Deist And Libertarian Defense

[timwakefield 68]

Haha. BUT YOU WEREN'T THERE!!!

:(Trounced again!

[BaseJester 1]

That His mission was to the Jews, but that He was forgiving enough to give it to the people the Jews thought least of?

This explanation would work if "the Jews" had referred to her as a dog instead of Jesus himself.Do Gentiles require more forgiving than Jews? Is Jesus forgiving people for not being a Jew? Or are you just saying that Jesus had some excess capacity to forgive available to Gentiles?

[vbnautilus 48]

You can pretend that...but you know the real answer.

The real answer is that whenever someone clings to a dogma, suffering is on its way. It doesn't too much matter whether that dogmatic system puts an imagined man in the sky as the ultimate authority or a man in Germany.

[Balloon guy 158]

This explanation would work if "the Jews" had referred to her as a dog instead of Jesus himself.Do Gentiles require more forgiving than Jews? Is Jesus forgiving people for not being a Jew? Or are you just saying that Jesus had some excess capacity to forgive available to Gentiles?

Christ had greater meanings in many things He did because He had the perfect knowledge of the outcome.And the Samaritans were more like a sect of the Jews, not like the Caanites or fifty other -ites.So the Samaritans and Jews had a different dislike from all other people. The Jews thought they were chosen by God, which of course elevated you, but the Samaritans claimed a better/different understanding of Judaism, so their hatred was special.So Christ going to that well, and meeting that women, were the preclude to a purpose.btw I have a copy of the Samaritan Women by the Well from Rembrandt by my bed. It's a pressing from the original wood carving. ( only worth about a grand so not a 'true' Rembrandt )

[Balloon guy 158]

The real answer is that whenever someone clings to a dogma, suffering is on its way. It doesn't too much matter whether that dogmatic system puts an imagined man in the sky as the ultimate authority or a man in Germany.

You sound very....sure about that.

[Balloon guy 158]

Again you're asking for one of the most complex and involved processes known to science to be explained as if it were simple arithmetic. A "flowchart" describing hundreds of millions of years of evolution ending in any specific mammal would be ludicrously complicated. OH WAIT HERE IT IS

So wait...is it the most complex thing ever, or is the wiki 'flowchart' complete?Please get your story straight.

[vbnautilus 48]

You sound very....sure about that.

I'm open to hearing evidence to the contrary. You have some?

[DJ Vu 176]

I'm open to hearing evidence to the contrary. You have some?

It's like when Obi-Wan says "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

[timwakefield 68]

So wait...is it the most complex thing ever, or is the wiki 'flowchart' complete?Please get your story straight.

It's ludicrously complex, but the wiki "flowchart" (your words, not mine, so I dunno why you put it in quotes) is a simplified look at one single branch. This is obvious.

[Balloon guy 158]

It's ludicrously complex, but the wiki "flowchart" (your words, not mine, so I dunno why you put it in quotes) is a simplified look at one single branch. This is obvious.

SIMPLIFIED? ABOUT THIS INCREDIBLY COMPLEX SCIENCE? UNPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Balloon guy 158]

It's like when Obi-Wan says "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

I would be Obi-wan in this example vb.....my padawan

[vbnautilus 48]

I would be Obi-wan in this example vb.....my padawan

So you're not sure about all that god stuff then?

[brvheart 1,752]

What do you think was Jesus' purpose in referring to her as a dog in his metaphor?

I don't think we have enough information to understand that, and just jumping to RACIST isn't logical, since Jesus was heavily looked down on by the Jewish hierarchy for treating Gentiles as equals with Jews.

A black woman walks into a white hospital in South Africa during Apartheid. Upon seeing a white doctor, she screams for his help as she needs medication. The white doctor replies, "I am here to help white people. It is not right to take this perfectly good medicine and waste it on you dogs"“Yes it is, doctor,” she said. “Even dogs need to visit the vet.”Then the white doctor smiled at her and replied, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.”You see, this doctor wasn't racist. In fact, it's the opposite of that, since he, you know, healed her and stuff.

To come to this conclusion I'm going to need more information...What time period did this event happen in? Was it more than 2,000 years ago?Were dogs and vets looked down upon in that society?Were women looked down on?Can you describe all possible reasons for the white doctors initial response, including his views on women, men, animals, area of origin, belief system, race, etc?Was the medication expensive?Did this woman have health insurance?Could the doctor be referring to her inability to pay for his services, and her color was just a coincidence?Can you please explain the ins and outs of circumstantial evidence?

Matthew 7:12 my friend.

I'm not sure the Golden Rule applies here, since I don't care if you read my posts or not.

[BaseJester 1]

To come to this conclusion I'm going to need more information...What time period did this event happen in? Was it more than 2,000 years ago?Were dogs and vets looked down upon in that society?Were women looked down on?Can you describe all possible reasons for the white doctors initial response, including his views on women, men, animals, area of origin, belief system, race, etc?Was the medication expensive?Did this woman have health insurance?Could the doctor be referring to her inability to pay for his services, and her color was just a coincidence?Can you please explain the ins and outs of circumstantial evidence?

I challenge you to find a set of reasonable answers that makes the story not demonstrate racism. E.g., how might the time period really affect the conclusion? Is there a time in history when dogs are revered and health care an insult?

[brvheart 1,752]

I challenge you to find a set of reasonable answers that makes the story not demonstrate racism. E.g., how might the time period really affect the conclusion? Is there a time in history when dogs are revered and health care an insult?

How are you coming to the conclusion that the dog comment was related specifically to the woman's race and not, for example, her hair color or gender or shingle style on her house?

[speedz99 145]

So you're not sure about all that god stuff then?

Heh.

[speedz99 145]

How are you coming to the conclusion that the dog comment was related specifically to the woman's race and not, for example, her hair color or gender or shingle style on her house?

Would any of those things make it any better?

[brvheart 1,752]

Would any of those things make it any better?

We were discussing whether or not Jesus was a blatant racist. If you want to start a new argument about whether or not Jesus was demeaning or being negative to anyone, then I can go down that road. However, I find it ridiculous that people, including your post before your edited it, can say it's "obvious" or "clear" that the motivations of a person who lived in a totally different culture 2000 years ago were definitely based on race.

[speedz99 145]

We were discussing whether or not Jesus was a blatant racist. If you want to start a new argument about whether or not Jesus was demeaning or being negative to anyone, then I can go down that road. However, I find it ridiculous that people, including your post before your edited it, can say it's "obvious" or "clear" that the motivations of a person who lived in a totally different culture 2000 years ago were definitely based on race.

By that logic, there's nothing about the jesus story that you can definitively claim to understand. Rendering all of christianity basically moot. So I don't think you want to say that.

[brvheart 1,752]

By that logic, there's nothing about the jesus story that you can definitively claim to understand. Rendering all of christianity basically moot. So I don't think you want to say that.

But you guys think that anyway, so why use that logic to claim he is racist? Especially when nothing in that story says anything specifically about her race and the entire argument is based on conjecture. (move to strike)

[speedz99 145]

But you guys think that anyway, so why use that logic to claim he is racist?

I suppose it's the same circular argument we get into around here all the time. Basically, I think that, either way, your take is incorrect. Option A: We can interpret the bible based on today's sensibilities and knowledge of that period in time. In this case, the argment that "dog" might mean something completely benign is extraordinarily silly...you must be able to see that. No matter how he meant it exactly, it was a derogatory term for something. Why he was racist/sexist/whateverist is a whole other topic. Maybe he had to fit into society in order to be taken seriously. Who knows. Or maybe the part of him that was a man was subject to the day's societal norms.Option B: We can't interpret the bible based on today's sensibilities and knowledge of that period in time. In this case, we don't know what "dog" means. But, again, but that logic none of the bible can be truly understood, not even words we think should have obvious meanings, so no christian should be able to say for sure what any of it means, which would kind of put a damper on the whole thing. There's no religion if you don't know what any of it means.

[DJ Vu 176]

No matter how he meant it exactly, it was a derogatory term for something. Why he was racist/sexist/whateverist is a whole other topic. Maybe he had to fit into society in order to be taken seriously. Who knows. Or maybe the part of him that was a man was subject to the day's societal norms.

I did some googling to see what the common explanation is for this. One popular theory is that Jesus learned from this. "Hey, these dogs are people too!" This woman, who Jesus calls a dog, opens Jesus’ eyes to a reality he had not expected. God’s love overflows further than ever asked or imagined. Yes, through Jesus God invites the Jews to the table of eternal life, but it’s an extravagant banquet. The table can’t hold all the food; when God provides, there is always more than enough. God is like my dad; he always makes way too much food for the people he invites for dinner. There are always leftovers.But this theory would need to have a starting point that Jesus was racist first. Seems kind of dumb to me.Another theory is that he was teaching her (us) how to pray. Seems like a stretch to me, but makes more sense than the first one from the standpoint of not requiring a racist savior.

[speedz99 145]

But this theory would need to have a starting point that Jesus was racist first. Seems kind of dumb to me.

Yes, that theory is silly.

Another theory is that he was teaching her (us) how to pray. Seems like a stretch to me, but makes more sense than the first one from the standpoint of not requiring a racist savior.

Yeah, it's a stretch to assume that he was basically just saying no to teach her to keep asking if prayers aren't answered. She obviously already knew to keep asking (and he should have known that she knew), so it was pointless. I guess that I could buy the extraordinary stretch that he went through that whole show because he knew it would end up being written about in the bible, so it was done to teach the reader a lesson.

[Balloon guy 158]

I did some googling to see what the common explanation is for this. One popular theory is that Jesus learned from this. "Hey, these dogs are people too!" This woman, who Jesus calls a dog, opens Jesus’ eyes to a reality he had not expected. God’s love overflows further than ever asked or imagined. Yes, through Jesus God invites the Jews to the table of eternal life, but it’s an extravagant banquet. The table can’t hold all the food; when God provides, there is always more than enough. God is like my dad; he always makes way too much food for the people he invites for dinner. There are always leftovers.But this theory would need to have a starting point that Jesus was racist first. Seems kind of dumb to me.Another theory is that he was teaching her (us) how to pray. Seems like a stretch to me, but makes more sense than the first one from the standpoint of not requiring a racist savior.

Not sure what makes you think that is a popular theory, it fact it would be a deviation from the entire doctrine of who Christ is.Also not sure why you guys failed to understand that Samaritans were like Baptists to Methodists. They were Jews with a different focus. Therefore Christ was showing them that their opinions of each other were ignored by God, and He saw them as all the same, sinners in need of grace.

[DJ Vu 176]

I guess that I could buy the extraordinary stretch that he went through that whole show because he knew it would end up being written about in the bible, so it was done to teach the reader a lesson.

Probably should've just healed her without insulting her first and then told the parable of the master and his dog.