the turn.Now, in all your huffing and puffing, you have failed to address any of these benefits in a way other than, we can't be 100% certain what the opponent will do, so we should proceed in as weak a manner as possible. You make it seem like folding to a flop shove and losing 8K when we know for sure we are beat is worse than folding to a turn shove and losing 4K when we have no idea what's going on. I would disagree since the former is a decisioin which was made rationally and the latter is more of a guess. There are plenty of arguments to be made why playing this hand in the first place, or playing it the way it was played pre-flop are mistakes. However, I am a firm believer in the concept that you should make the best decision/play you can when its your turn to act at various points in the hand, regardless of what occurred previously. If you just want to throw your hands up in the middle of this hand and say, go ahead villain, its yours, I have no idea what's going on, I'm not going to put up a fight, then I think check/call the flop is fine. But sometimes you have to fight for a pot. Sometimes you have to actually play poker instead of just watching cards turn over and hoping for the best. I you're looking to make a +EV play against the wide variety of marginal hands our Villain can have in this spot, then I think the c/r, or perhaps even c/fold are better plays than ck/call.P.S, again you brought up the club on the turn scenario. It seems like you didn't read my post where I said this would be a good thing for us because it would further slow down our oponent if he's marginal. I guess, in addition to thoughts (brain?), you and trueace share a lack of reading comprehension.

[donk4life 34]

I'm not going to post anymore on this hand. I, as well as others, have presented a number of reasons why a c/r is just so ****ing wrong in this spot. I'm not going to type the same shit over and over again so you can post more bullshit on why you're right. If you don't want to ****ing listen then so be it. I have presented a number of ****ing reasons on why a c/r is terrible, look at your lack of reading comprehension you doucheag.I mean, your #2-5 is just so ****ing ridiculous since it's been said time and time again on why it's so ****ing wrong.Simply put, you are check/raising this flop in hopes that he has aj/aq and will slow down on the turn. You're also somewhat hoping that you get jammed on because it makes your decision easier. It doesn't, you can not fold once you check raise this flop, how do you not ****ing understand that point. You're also hoping for a fold because that rules out bluffs in his range. YOU DO NOT WANT TO FOLD OUT HIS BLUFFS. The reason we are folding the turn is because we now have a more defined range on our opponent and have determined to be better than ours.A straight forward player is probably jamming AQ on the turn, which they very well should. You've basically conceded the hand at the point and they should be going for value. AJ and AQ probably jam the flop a decent portion of the time to. ****, even draws may jam that flop a portion of the time. So great, you get jammed on and fold the best hand, check/raise really ****ing worked there didn't it. And don't ****ing tell me that players aren't capable of it. Yes they are, even straight forward ones. Straight forward players are capable of jamming with AQ over your check/raise, even AJ to an extent. Therefore, you are check/raising in hopes that he has one ****ing hand and will slow down so you get to show down cheaply.You do ****ing realize that if a club falls on the turn and he jams you have to fold. You could have ****ing foldign the turn without having to check/raise and saved yourself chips. You also do ****ing realize that if a club falls on the turn and we didn't check/raise, an opponent without a club in his hand is probably slowing down with AQ or AJ as well. THEREFORE, YOU SAVED YOURSELF ****ING MONEY BY NOT CHECK/RAISING AND GETTING TO SHOW DOWN CHEAPLY. AND YOU CAN EASILY FOLD IF YOU'RE BET INTO. YOU ACCOMPLISH THE SAME ****ING THING BY CHECK/CALLING FOR A LOT LESS MONEY.If the entire point of this hand is to tread likely, check/raising is the worst thing you can do. You can gain the same amount of information by check/calling while keeping the pot small.AND IF WE FEEL THE GUY IS BLUFFING, THEN WE DO NOT WANT TO CHECK/RAISE AND FORCE HIM TO FOLD. IF WE CONTINUE TO THINK HE IS BLUFFING ON THE TURN THAT IS WHY WE ARE CALLING. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR HAND WE HAVE CLEARL DEFINED WE DO NOT THINK HE IS BLUFFING, THAT IS WHY WE ARE FOLDING. WE DID NOT NEED TO CHECK/RAISE AND LOSE AN ADDITIONAL 6-8K CHIPS BY CHECK/RAISING. WE HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION WE NEED TO KNOW BY CHECK/CALLING.I mean, I have laid out why a check/raise is ****ing horrible. I am done responding to you in this thread. If you don't ****ing see how ****ing stupid it is to check/raise this flop, then there's just no ****ing hope .

[TrueAce13 18]

Lets break this down...

I presented a case for why c/r the flop will provide tangible benefits:1) it introduces fold equity (a small benefit, for sure, but tangible)This is completely false. We are doing the exact opposite than introducing fold equity, we are actually giving villain the right price to draw by just clicking it back. There is 11k in the pot, giving villain another 4 to call. He needs 36% equity to call this flop bet profitable. Guess what, he has that equity

Was gonna respond to the rest of this list, but Donk kinda hit it on the head. Again. Who woulda guessed it! Really wish we still had online poker so we could get better!

[irishguy 14]

So let me get this straight: you're saying we min check raise the flop and if he calls we're beat but he doesn't love his hand and if he was really strong he'd shove over our check raise? So we fold out hands that we beat-and I'm not really sure how you figure we gain any information here-if he's got combo draw type hands he's def either shoving on us or calling a min raise. We essentially turn our hand into a bluff but then when a good card comes on the turn to continue our bluff/semi bluff you're saying check fold??

[TrueAce13 18]

yupppp #teamcoachdonk&ta13

[akashenk 12]

So let me get this straight: you're saying we min check raise the flop and if he calls we're beat but he doesn't love his hand and if he was really strong he'd shove over our check raise?So we fold out hands that we beat-and I'm not really sure how you figure we gain any information here-if he's got combo draw type hands he's def either shoving on us or calling a min raise. We essentially turn our hand into a bluff but then when a good card comes on the turn to continue our bluff/semi bluff you're saying check fold??

I'm not necessarily hoping for or expecting a fold from our check min-raise, despite donk's repetative assertions and stuck SHIFT KEY. What I am trying to accomplish is getting to the river with a marginal hand that might hold up or improve. If they happen to fold the flop, then fine. What's wrong with winning a pot right there with such a marginal hand? Who cares if the villain is dominated. Unless they are a bad player, ie we need to rely on them making mistakes in order to get value, they are not going to put any more money into this pot anyhow. Now, if they fold a marginal hand that happens to be better than ours, like AJ/AQ, then that's a tremendous result for us, though I obviously am not counting on it.The information we gain is simple (so simple I'm not sure why some of you don't see it). If we check call the flop, then we have no idea what our opoonent has when they bet the turn after we check. They could be betting for value. They could be throwing a second barrel out there given the weakness we have shown. They could have a big draw. The bottom line is, we have no idea. It is likely safest for us to fold, having lost only 4K, but that doesn't mean it is a good fold. Or, on the other hand we could play a hunch, or make a misread, and make a bad play.. bye bye tournament (this is what actually happened). None of these sound like great outcomes.Now, look at it after we check/raise. If the villian has us beat, or has a big draw, they are likely to shove here. That's great. We get to fold knowing we were either beat or faced some sort of coin flip situation. I don't know about you, but I'm not looking to flip for all my chips here. If I were, I would have shoved pre-flop. Anyhow, most likely the villain will just call our re-reraise. Now, I contend that pretty much any card that hits the turn is not going to help us, and pretty much any card that hits the turn is not gonig to help the villain. But it doesn't even matter... the villain isn't going to bet the turn with a marginal hand or a draw. He's only going to bet the turn if he's made. Again, we have an easy decision as to what to do in the face of such a bet. Compare that to the situation above, where you have no idea what's going on. And all it cost you was an extra 4K. I contend that is a small price to pay in this hand for the chance to see the river cheap, which will happen more often than not.Lastly, donk would have us all believe that it is a typical line of play for the villain holding AJ/AQ in this situation to bet the flop, call a check raise in the face of a straight and flush draw, and then jam the turn. I happen to think this is a pretty odd way to play that hand. If you think your AJ/AQ is so good that you are willing to jam the turn, why wouldn't you just jam the flop and knock out any draws? A straight or a flush card hits the turnm (like it did), oh great, now our AJ/AQ must really be good... jam away!!! I'm starting to think that you guys play a lot of poker against people who are perfectly happy to bust out of tournaments with marignal hands, just as long as they don't have to think. Maybe this is where you get the idea that it is normal to play this way.P.S, I'm begining to think that ck/fold is a better play than check/call on the flop as well. The problem with this hand is it is highly unikely any card is going to hit the turn that we really like (maybe a 10, but even that isn't near the nuts and completes a straight draw). In that case, it's going to be hard for us to ck/call any normal turn bet unless we have a really good read on our opponent. So if its going to be really hard to call a turn bet, why are we just throwing 4K into the pot. Are we just hoping our oponent is really weak, or misses his draw, or isn't savvy enought to two barrel this pot when we have shown weakness from the beginning? It seems like a lot of wishful thinking. If our intention is to check the turn, then I think the check-call flop is the worst alternative and I'll have to think about it some more to decide if ck/raise or check/fold is best. The latter is certainly more conservative.

[TrueAce13 18]

you're a ****ing idiot.

[akashenk 12]

I'm not going to post anymore on this hand. I, as well as others, have presented a number of reasons why a c/r is just so ****ing wrong in this spot. I'm not going to type the same shit over and over again so you can post more bullshit on why you're right. If you don't want to ****ing listen then so be it. I have presented a number of ****ing reasons on why a c/r is terrible, look at your lack of reading comprehension you doucheag.I mean, your #2-5 is just so ****ing ridiculous since it's been said time and time again on why it's so ****ing wrong.Simply put, you are check/raising this flop in hopes that he has aj/aq and will slow down on the turn. You're also somewhat hoping that you get jammed on because it makes your decision easier. It doesn't, you can not fold once you check raise this flop, how do you not ****ing understand that point. You're also hoping for a fold because that rules out bluffs in his range. YOU DO NOT WANT TO FOLD OUT HIS BLUFFS. The reason we are folding the turn is because we now have a more defined range on our opponent and have determined to be better than ours.A straight forward player is probably jamming AQ on the turn, which they very well should. You've basically conceded the hand at the point and they should be going for value. AJ and AQ probably jam the flop a decent portion of the time to. ****, even draws may jam that flop a portion of the time. So great, you get jammed on and fold the best hand, check/raise really ****ing worked there didn't it. And don't ****ing tell me that players aren't capable of it. Yes they are, even straight forward ones. Straight forward players are capable of jamming with AQ over your check/raise, even AJ to an extent. Therefore, you are check/raising in hopes that he has one ****ing hand and will slow down so you get to show down cheaply.You do ****ing realize that if a club falls on the turn and he jams you have to fold. You could have ****ing foldign the turn without having to check/raise and saved yourself chips. You also do ****ing realize that if a club falls on the turn and we didn't check/raise, an opponent without a club in his hand is probably slowing down with AQ or AJ as well. THEREFORE, YOU SAVED YOURSELF ****ING MONEY BY NOT CHECK/RAISING AND GETTING TO SHOW DOWN CHEAPLY. AND YOU CAN EASILY FOLD IF YOU'RE BET INTO. YOU ACCOMPLISH THE SAME ****ING THING BY CHECK/CALLING FOR A LOT LESS MONEY.If the entire point of this hand is to tread likely, check/raising is the worst thing you can do. You can gain the same amount of information by check/calling while keeping the pot small.AND IF WE FEEL THE GUY IS BLUFFING, THEN WE DO NOT WANT TO CHECK/RAISE AND FORCE HIM TO FOLD. IF WE CONTINUE TO THINK HE IS BLUFFING ON THE TURN THAT IS WHY WE ARE CALLING. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR HAND WE HAVE CLEARL DEFINED WE DO NOT THINK HE IS BLUFFING, THAT IS WHY WE ARE FOLDING. WE DID NOT NEED TO CHECK/RAISE AND LOSE AN ADDITIONAL 6-8K CHIPS BY CHECK/RAISING. WE HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION WE NEED TO KNOW BY CHECK/CALLING.I mean, I have laid out why a check/raise is ****ing horrible. I am done responding to you in this thread. If you don't ****ing see how ****ing stupid it is to check/raise this flop, then there's just no ****ing hope .

Yo claim that "you can't fold once you check raise [...explative-laiden nonsense]" I say why not? I find it a much easier fold having check-raised than folding without having a clue what was going on. But again, maybe mindless folding is something you are familiar with in your poker experiences.Thanks for your valuable insight into this hand, donk. You will be missed on this thread.P.S, you might want to get that sticky shift key checked out.

[akashenk 12]

you're a ****ing idiot.

Hulk angry. Hulk smash!

[TrueAce13 18]

lol, love how you have never responded to any of my strategy questions that I ask or dispute anything to do w/ the fold equity or anything of that matter. keep going buddy! oh, and long rambling that you keep posting just are laughable

[TrueAce13 18]

by c/r'ing and folding to a jam, is our hand equivalent to 72o or any other bluffs? Can you not do any hand reading by bet-sizing? How do you have any FE by c/r'ing flop? And omg LOL at you saying you think the best play is not to just c/f flop. Just amazing. Pure hero here

[irishguy 14]

I really fail to see how check raising gives us any more info then check calling and him firing again on the turn...he calls cr = he likes his hand..he double barrels = he likes his hand. If he double barrel bluffs here good on him we still have plenty of chips and we move on. If we cr and don't call a shove knowing that he could be shoving a draw we are burning money long term being afraid to coin flip with dead money in the middle. Check folding is likely the only possible worse line to take then check raising..:

[TrueAce13 18]

oh and worried about getting it in as a coinflip in a tournament is another amazing strategy. Have to be willing to flip in a tournamentNot saying it to this hand in particular, but saying that the logic is flawed. Again.

[akashenk 12]

oh and worried about getting it in as a coinflip in a tournament is another amazing strategy. Have to be willing to flip in a tournamentNot saying it to this hand in particular, but saying that the logic is flawed. Again.

I didn't say I was worried about flipping in general... i said if I were willing to flip I would have shoved pre-flop. Flipping when there is a fairly good chance you are dominated too is not what I want to do, and that is the situation we found ourselves in after the flop. Maybe you like to call all-ins when you're a flip, at best. I don't."by c/r'ing and folding to a jam, is our hand equivalent to 72o or any other bluffs?"No, because 72o has zero showdown value and has very little chance of improving. We have both here."Can you not do any hand reading by bet-sizing?"You can, but that is not a precise science. I think its an awfully risky point in the tournament to go on nothing but bet-sizing to determine your read."How do you have any FE by c/r'ing flop?"By definition, whenever you raise you have FE, since folding is one of the oucomes that could occur. This doesn't mean you have A LOT of fold equity, and I don't mean to infer you do. I think its highly unlikely you would get a hand that has you beat to fold here... but there are players who would fold AJ/AQ to your check raise. They know that by calling, they are perhaps committing themselves to a really bad situation and it just isn't worth it. Maybe none of these hyper-laggy players, but there are people out there. My guess is you have something in the neighborhood of at least 10% FE in this situation. Remember, they could easily have been betting the flop with complete air."And omg LOL at you saying you think the best play is not to just c/f flop. Just amazing. Pure hero here"You were on a roll posting insightful, pertinent and somewhat interesting questions, and then you come up with this complete dud of a statement. Oh well, I guess I have to give you some credit for the previous comments.

[TrueAce13 18]

you have said many time, "if we check-raise, and villain jams on us, we can fold knowing we are way behind" or w/e you want to state. How is this not turning our hand into a bluff. All we are doing is putting more $ out there w/ LITTLE information and HOPE to check it down. WHEN WE CAN JUST PUT 4k in the pot and figure out the same stuff! Jesus. Look at sizing, timing tells, other things. You are so ****ing narrow minded. And jesus, please enlighten the community why c/f is the best play. Ya, lets just fold top pair decent kicker. 6 handed. on a coordinated board.I wish I was as true to my word as Donk and could quit posting in this thread b/c you will never change your view on this hand (which is completely flawed), but maybeeeee you can figure it out!OH, and for other people reading this thread. I really think reading Donk's posts about this hand is the complete nuts and is really good stuff. The interesting part of the hand is the turn play

[akashenk 12]

I really fail to see how check raising gives us any more info then check calling and him firing again on the turn...he calls cr = he likes his hand..he double barrels = he likes his hand.If he double barrel bluffs here good on him we still have plenty of chips and we move on. If we cr and don't call a shove knowing that he could be shoving a draw we are burning money long term being afraid to coin flip with dead money in the middle.Check folding is likely the only possible worse line to take then check raising..:

I disagree with you that if he calls the c/r, he likes his hand, unless what you mean is he likes his hand enough to call, but not enough to stake his tournament life on it.This is the subtle difference you are missing. I think a call of our check raise rules out the the chance that he has a true monster (2p or better) and this means that, barring him hitting a draw on the turn, we are likely to get to the river without another bet.Think of it this way... you have some draw... your opponent has shown some strength and appears to have committed himself to the pot. Are you really going to stake your tournament life by betting the turn big and hoping your opponent goes away or catching your draw with one card to come. I don't think so. You are much more likely to take the free card when the opportunity is presented.And so, I think it is safe to assume our opponent would not bet the turn on a draw in this situation.As far as check-folding the flop is concerned, I'm a bit conflicted. Again, there really isn't anything that can hit the turn that is all of a sudden going to make us think we are definitely good, and check calling is going to make a very hard decision for us in the face of a turn bet from the opponent. So, what is the value in throwing that 4K in to call the flop, even if we think we are ahead here. I think if our plan is to lead out the turn in the hope of stealing the pot, then perhaps check-call is better than check-fold, but I think we have been going on the assumption that we would check the turn here in most situations.

[akashenk 12]

you have said many time, "if we check-raise, and villain jams on us, we can fold knowing we are way behind" or w/e you want to state. How is this not turning our hand into a bluff. All we are doing is putting more $ out there w/ LITTLE information and HOPE to check it down. WHEN WE CAN JUST PUT 4k in the pot and figure out the same stuff! Jesus. Look at sizing, timing tells, other things. You are so ****ing narrow minded.And jesus, please enlighten the community why c/f is the best play. Ya, lets just fold top pair decent kicker. 6 handed. on a coordinated board.I wish I was as true to my word as Donk and could quit posting in this thread b/c you will never change your view on this hand (which is completely flawed), but maybeeeee you can figure it out!OH, and for other people reading this thread. I really think reading Donk's posts about this hand is the complete nuts and is really good stuff.The interesting part of the hand is the turn play

I'm not sure I ever said the c/r is not a bluff. I don't know where you got that. I think I am one of the few who is open to the notion that we are likely betting here from behind. Nevertheless, I have stated repeatedly that getting the opponent to fold the flop is neither the primary goal, nor the primary expectation.I guess you must be an onlne player. You have mentioned timing tells a few times. I can tell you that timing tells mean very little in live play and are more likely to be a reverse tell than an actual one. That being said, we don't have a lot to go by as far as behavior and tells in this hand. Yes we have bet size, but I don't think that is necessarily much to go on. Maybe you have reading bet size down cold, so i guess for you, and your kreskin-like ilk, maybe you can weak-play this hand and always know what's going on just based on that. For the rest of us, the c/r flop accomplishes the task of making the rest of our decisions in this hand a lot easier.As for c/f, I'm not sure that is the best play. I think I still like c/r more since that actually gives me a chance to win the hand. But c/f has merit above and beyon c/c if we intend to check the turn, because we can't expect to improve sufficiently enough to be able to make an easy and good decision on the turn. So we are putting 4K in the pot just hoping our opponent lifts his foot off the gas. We don't have a particularly good reason to believe he will.As far as changing my mind is concerned, I'll do so when I get some good analysis that counters mine. While I don't necessarily think any play in this istuation is horrible, I stand by my assertion that c/r is the better EV play because it gives us the best chance of winning the hand from behind and gives us a slightly better chance of winning the hand from ahead.So you say you think Donk's posts are just dreamy. I, for one, am shocked. I never believed bromance was a real thing, but I'm starting to.

[TrueAce13 18]

But turning top pair into a bluff is a horrendous play. How you have yet to realize that is just absurd and almost to the extent of ignorance. So as I said, our hand is equivalent here to 72o or any other random hand which is such a major leak.You're really just setting money on fire

[DJ Vu 176]

akashenk's position seems to be this:A check-raise will accomplish the following:1. Get bad hands to fold.2. Get marginal hands to call and check it down to the river.3. Get better hands to shove and then you can fold.And then the argument against that seems to be:1. That's not the best result.2. There's no reason to assume it will simply be checked down.3. Those same hands will bet the turn anyway, so check-call, check-fold gets the same result and saves money.Is that about it?

[TrueAce13 18]

Ummm, in a vacuum, pretty much

[Tehtoe 3]

Reasons to bet/raise in poker:1) To get value2) As a bluff3) TO PUT THE OPPONENT ON NOTICE THAT WE HAVE A HAND/informationVery enlightening!