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lederer's take on heads up w/ daniel:


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i just hope this doesnt turn in to a discussion about his history with that family.its pretty obvious howard isnt going to have encouraging things to say about Daniel. its not headline news.next...
What's the history with the family? I know there's bad blood, but why?
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Oh let's not bring that back up...You can google for some info, I'd say search for..Daniel vs Annie... the RGP threads will be entertaining... Lets you in on some dirt. Our beloved professionals aren't saints :club:

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It seems that the popular thing to these days is talk about how much trouble I'm in in all of these matches, yet neglect to play me for one reason or another. I think Howard is a very good player. I would also welcome the challenge and can't think of a game where I would feel like an underdog to him. Limit hold'em would be the toughest for sure, but I'm feeling much better about my limit hold'em game now that I've had some practice. The only other game that might worry me would be pot limit Omaha, but not so much.

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It seems that the popular thing to these days is talk about how much trouble I'm in in all of these matches, yet neglect to play me for one reason or another. I think Howard is a very good player. I would also welcome the challenge and can't think of a game where I would feel like an underdog to him. Limit hold'em would be the toughest for sure, but I'm feeling much better about my limit hold'em game now that I've had some practice. The only other game that might worry me would be pot limit Omaha, but not so much.
From my observations of both of your styles, starting out at dead even, i believe you could take him heads up daniel. Not because i am on your board telling you this, but your style is a lot more agressive than his, and there is no worse of an opponent you want to face in limit hold'em than someone who is aggressive.the whole "im too busy" thing is obnoxious because if anybody here reads your blog, im sure they'd realize how insanely busy you are.. every big pro is busy these days, busy is good!this heads up match is obviously not an income thing for you, its the challenge.. both you and Howard are doing quite well financially im sure.i say someone takes the step forward and actually gets in contact with him and sets this up.. i'd certainly like to see it. :club: Bill
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Not sure "I" want to see Howard next, while I think he is a good player and in limit could be an interesting match-up, I think the end result would be 2-2, not where I want to be :-) Howard said it himself, he is not focusing on cash games, this to me gives Daniel a good edge over him. All my own opinion though. Just not who I want to see next.Allen

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He has an edge over Howard regardless of how much Howard is "focusing" on Tournaments or Cash Games. He.Is.A.Better.Player.Maybe now that Daniel replied people won't be so harsh on my thoughts of this matter! Howard is out of his league against Daniel in nearly every facet of poker, Limit Hold'em being his best shot.

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It's great to see this railbird go to FTP and pester Howard while he plays, only to come here and paste the convo in the effort to try and cause trouble. lol gotta love the internet. :roll:

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I am sure anyone who asked Howard would have gotten the same answer. I didnt try to start trouble, I posted it to promote discussion on the topic. I am sure people are curious what other pros think about Daniel's challenge.And I am sure Howard wouldnt have said "But don't tell Daniel!!" Both men have the healthy egos that every good poker play has. I am sure Daniel knew that Howard thought he had the edge in some games, and Im sure Howard know Daniel thinks he has the edge. This wasnt news, just promoting discussion. And i wasnt railbirding I was playing. On an unrelated note, I too am a foxwoods player. How often and what games do you sit in?

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too busy= dont want the publicity of losing heads up to dn.....
Oh grow up.-adam
What game do you think Lederer would be a favorite against DN in? The closest would be Limit HE, In which I'd still give the edge to DN, slightly, if not 50-50.
How do you know he has the edge?Where are you people coming up with the logical basis these statements of opinion that someone can beat someone else in games that you've never seen either player play?I don't care who has the edge because there's no way of knowing. These are heads up mixed games and I refuse to pull numbers out of my ass for even limit hold'em.-adam
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grow up?? lol... sorry my opinion doesnt match yours ...i just feel that lederer couldnt handle dn heads up, or rather lederer wouldnt like the publicity of getting beat by dn...if you dont like my opinion , dont read my post...but dont say grow up like your opinion is more valid than mine...i see you tend to like threads that are negative dn , im not a blind dn fanboy, i tell it like it is...edit....limit holdem would be howards best bet, but i would still give the edge to dn like 60/40....
I told you to grow up because you're jumping to ridiculous conclusions without explaining your logic.How many different games have you seen lederer play? Why is it that everyone who doesn't want to play dan is a wuss?If you're going to make such broad statements about someone's character or your opinion on their reasons for making a decision, at least explain it logically. Howard doesn't have much of an ego, and I don't really see how any publicity would affect someone who practices buddhism and grew up playing chess and listening to the dead. Even if you lose a heads-up match, the best players, Daniel included, know that a great amount of the outcome is related to luck over such a short run.-adam
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How do you know he has the edge?Where are you people coming up with the logical basis these statements of opinion that someone can beat someone else in games that you've never seen either player play?I don't care who has the edge because there's no way of knowing. These are heads up mixed games and I refuse to pull numbers out of my ass for even limit hold'em.-adam
How do I know he has the edge? This might be regarding the "other games" where I said the closest game for Howard would be Limit Hold'em.
I would also welcome the challenge and can't think of a game where I would feel like an underdog to him
Well... Maybe I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass? Daniel himself states that Limit Hold'em would be the toughest, beyond that Omaha 8/b would be the second toughest. Maybe I have some Logic to make these statements? It's kind of easy to tell when one pro is better than the other at a specific game. Much easier to find this information out about the established pros than new guys to the game, or two friends playing.These players have logged a lot of hours at a lot of different tables. Lederer, in my "logical" opinion is NOT as well rounded as Daniel, I think this might be part of the reason he doesn't play in the Big Game.I don't know why you're so negative here... who rubbed you the wrong way Arsene? I don't see anything I've written that is "unlogical" at all.I admitted Daniel's not the favorite in a lot of these games he's playing because he doesn't get too chose the game! He's even admitted this. What's so wrong with giving opinions on who might be a slight favorite in some games?
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too busy= dont want the publicity of losing heads up to dn.....
Oh grow up.-adam
What game do you think Lederer would be a favorite against DN in? The closest would be Limit HE, In which I'd still give the edge to DN, slightly, if not 50-50.
How do you know he has the edge?Where are you people coming up with the logical basis these statements of opinion that someone can beat someone else in games that you've never seen either player play?I don't care who has the edge because there's no way of knowing. These are heads up mixed games and I refuse to pull numbers out of my ass for even limit hold'em.-adam
how do i know he has the edge? i dont have numbers to support my OPINION ,...i truly feel dn would have a slight edge over lederer in limit holdem, actually in pretty much any game that was chosen..part of the fun of these forums is we get to state our OPINION <after all we are still in america correct?> like i told you before, if you don't like what i post, you have the right to not read it..you have posted a few times about how ppl here "worship" dn ,,i am not one of those ppl.i am a fan yes, but i have the ability to call it like i see it....i would suggest not taking a poker forum as serious as you have , kinda takes the fun out of it...but after reading a few of your posts, i doubt you have much fun...
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Please bear with me..

Assume the following:1. You are a sports fan.2. A friend invites you to a 1v1 badminton match between a couple of players who play on multi-person squads.3. You are familiar with the sport, having seen 10 hours of ESPN telecasts of the team events. 4. You've seen each of the players in the match 0n TV, both of whom play the same specific position (towards the back of the field), for a combined total of 3 hours of airtime.5. You play badminton at family gatherings and understand the rules.6. You have some knowledge, based partly off of hearsay and discussions, of what caliber each player is at the 1v1 game.Problem:Your friend asks you to guess the odds of a specific player winning. How accurately can you guess the favorite?
What information is available? 1. 3 hours of watching people play badminton on tv.Well yes, you have this personal information, but it's not the same game you've seen on TV. Reaching a conclusion based on this alone is possible if the difference between the players is blatantly obvious, IMO.You learn a lot more about a player's style in a physical game where they are constantly responding to new information than poker, in which roughly 20% of the hands are aired in the context of a final table of a specific game and most of the airtime is spent watching people think for minutes on end.2. HearsayConsider the source. We saw with the whole barry incident how words get twisted around really quickly online and how people even make up quotes for other individuals. There simply isn't enough reliability to any of this information, and we don't have much of it for either player at all of these games, howard especially.3. Results.On any particular day, one of the players might have unspecified edges such as being healthier or in a better mood than their opponent, etc. This adds to the uncertainty of one's predicition and, with relatively equal caliber players, serves to level the odds that one player will routinely crush another.In poker, you can discredit a certain edge because of the luck factor. Your estimate takes on additional uncertainty because of the very nature of the game. Both Daniel and Howard have great tourney records in a variety of games, but how applicable are these to HU cash game freezeouts?My argument:In my example, I presented a nonsensical example where the limits of available information were defined. I also showed that poker has even less information available because of the increased 'noise' factor of chance. I also showed that the context of the games being discussed (more than just LHE) make this determination even harder to make. I hope my point is clear. My grow up statement was just my frustration with what I felt was mere speculation rather than intelligent discussion of the subject. It's kind of upsetting when someone as calm as Howard can't have the words "i'm too busy" taken to mean "i'm too busy."-adam
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Please bear with me..
Assume the following:1. You are a sports fan.2. A friend invites you to a 1v1 badminton match between a couple of players who play on multi-person squads.3. You are familiar with the sport, having seen 10 hours of ESPN telecasts of the team events. 4. You've seen each of the players in the match 0n TV, both of whom play the same specific position (towards the back of the field), for a combined total of 3 hours of airtime.5. You play badminton at family gatherings and understand the rules.6. You have some knowledge, based partly off of hearsay and discussions, of what caliber each player is at the 1v1 game.Problem:Your friend asks you to guess the odds of a specific player winning. How accurately can you guess the favorite?
What information is available? 1. 3 hours of watching people play badminton on tv.Well yes, you have this personal information, but it's not the same game you've seen on TV. Reaching a conclusion based on this alone is possible if the difference between the players is blatantly obvious, IMO.You learn a lot more about a player's style in a physical game where they are constantly responding to new information than poker, in which roughly 20% of the hands are aired in the context of a final table of a specific game and most of the airtime is spent watching people think for minutes on end.2. HearsayConsider the source. We saw with the whole barry incident how words get twisted around really quickly online and how people even make up quotes for other individuals. There simply isn't enough reliability to any of this information, and we don't have much of it for either player at all of these games, howard especially.3. Results.On any particular day, one of the players might have unspecified edges such as being healthier or in a better mood than their opponent, etc. This adds to the uncertainty of one's predicition and, with relatively equal caliber players, serves to level the odds that one player will routinely crush another.In poker, you can discredit a certain edge because of the luck factor. Your estimate takes on additional uncertainty because of the very nature of the game. Both Daniel and Howard have great tourney records in a variety of games, but how applicable are these to HU cash game freezeouts?My argument:In my example, I presented a nonsensical example where the limits of available information were defined. I also showed that poker has even less information available because of the increased 'noise' factor of chance. I also showed that the context of the games being discussed (more than just LHE) make this determination even harder to make. I hope my point is clear. My grow up statement was just my frustration with what I felt was mere speculation rather than intelligent discussion of the subject. It's kind of upsetting when someone as calm as Howard can't have the words "i'm too busy" taken to mean "i'm too busy."-adam
you are a very serious person i take it...im not sure what playing chess and listening to the dead has anything to do with it, but ok....sorry my "argument" wasnt intelligent enough for you..ill now hang my head in shame p.s does howard also drive a dodge stratus?sw
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Could you update us on Howards history with the big Games?
He was on the team who took on Andy Beal so he has at least played 10k-20k. I'm not sure what his financial commitment was in those games but he has played as high as anyone.
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I don't know why you're so negative here... who rubbed you the wrong way Arsene? I don't see anything I've written that is "unlogical" at all.
It's not so much your post that rubbed me the wrong way, mostly the first post I replied to that got me in a bad mood. I just think there is a lot of ungrounded speculation, which is fine, but not when people use that speculation to make statements like this:
I love these PRO poker players who are saying they are to busy to play heads up. Ok Howard, you have time to play for play money on FTP but not 5 hours to make 500k, good excuse.
Does Daniel not feeling he's a dog at most of these games necessarily even mean that he feels he's a favorite? He could either be uncertain or feel that the match is even, as well.. And Daniel giving his opinion doesn't add much weight to the argument, either. Even in attempting to be as realistic as possible, he still has a biased view.But, as I have yet to say... Howard probably is a dog for the exact reasons he stated. Occam's razor at work, if you assume he's not lying, which I don't. He's probably out of practice.And FWIW, Daniel's results in the big game are still over a pretty short run. I'll tell you about the time I got 2 royals and 2 straightflushes in 30 hours some day. Probability is weird like that. But at least you did offer an explanation for your views, unlike some people who prefer to rail on others for not doing what they don't want to do. I guess 'grow up' is more apropo in response to those posts.-adam
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p.s does howard also drive a dodge stratus?sw
My friend todd does.I have the chrysler clone, the cirrus. The quote doesn't work as well with mine, though.-adam
thanks for draining every ounce of humor out of this ....lighten up broham...
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Maybe I have some Logic to make these statements? It's kind of easy to tell when one pro is better than the other at a specific game. Much easier to find this information out about the established pros than new guys to the game, or two friends playing.
- How exactly is it 'easy' to tell when one pro is better than another? WSOP finishes? Other large-scale tourny finishes? Side-game performances? Other pro's opinions? Their own opinion? I believe that is in fact very difficult to determine who is better at one particular game. After all, they are many varying strategies to all forms of poker, many of which are profitable. None of which is easy to calculate or determine which is more profitable aside from actual heads-up battles between these two varying 'styles'. Playing say 50 of these heads-up matches would determine the better player? 100? 1000?
These players have logged a lot of hours at a lot of different tables. Lederer, in my "logical" opinion is NOT as well rounded as Daniel, I think this might be part of the reason he doesn't play in the Big Game.
- I am sure Howard and Daniel have logged many hours at the same table, yet both believe that each in their own would have an edge over the other in one particular game. More proof that it is very difficult to determine who is actually 'better' at one form of poker over the other, aside form their egos. More importantly, speculation on exactly why Howard does not play in the Big Game is too hard to determine - I would think many other factors excluding his play/performance at this level come into play.
I admitted Daniel's not the favorite in a lot of these games he's playing because he doesn't get too chose the game! He's even admitted this. What's so wrong with giving opinions on who might be a slight favorite in some games?
- I agree in that giving each other's opinion's is fun and enjoyable, but if a truely accurate depiction is sought for, more than just opinion should be taken into consideration. The Corporation is a group of players who play at the highest limits to date in poker. Performance at this level should be taken into consideration first and foremost - in which Howard has shown through example that he can and has succeeded at the highest level.Maybe reasons why some of the many 'name' pros have not given Daniel action in the $500,000 heads-up matches has more to do with factors other than who thinks they have an edge over the other. Ex.) Let's speculate that Phil Ivey is a 75% favorite to 1.5 BB/hour at the 4k/8k level, but only a 52% favorite over Daniel in a $500,000 heads-up match - where is his time more well spent? What is Daniel's own desire to play $500,000 heads-up matches where his competitor gets to name the game, is he getting backed by the Wynn poker room to balance the competitor's slim edge? What is Daniel getting from the publicity of a heads-up match for half a mill between two big name poker pros at the Wynn? Heads-up matches are high variance and $500,000 is a lot of money to anyone. Someone do some EV calculations there...
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it wasnt long ago that howard was thought to be one of the best limit he players in the world. maybe that was before poker became some of ur hobbies. limit he id put them at about a coinflip. I wouldnt put any great player too far above any other great player in limit he.

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I love these PRO poker players who are saying they are to busy to play heads up. Ok Howard, you have time to play for play money on FTP but not 5 hours to make 500k, good excuse. Honestly, if anyone thought they were a favorite they could squeeze in a couple hours. censored the fu.cking president plays like 36 holes of golf a day and Howard Lederer can't play a heads up match. censored.
This is actually the stuff that Howard is too busy doing. He appears to have given up playing cash games to concentrate on the tournament circuit and promoting FTP (which includes a commitment by him to actually play the fake money tables occasionally). By his own admission, he's not in top shape for the purpose of playing cash games (which is different from playing tournament poker) and would probably want some time to work on his game first.
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p.s does howard also drive a dodge stratus?sw
My friend todd does.I have the chrysler clone, the cirrus. The quote doesn't work as well with mine, though.-adam
thanks for draining every ounce of humor out of this ....lighten up broham...
Oh no, I find it quite hilarious that you didn't understand that my deadpan there was an attempt at humor. :club:-adam
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p.s does howard also drive a dodge stratus?sw
My friend todd does.I have the chrysler clone, the cirrus. The quote doesn't work as well with mine, though.-adam
thanks for draining every ounce of humor out of this ....lighten up broham...
Oh no, I find it quite hilarious that you didn't understand that my deadpan there was an attempt at humor. :club:-adam
deadpan works very well when TYPED sw
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This is actually the stuff that Howard is too busy doing. He appears to have given up playing cash games to concentrate on the tournament circuit and promoting FTP (which includes a commitment by him to actually play the fake money tables occasionally). By his own admission, he's not in top shape for the purpose of playing cash games (which is different from playing tournament poker) and would probably want some time to work on his game first.
Anyone know when FTP was founded? It'd be interesting to see if it ends up the fastest growing OP site after the WSOP, provided their promo works out.
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