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Deist And Libertarian Defense


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Well, you aren't the universe.
Sure I am. I am one of its branches so to speak. I don't see a substantive difference between parts of the universe being conscious and the whole thing being conscious. ( in terms of whether it's god )
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Deism is too absurd to bother to discuss. Virtually no one believes it anyways. It's primary purpose is for religious people to use weak "bait and switch" arguments. A better discussion would be "Is moderate religion a good thing, or should we try to eliminate it entirely from society?"Let's define religion as "the belief in life after death and justice in the next life" since those are the two most important religious beliefs. Obviously religious extremists need to be opposed. I have more mixed feelings about religion in general though. It's pretty useless to me since I just don't think that way, but a majority of people seem to get significant value from it. On a practical level Northern Europe seems to be remarkably successful with very few religious beliefs. On the abstract level, there are a lot of immoral people who I'd want to have a selfish reason(heaven) not to commit crimes and other destructive acts. -Is the idea of people behaving better due to selfish religious reasons just a myth?-A lot of religious value is just the value of belonging to a group, but how much is left that people in a non-religious society would significantly miss? -Are most people designed by evolution to choose some sort of religious explanation to give their life meaning? There seems to be some decent evidence that they are. -Does the happiness(and order?) gained from the average person believing that the universe is a good place outweigh the increased delusional thinking needed to achieve this goal? -If we heavily emphasized that religion is an individual/private choice would we be able to minimize the damage that religious fundamentalists cause and not have to eliminate religion entirely? -The idea that everything you are and everything you care about will be completely destroyed can be pretty unpleasant. Would the average person really be happier if we exerted social pressure to get people to universally accept this belief? Does accepting that belief ultimately place you on the path to greater enlightenment and happiness? Obviously it works well for some people, but I'm not convinced that an atheistic Buddhist type belief system is actually best for your average person.-Would it be possible to come up with a religion that actually unifies society? The compromise would be obvious- religious people agree not to believe anything contradicted by science. Atheists have a silent agreement not to criticize unverifiable beliefs. This compromise doesn't seem too likely though since Atheists and the most irrational religions have gained the most ground in the last few decades. But without a move towards more rational religions, do Atheists have any choice but to keep opposing religion?

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Perhaps what The Spademan was getting at was Calling that a god or not calling it a god makes no substantive difference, so calling it god is just an unnecessary complication.
Uh... only kinda. I was getting at his blatant implication that he went on to explicitly state:
God: conscious entity which created the universe.
Given a choice between a "conscious entity which created the universe" and "the universe" the parsimonious choice is fucking obvious. Since there is:1. No need for a conscious entity to explain the existence of the universe.2. No evidence, whatsoever, in any way, shape or form, at any point, in all of human history, from knuckle-dragging primate to post enlightenment primate, from any place, in any language or discernible communication method, at all, ever, not the most tiny shred, indirect or direct, for any "conscious entity which created the universe" that would be in any relevant way different from a claim of invisible unicorns shitting intangible rainbows on your face at night.It is (that is to say, should be) a very, very simple matter to parsimoniously spare the magical and extraordinary and unnecessary and unprecedented nonsense from ones understanding. It should be really, really simple. Like, "what the fuck? Adding this magic and invisible and intangible thing that there is precisely zero evidence for is stupid. How about adding the character Voldermort riding a My Little Pony that is galloping past its natural capacity because it is high on Odin's piss that it stole from GJlaOSDS, the 4 headed marble Alien from the planet MAPx, which circles a inside-out star (that is to say a star that is the opposite in every way to any star we've ever discovered) that floats in the 8 billionth dimension which is composed entirely of goat. If there is ZERO evidence for x, literally nothing whatsoever to even intimate the existence x, then why not just say fuck parsimony altogether and see how many stupid ass parts you can add to x. Wow, maybe I shouldn't add shit to things for no logical reason. Doing so would make me a fucking retard."
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I believe in God. But I'm not going to cut anybodys nut sack off or think myself intellectually superior to anyone else if they don't. I simply think that nothing could exist from nothing, forever in all of infinity, and then a blast or bang came along for no apparent reason whatsoever and created everything as we know it....well what created that bang? Somewhere, something had to begin something else so more somethings could do the same. There's the analogy entitled The Watchmaker that can provide more insight on this. If evolution is true, why are there still inferior animals that haven't changed in thousands upon thousands, even hundreds of millions of years? Shouldn't they have evolved and adapted with increased intelligence and superior bodily function since the knuckle dragging primates, lowly ameobas, or whatever we "used" to be apparently did? Check out the research involving living fossils sometime for more details. In short, the missign link theory becomes highly improbable as various rock strata shows evidences of incorrect overlapping as well as fossils from creatures that are still around today. I believe that our creator could do anything, up to and including making primates speak, stand upright and worship Him if He wanted to, I just am not sure that he did. On that note, ironic as it is, human beings are more closely related to a pig genetically, than a primate. Why do you think soft tissue from them are more successfully transplanted to humans? That sort of throws a loop hole into the whole evolutionary way of thinking to me and also lets me know that maybe the big guy upstairs may have a sense of humor. Everyday, scientist are becoming more and more confounded as they find out new things about DNA, chromosomes and genetic make up overall.There must be some higher architech of mankind, nature, and of course the endless universe. Science and God can both be true. We can all be right, sort of. In regards to simple conciousness making someone God, sure. However, very few of us will ever have 10% knowledge of everything that will ever be, and thats just in our immediate earthly surroundings. If you get to 50%, well you're probably the smartest man on the planet. So if you can prove to me that you have 100% conciousness of everything, not just in our immediate surroundings, but everywhere in the universe and beyond, then I have no choice but to acknowledge that you are God. Good luck! But as it has been said many times, I guess there's really only one way to find out. I'm not saying you guys are less intelligent than me, or inferior in anyway, cause it's not really a pecker measuring contest. I'm just telling you guys what science/fact have alluded to recently as well as let you know that you do have as much faith as I do..... you just have faith that there is no God, and I have faith that He exists. So it all boils down to that, faith! =)So until someone jumps into his or her spaceship, flys to the end of the universe(s) and shows me a kodak picture of it and says ''See, its just nothing you little sillys!" then I will be like, awww. Ok. heh. It's just us and our crazy little minds what created an entity so we could all feel safe down here on this god awful planet. Forgive me L. Ron Hubbard and Steven Hawkings. I failed thee.

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If evolution is true, why are there still inferior animals that haven't changed in thousands upon thousands, even hundreds of millions of years? Shouldn't they have evolved and adapted with increased intelligence and superior bodily function since the knuckle dragging primates, lowly ameobas, or whatever we "used" to be apparently did?
Well, somebody has to provide silly internet posts.
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On that note, ironic as it is, human beings are more closely related to a pig genetically, than a primate. Why do you think soft tissue from them are more successfully transplanted to humans?
That's...that's not true at all. Like, not even a little. Pig parts are used because they're the right size, also there aren't a lot of large primates available for us to take vital body parts from. Genetically speaking, humans are MUCH closer to primates than pigs. There are other reasons to use pig parts, but don't take my word for it. Go on google and do some research for yourself.I'm choosing only to respond to this one of many ridiculous statements because it's an easy fix based on clear fact, and I don't have time for the rest. Seeing that you were 100% incorrect about a simple fact, are you now questioning the other things about science you have learned about from religioius people? I'd hope so.
i literally can't wait for spademan to assualt you.
I doubt he'll respond. That post was way too incoherent for him to bother with. Also, it's possibly completely fake.
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I believe in God. But I'm not going to cut anybodys nut sack off or think myself intellectually superior to anyone else if they don't. I simply think that nothing could exist from nothing, forever in all of infinity, and then a blast or bang came along for no apparent reason whatsoever and created everything as we know it....well what created that bang? Somewhere, something had to begin something else so more somethings could do the same. There's the analogy entitled The Watchmaker that can provide more insight on this. If evolution is true, why are there still inferior animals that haven't changed in thousands upon thousands, even hundreds of millions of years? Shouldn't they have evolved and adapted with increased intelligence and superior bodily function since the knuckle dragging primates, lowly ameobas, or whatever we "used" to be apparently did? Check out the research involving living fossils sometime for more details. In short, the missign link theory becomes highly improbable as various rock strata shows evidences of incorrect overlapping as well as fossils from creatures that are still around today. I believe that our creator could do anything, up to and including making primates speak, stand upright and worship Him if He wanted to, I just am not sure that he did. On that note, ironic as it is, human beings are more closely related to a pig genetically, than a primate. Why do you think soft tissue from them are more successfully transplanted to humans? That sort of throws a loop hole into the whole evolutionary way of thinking to me and also lets me know that maybe the big guy upstairs may have a sense of humor. Everyday, scientist are becoming more and more confounded as they find out new things about DNA, chromosomes and genetic make up overall.There must be some higher architech of mankind, nature, and of course the endless universe. Science and God can both be true. We can all be right, sort of. In regards to simple conciousness making someone God, sure. However, very few of us will ever have 10% knowledge of everything that will ever be, and thats just in our immediate earthly surroundings. If you get to 50%, well you're probably the smartest man on the planet. So if you can prove to me that you have 100% conciousness of everything, not just in our immediate surroundings, but everywhere in the universe and beyond, then I have no choice but to acknowledge that you are God. Good luck! But as it has been said many times, I guess there's really only one way to find out. I'm not saying you guys are less intelligent than me, or inferior in anyway, cause it's not really a pecker measuring contest. I'm just telling you guys what science/fact have alluded to recently as well as let you know that you do have as much faith as I do..... you just have faith that there is no God, and I have faith that He exists. So it all boils down to that, faith! =)So until someone jumps into his or her spaceship, flys to the end of the universe(s) and shows me a kodak picture of it and says ''See, its just nothing you little sillys!" then I will be like, awww. Ok. heh. It's just us and our crazy little minds what created an entity so we could all feel safe down here on this god awful planet. Forgive me L. Ron Hubbard and Steven Hawkings. I failed thee.
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No response necessary. People will post in the poker strategy section and get one or two valid responses within a week. I post in the off topic, religion section and get 5 responses within 24 hours...on a freaking poker forum!!! (albeit I had you guys going with the pig thing, huh?). Just find it interesting is all. Carry on I suppose.JZ/Beyonce response FTW!!

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WE are just going thru a period of time where God just aint cool anymore.Im sure some of the guys who mock your belief, also believe. They just dont want to be labeled uncool by the forum hierachy. Spadey in particular speaks of god in a very angry manner. Problem is, how can you be angry with god, and not believe in him at the same time.No one here mocks the easter bunny, cause he obviously dont exist. Shouldnt a non god be treated the same.Waiting patiently for the "What do you mean theres no bunny?"

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Uh... only kinda. I was getting at his blatant implication that he went on to explicitly state:Given a choice between a "conscious entity which created the universe" and "the universe" the parsimonious choice is fucking obvious. Since there is:1. No need for a conscious entity to explain the existence of the universe.2. No evidence, whatsoever, in any way, shape or form, at any point, in all of human history, from knuckle-dragging primate to post enlightenment primate, from any place, in any language or discernible communication method, at all, ever, not the most tiny shred, indirect or direct, for any "conscious entity which created the universe" that would be in any relevant way different from a claim of invisible unicorns shitting intangible rainbows on your face at night.It is (that is to say, should be) a very, very simple matter to parsimoniously spare the magical and extraordinary and unnecessary and unprecedented nonsense from ones understanding. It should be really, really simple. Like, "what the fuck? Adding this magic and invisible and intangible thing that there is precisely zero evidence for is stupid. How about adding the character Voldermort riding a My Little Pony that is galloping past its natural capacity because it is high on Odin's piss that it stole from GJlaOSDS, the 4 headed marble Alien from the planet MAPx, which circles a inside-out star (that is to say a star that is the opposite in every way to any star we've ever discovered) that floats in the 8 billionth dimension which is composed entirely of goat. If there is ZERO evidence for x, literally nothing whatsoever to even intimate the existence x, then why not just say fuck parsimony altogether and see how many stupid ass parts you can add to x. Wow, maybe I shouldn't add shit to things for no logical reason. Doing so would make me a fucking retard."
Had I read this first, I may not have made previous post. But how can you say with certainty that your hypothesis is not only accurate, but hypothetically substantive in both form and clarity.It seems that the basis for your thesis concerning hypothetical {or mythical if you prefer}, entities can indeed be shown to have evidentiary basis for not only existential life qualities, but significant argument based on the large deposits of entrails, uncovered during a dig in ninava in the early 70s.So youll need better argument to show that voldermort did not actually own a little pony, let alone mounted him for said quest.
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I understand the words you used, but not the manner in which they were strung together.
all I got was that he likes nirvana's early work
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I simply think that nothing could exist from nothing, forever in all of infinity, and then a blast or bang came along for no apparent reason whatsoever and created everything as we know it....well what created that bang? Somewhere, something had to begin something else so more somethings could do the same.
The following is overused and annoyingly obvious, but it nevertheless applies quite well to your statements: What created God, and where did He come from?
If evolution is true, why are there still inferior animals that haven't changed in thousands upon thousands, even hundreds of millions of years? Shouldn't they have evolved and adapted with increased intelligence and superior bodily function since the knuckle dragging primates, lowly ameobas, or whatever we "used" to be apparently did?
The theory of evolution does not state, imply, or in any way suggest that species will always evolve toward higher intelligence. You seem to believe that it does. You are wrong. It also does not state, imply, or suggest that species (I'll assume that's what you meant by "animals") should or will always continue to evolve in any way. The fact that some species have remained relatively unchanged for hundreds of millions of years is neither surprising or contrary to the theory of evolution. It is simply a fact, and you gave zero evidence explaining why this fact is contrary to Darwinian evolution (hint: because no such evidence exists, which you would know if you understood anything about the theory you're attempting to decry). (I can't tell if you're trolling. The jump from "thousands and thousands" to "even hundreds of millions," a ludicrously huge jump in timescales, suggests that you are. There are plenty of other clues as well, that's just one that I happened to quote. But the time and effort you put into your post, and the depressingly huge number of under-educated people who pretend or even believe that they understand anything about Darwinian evolution when they plainly and obviously don't, suggests that you aren't.)
So until someone jumps into his or her spaceship, flys to the end of the universe(s) and shows me a kodak picture of it and says ''See, its just nothing you little sillys!" then I will be like, awww.
So your theory is that God lives in outer space? Well then.
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Spadey in particular speaks of god in a very angry manner. Problem is, how can you be angry with god, and not believe in him at the same time.
I don't think I've ever seen anybody express anger at God, except perhaps as a joke.
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I don't think I've ever seen anybody express anger at God, except perhaps as a joke.
If fairness, Feathers is right that Spademan does express a lot of anger and contempt towards christians and other religious people in his posts. However, the mistake that Feathers makes is that he equates that anger at deists with an anger with god.He brings up the easter bunny, and says that he doesn't exist so he obviously isn't mocked, shouldn't it be the same with god? THe problem with that, for anyone with a brain, is that Spademan isn't angry with god, he's angry with humans. The only people who believe in the Easter Bunny are children. Belief in the easter bunny is cute and there is no real world consequences in children believing in it, other than propping up the candy industry. But there are Billions of believers in god, in various forms. And that has very real world consequences. For me, those consequences are pretty much just annoyance. But for spademan, being in the armed services, they are very salient and day to day. On one hand, he has to fight religious fanatics who's god belief has turned them into terrorists/holy warriors and because of that faith, Spademan's life is in risk daily. On the other hand, with the ever increasing fundmentalization of the american armed forces, it becomes more and more difficult, socially and professionally, to be an atheist. I can't imagine how invasive Christianity is to him, on a daily level.So, given that one flavor of god faith threatens his life daily. and another flavor of god faith makes his daily life more difficult, I think it's perfectly logical that he has a lot of anger and contempt to those whom believe in god. That feathers can't sperate the difference between anger at god and anger at men shouldn't really surprise anyone at this point
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No response necessary. People will post in the poker strategy section and get one or two valid responses within a week. I post in the off topic, religion section and get 5 responses within 24 hours...on a freaking poker forum!!! (albeit I had you guys going with the pig thing, huh?). Just find it interesting is all. Carry on I suppose.JZ/Beyonce response FTW!!
This is no more coherent than your first post.
I don't think I've ever seen anybody express anger at God, except perhaps as a joke.
Uh, Lieutenant Dan?
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They do it all the time, when using their poorly thought out argument that 'if' God exists than He's vengeful and vindictive and not worthy of worship.It's kind of fun, you know, watching them say "Okay God..." then argue they are in a position to judge Him. It really requires a disconnect from logic.

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