FCP Bob 1,311 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 You still haven't demonstrated that a significant portion of birthers are racist, only that some people who are racist may use the birther thing as another reason to dislike Obama. And then you use the reasoning that some birthers are racists, and some tea partiers are birthers as evidence that the tea party is inherently racist. Do you see the fallacy of your logic? You have presented NO evidence -- NONE -- of the prevalence of racism among birthers, yet you just assume it is widespread. We have evidence of anti-semitism among OWSers. Certainly the OWS movement *could be*, theoretically, based on a hatred of Jewish bankers. So which is it: the possibility that a belief *could be* based on racism reflects on the whole movement, or it doesn't. You don't get to say "my side is never racist, therefore the racism is irrelevant, while the exact same evidence and logic of racism on the other side is meaningful." I do not believe you are that intellectually dishonest, so I'm not sure why you are making these irrational statements. Are you trolling?Sorry Henry but the evidence is that some people have made anti-semitic remarks at OWS locations. That is all the evidence there is and just because somebody is using the publicity of the OWS location doesn't make them an OWSer like you're implying.I don't doubt thoughthat there is some anti-semetic sentiment amongst the people at OWS because a lot of them are the same people who protest against Isreal and for Palestine. I base this statement on me knowing who some of the people who support the OWS cause are.So what you're saying is that the large percentage of people who support the Tea Party and Republican Party who also are birthers are all morons and not racists ? I think it's pretty safe to say that they're one or the other or both. That doesn't mean that the subset of Tea Party supporters who aren't birthers are racists but since a significant percentage of the general population is racist to deny that racism exists within the Tea Party and the oppostion to Obama is laughable.Well then that's just become an unfalsifiable theory, similar to the "we would've lost more jobs without the stimulus".Have you ever studied statistics or economics at the 2nd or 3rd year or above level at University ? I'm not saying this to take a shot at you because the position you're taking about verifiability of studies is one that somebody who doesn't have an academic background might take because they don't have a background in statistics or economics of an academic nature. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,311 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Or tax cuts create jobs.Actually tax cuts do create jobs, there just are better ways to do it when an economy is in a liquidiy trap like the US is at the moment. What they don't do is increase tax revenue other than is some way out there non real World scenarios. see Laffer Curve for that Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I checked out the OWS-Lincoln on halloween while waiting for a movie to start, and I have to say that I was shocked at how old the OWS'ers are. Like, it's been portrayed as an angry student movement in the media, and maybe it is, but most of the people I saw in Lincoln were 30+, and honestly most of them looked like vagrants. That could be the product of living in a camp for a month, but I really think that most of the "demonstrators" are just homeless people who are using the OWS as an excuse to make their camps brazenly in public and have food brought to them. And I can't hate their game, seems like a smart play for a homeless guy. Link to post Share on other sites
Zealous Donkey 0 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I think the birther movement is only explainable by racism. I never said nor do I believe that makes the tea party racist. But, I do believe birthers are racist and the GOP has a lot of birthers.I also disagree we have any evidence of anti-semitism among actual ows protesters. Some of them attending a rally is not equivalent to numerous polls stating half of all GOP primary voters were birthers. I think to equate the two is the height of irrationality. You are making an equivalency between 50% of GOP voters and a few scattered people at a rally. And I'm being intellectually dishonest? Well that is your opinion, it hardly qualifies as evidence. The fact is the president with the name Barrack Hussien Obama, whose father is from Nigeria, and who lived at least part of his childhood outside of the United States, and who has been secretive about his past, is going to cause a lot of people to want a little more proof than the word of a man who has lied so many times. What polls are you talking about, what were the questions asked, who were asked the questions? Now have there been some racist remarks by some birthers, absolutely yes, but so ****ing what, you dismiss antisemtic remarks by OWS, so I will dismiss remarks by a few birthers.A lot of people don't find the president trust worthy, think he is a socialist, ect, some may feel that way because he is black, but please don't tell me that reasonable people can't come to those same conclusions based on the president's bahavior. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,311 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I checked out the OWS-Lincoln on halloween while waiting for a movie to start, and I have to say that I was shocked at how old the OWS'ers are. Like, it's been portrayed as an angry student movement in the media, and maybe it is, but most of the people I saw in Lincoln were 30+, and honestly most of them looked like vagrants. That could be the product of living in a camp for a month, but I really think that most of the "demonstrators" are just homeless people who are using the OWS as an excuse to make their camps brazenly in public and have food brought to them. And I can't hate their game, seems like a smart play for a homeless guy. Are there a lot of homeless in Lincoln ?I do agree that if I were living on the street I would make my way to the local Occupy camp too. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Well that is your opinion, it hardly qualifies as evidence. The fact is the president with the name Barrack Hussien Obama, whose father is from Nigeria, and who lived at least part of his childhood outside of the United States, and who has been secretive about his past, is going to cause a lot of people to want a little more proof than the word of a man who has lied so many times. What polls are you talking about, what were the questions asked, who were asked the questions? Now have there been some racist remarks by some birthers, absolutely yes, but so ****ing what, you dismiss antisemtic remarks by OWS, so I will dismiss remarks by a few birthers.I've always maintained it's only my opinion. I can't see into people's hearts or minds.However, this post is a perfect microcosm. You never had just his word! You had the state of hawaii's word THE WHOLE ****ING TIME!!! What he originally produced was good enough for getting a passport or, you know, proving citizenship. Also, having a funny name should not be suspicious. Perfect example of xenophobia which I put under the umbrella of racism.Having an immigrant parent....also should not be suspicious. You're soooooo making my point.There were multiple polls by CNN, fox, rueters, etc that all put the percentage of GOP voters who believed Obama was not American at 45-50%. It's pretty straightforward.You are dismissing what half of GOP voters think (or at least thought). I'm dismissing a few stray people at a rally. If you think that's equivalent, fine, but I do not. Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Are there a lot of homeless in Lincoln ?I do agree that if I were living on the street I would make my way to the local Occupy camp too.It depends what you mean by "alot'. Lincoln's a town of 300K, so there's a sizable homeless population. They have a large and really nice city mission that I sometimes donate clothes to. IT looks more like high school campus than a homeless shelter. Link to post Share on other sites
Zealous Donkey 0 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I've always maintained it's only my opinion. However, this post is a perfect microcosm. You never had just his word! You had the state of hawaii's word THE WHOLE ****ING TIME!!! What he originally produced was good enough for getting a passport or, you know, proving citizenship. Also, having a funny name should not be suspicious. Perfect example of xenophobia which I put under the umbrella of racism.There were multiple polls by CNN, fox, rueters, etc that all put the percentage of GOP voters who believed Obama was not American at 45-50%. It's pretty straightforward.You are dismissing what half of GOP voters think (or at least thought). I'm dismissing a few stray people at a rally. If you think that's equivalent, fine, but I do not.Without a doubt a whole lot of people probabaly entertained the possibility, and were sucked in for a variety of reasons, most of which had nothing to do with race. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Without a doubt a whole lot of people probabaly entertained the possibility, and were sucked in for a variety of reasons, most of which had nothing to do with race.I don't discount that some ppl just jumped on another anti-Obama train....but even your post before shows that most of the underlying reasons are racist or xenophobic or false. So there aren't a lot of options to choose from... Link to post Share on other sites
AmScray 355 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Isn't it funny, how the world we now live in expects us to ignore the truth?Like, a bunch of Muslims hijack some planes and crash them into buildings, but we can't mention they're Muslims...A bunch of Jews completely loot the country, but we can't point out the 'common theme' that exists with so many of the culprits. So, yeah. All muslims aren't terrorists, all Jews aren't bankers, but the broader implication is clear, even if we aren't allowed to talk about it.Do you know WHY Jews have historically taken blame for this stuff? Do you think all these different civilizations down through the ages drew ethnicities from a hat and Jews happened to get picked every ****ing time? Link to post Share on other sites
Zealous Donkey 0 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I don't discount that some ppl just jumped on another anti-Obama train....but even your post before shows that most of the underlying reasons are racist or xenophobic or false. So there aren't a lot of options to choose from... Sure there are, this is at the crux of our disagreement. There are many, many, non-racial things, the fact that he is the most liberal president in the history of the country, the fact that he started his campaign in Bill Ayers house. The fact that he atteded reverend wrights church for 20 years, these kinds of things combined with the things I mentioned earlier. I think you are right to point out that a lot of people were indeed wrong in their thinking the president was not born in this country, but racism, and stupidity while certainly present aren't the dominating factors. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 So, being lberal would make him less likely to be born in America? Attending a church with an angry black pastor makes him more likely to be able to pull off a massive conspiracy? Knowing Bill Ayers makes him Kenyan?Every post you make convinces me more that birthers are either racist/xenophobic or stupid. Every one of these points derives from those two areas. I think racism and stupidity are clearly the dominating factors. Nothing you have presented seems to come from anything else. Link to post Share on other sites
Dread Aidan 8 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 So, being lberal would make him less likely to be born in America? Attending a church with an angry black pastor makes him more likely to be able to pull off a massive conspiracy? Knowing Bill Ayers makes him Kenyan?Every post you make convinces me more that birthers are either racist/xenophobic or stupid. Every one of these points derives from those two areas. I think racism and stupidity are clearly the dominating factors. Nothing you have presented seems to come from anything else.No, he's saying that because people really didn't like Obama, they were latching onto anything that could possibly discredit him. I think. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 No, he's saying that because people really didn't like Obama, they were latching onto anything that could possibly discredit him. I think.But that's stupid! Link to post Share on other sites
Dread Aidan 8 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 But that's stupid!Oh, right, racist or stupid. Yeah, it seems like it would be one of those things. Bipartisan high five! Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Oh, right, racist or stupid. Yeah, it seems like it would be one of those things. Bipartisan high five!Yeah, in fairness I initially said only racism but i have been convinced stupidity is probably right there.And I was lumping xenophobia with racism which some might not.Still, definite bi-partisan high five. Link to post Share on other sites
Zealous Donkey 0 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 So, being lberal would make him less likely to be born in America? Attending a church with an angry black pastor makes him more likely to be able to pull off a massive conspiracy? Knowing Bill Ayers makes him Kenyan?Every post you make convinces me more that birthers are either racist/xenophobic or stupid. Every one of these points derives from those two areas. I think racism and stupidity are clearly the dominating factors. Nothing you have presented seems to come from anything else.Being a ****ing liar, secretive about his past, and actually not living in the United States and having a foreign father, and having a press corp which absolutely refuses to vet his candidacy caused a lot of people to at least entertain the notion that he wasn't born in this country. Actually slipping and saying he was of Muslim faith, turning NASA into a Muslim outreach program, his name, where he grew up, the fact that his church was a big supporter of Ha mas,, and the fact that he has proven that he will say anything to get elected caused reasonable people to question weather or not he was actually a Christian or Muslim. Link to post Share on other sites
Zealous Donkey 0 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 No, he's saying that because people really didn't like Obama, they were latching onto anything that could possibly discredit him. I think.No I am saying there were more than a few reasons why people thought the things they did. Many people were suspicious of him because of those reasons, not because he was black. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Being a ****ing liar, secretive about his past, and actually not living in the United States and having a foreign father, and having a press corp which absolutely refuses to vet his candidacy caused a lot of people to at least entertain the notion that he wasn't born in this country. Actually slipping and saying he was of Muslim faith, turning NASA into a Muslim outreach program, his name, where he grew up, the fact that his church was a big supporter of Ha mas,, and the fact that he has proven that he will say anything to get elected caused reasonable people to question weather or not he was actually a Christian or Muslim.This all explains why you wouldn't like obama (not that I agree with all of it but whatever). None of this explains doubting the state of Hawaii or the US Dept of State. The credibility of Obama being a US citizen never rested on Obama. Nothing EVER existed/happened that made it "reasonable" to suspect Obama was not born in Hawaii. Ever. You are saying because Obama is deceptive and perhaps sympathetic towards Muslims or has a more international background than most.....that it is reasonable to believe that Hawaii and the US Dept of State went along with the lie that Obama was a US citizen for years, created a fake paper trail, planted stories in Hawaiian newspapers, etc........this is all NOT REASONABLE. End of story.Also being a Muslim would not make him less likely to be born here. Plenty of Muslims are born here/plenty (the majority) of Christians are not.Second also, why does everyone pretend Fox news is not part of the press corps? Link to post Share on other sites
timwakefield 68 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Actually slipping and saying he was of Muslim faithThat didn't happen. The suggestion that he said that was a ridiculously blatant lie created by simply editing out what he actually said. Obama: John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith, and you're absolutely right that that has not - Stephonopolous: Your Christian faith - Obama: My Christian faith...well what I'm saying is he hasn't suggested that I'm a Muslim.Bolded the part that was cut off. It's plain as day.and actually not living in the United States John McCain was born on August 29, 1936 at Coco Solo Naval Air Station in the Panama Canal Zone*, to naval officer John S. McCain, Jr. (1911–1981) and Roberta (Wright) McCain (b. 1912).[2] At that time, the Panama Canal was under U.S. control.[3]-----------------------------------------*The Panama Canal Zone (Spanish: Zona del Canal de Panamá) was a 553 square miles (1,430 km2) unorganized U.S. territory located within the Republic of Panama, consisting of the Panama Canal and an area generally extending 5 miles (8.1 km) on each side of the centerline, but excluding Panama City and Colón, which otherwise would have been partly within the limits of the Canal Zone.Seems suspicious! I'm being sarcastic! Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 I think the birther movement is only explainable by racism.But you just pulled that out of thin air because you don't like them. I could make an equivalent claim about OWS.Claim 1. Birther have to be racist.Claim 1. OWS has to be racist.Unsubstantiated, pulled from thin air.Claim 2. If birthers weren't racist, why weren't the protesting McCain?Claim 2. If OWS wasn't racist, why aren't they protesting the auto bailouts/corporate theft?Equivalent claims, neither holds water on closer inspectionClaim 3. Many birthers are racistClaim 3. Many OWSers are racist.I haven't seen racist birthers on tape, I have seen racist OWSers on tape.Claim 4. Racists are drawn to birther claimsClaim 4. Racists are drawn to OWSProbably, but so what?See where this is going? You can't possibly make the claim in one case and not the other without a major logical disconnect. It can only be through willful blindness. I used to think you were a clear thinker, but if you are seriously going to pretend the two cases are different, I rescind my respect.NOTE, just to be clear -- the birthers are nutcases, and I'm hopeful that OWS can do some good. But that is a separate issue from your blatant logical leaps here. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 I think the birther movement is only explainable by racism. I never said nor do I believe that makes the tea party racist. But, I do believe birthers are racist and the GOP has a lot of birthers.I also disagree we have any evidence of anti-semitism among actual ows protesters. Some of them attending a rally is not equivalent to numerous polls stating half of all GOP primary voters were birthers. I think to equate the two is the height of irrationality. You are making an equivalency between 50% of GOP voters and a few scattered people at a rally. And I'm being intellectually dishonest? Oh, and I notice how you are jumping between claims in your final paragraph: you are using your unsubstantiated claim (birthers are racist) to claim that 50% of GOPers are racist. You have to establish A before you can use A in a claim. So yes, you are being intellectually dishonest. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 Sorry Henry but the evidence is that some people have made anti-semitic remarks at OWS locations. That is all the evidence there is and just because somebody is using the publicity of the OWS location doesn't make them an OWSer like you're implying.I don't doubt thoughthat there is some anti-semetic sentiment amongst the people at OWS because a lot of them are the same people who protest against Isreal and for Palestine. I base this statement on me knowing who some of the people who support the OWS cause are.So what you're saying is that the large percentage of people who support the Tea Party and Republican Party who also are birthers are all morons and not racists ? I think it's pretty safe to say that they're one or the other or both. That doesn't mean that the subset of Tea Party supporters who aren't birthers are racists but since a significant percentage of the general population is racist to deny that racism exists within the Tea Party and the oppostion to Obama is laughable.I've tried to be quite clear that I don't think OWS is anti-semitic/racist, that a few crazed voices don't represent the whole. I'm just pointing out that when I tried to make that exact same claim a year ago, I had people jumping all over me for it -- and here you seem to be repeating it. You *assume* birthers are racist, and therefore, by extension, the tea party is racist. But I have more evidence of anti-semtism among OWSers than I've see for racism among birthers/tea partiers. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Isn't it funny, how the world we now live in expects us to ignore the truth?Like, a bunch of Muslims hijack some planes and crash them into buildings, but we can't mention they're Muslims...A bunch of Jews completely loot the country, but we can't point out the 'common theme' that exists with so many of the culprits. So, yeah. All muslims aren't terrorists, all Jews aren't bankers, but the broader implication is clear, even if we aren't allowed to talk about it.Do you know WHY Jews have historically taken blame for this stuff? Do you think all these different civilizations down through the ages drew ethnicities from a hat and Jews happened to get picked every ****ing time? The Jews in many countries were forbidden to own property because they were not Christian, were Christ-killers etc.As such they invested in education and became professionals. This way if and when they were kicked out of a country, they would be able to take something with them of value.The Christian Bible also tells us that a believer may not charge usary ( interest ) on a money loan to another Christian. So the Jews filled the gap of banker because they could charge interest. The result was that cities became indebted to bankers, and the economy began to sink, the easy target for the authorities was the Jews.So the people would ignore the politicians and or kings and blame those dirty Jews for making all the money. They would rise up, kick them out of their city, taking all their stuff ( except their education ) and forgiving their loans to themselves. The politicians would profit from the looting of the banks, and from the distraction created by blaming the Jews.Muslims, yea, they are mostly terrorist. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 So, being lberal would make him less likely to be born in America? Attending a church with an angry black pastor makes him more likely to be able to pull off a massive conspiracy? Knowing Bill Ayers makes him Kenyan?Uh... yeah. If you said, here are two people, one of them born in the US, the other not. One is a regular guy, loves the US, stays out of trouble. The other hangs out with anti-American radicals and hates the American system of free enterprise. Which one do you think was born outside the US?So yeah, if I were a conspiracy nut, his anti-American past would be high on the list of reasons to believe he was born outside the US.AGAIN NOTE: I think birthers are crazy, I'm pointing out why your logic is flawed, not why birthers are correct. Link to post Share on other sites
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