2012 Elections

[SilentSnow 1]

How about CBS then?Obama's impact on drilling will not show up in 'number of oil rigs pumping oil' for a couple years...after he is voted out.

Obama issued the moratorium because there was evidence of widespread corruption and deliberate disregard for safety regulations. Macondo never would have happened if the safety rules had been followed. Over the last 6 months deepwater drilling permits have been issued at the same rate they were before Macondo. http://www.platts.com/weblog/oilblog/2011/...gulators_i.htmlhttp://gnoinc.org/images/136.jpgAlso, you made one relevant claim in your last post- that "permits take 2-5 years to approve"Just looking at the graph makes this claim seem nonsensical. It's clear that drilling is very closely correlated with price, and the delay is only a year at most. Of course there is a lot more than just waiting for a permit that might cause a slight delay. http://www.energyeconomist.com/a6257783p/e...otaryworld.htmlJust to be sure I then tried looking up the permit process and immediately found this quote-"21. How long does it take to get a drilling permit?The Division issues most drilling permits within a week. By law, the Division must respond within 10 working days or the permit is automatically approved. Use permits from local agencies can take longer, depending on the local agency, and the level of environmental review required. For Kern County, the Division acts as CEQA lead agency, and wells drilled outside administrative field boundaries may require 30-60 days to permit."http://www.conservation.ca.gov/dog/faqs/Pa...x.aspx#how_longAt this point I'm not going to research any further since there is a 99% chance you are full of S***. But feel free to prove me wrong- give us solid evidence that the drilling approval process really takes 2-5 years and I will treat your future posts as maybe being slightly above that of a troll.

[Balloon guy 158]

Environmental impact reports.... you should be so lucky as to need one. Then talk about how it should take about a week...

[FCP Bob 1,312]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/20...t-swinging.htmlInterview with Jon Huntsman. Too bad somebody who is actually rational has little support in the Republican Party

[CaneBrain 95]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/20...t-swinging.htmlInterview with Jon Huntsman. Too bad somebody who is actually rational has little support in the Republican Party

I predict Huntsman will get the Arlen Spector treatment sometime within the next year or two.

[Balloon guy 158]

I predict Huntsman will get the Arlen Spector treatment sometime within the next year or two.

I know nothing about Huntsman, but if two liberals on this board think he would be great, then I know he would be a bad choice for our party.btw, why do you guys look into republicans so much? I mean I feel like most of you would say I am pretty political, yet I wouldn't spend 2 minutes looking into the democrat candidates because I don't care...It's weird how much you guys are into telling us who you think would be our best choice, especially when each of them is more democrat than republican.If you want a one party government, just go full communist and save your selves the hassle.

[vbnautilus 48]

btw, why do you guys look into republicans so much? I mean I feel like most of you would say I am pretty political, yet I wouldn't spend 2 minutes looking into the democrat candidates because I don't care...

I'm sure you never commented on Hillary vs. Obama in 2008.

[hblask 1]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/20...t-swinging.htmlInterview with Jon Huntsman. Too bad somebody who is actually rational has little support in the Republican Party

I haven't paid much attention to him, so I don't know if he is saying these things to carve himself a niche as "the centrist", or if he really believes it. I'll have to keep an eye on him.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I haven't paid much attention to him, so I don't know if he is saying these things to carve himself a niche as "the centrist", or if he really believes it. I'll have to keep an eye on him.

He's a smart guy who has seen a lot of the World.Governor of Utah, Ambassador to China, he speaks Chinese fluently.He's smart enough to not believe some of the stupid things that appeal to the idiot wing of the Republican base and has too much personal integrity to pander to them.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

He's a smart guy who has seen a lot of the World.Governor of Utah, Ambassador to China, he speaks Chinese fluently.He's smart enough to not believe some of the stupid things that appeal to the idiot wing of the Republican base and has too much personal integrity to pander to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Huntsman,_Jr.Jon Meade Huntsman, Jr. (born March 26, 1960) is an American politician who served as the 16th Governor of Utah. He also served in the administrations of four United States presidents and is a candidate for the 2012 Republican presidential nomination.[1] Huntsman is the son of Jon Huntsman, Sr. and Karen Haight Huntsman, and was raised in Palo Alto, California. He participated in the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) as a youth and earned the organization's highest rank, Eagle Scout, at age 15. He served as a Mormon missionary for two years in Taiwan and graduated from the University of Pennsylvania with a bachelor's degree in international politics. Huntsman worked as a White House staff assistant for Ronald Reagan, and he was appointed by George H.W. Bush as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Commerce and later as United States Ambassador to Singapore from 1992–1993. Huntsman served as Deputy United States Trade Representative under George W. Bush, launching global trade negotiations in Doha, Qatar in 2001 and guiding the accession of China and Taiwan into the World Trade Organization. Huntsman was elected Governor of Utah in April, 2004 and won re-election in 2008 with nearly 78% of the vote. During his tenure, Huntsman cut taxes by more than $400 million—the largest tax cut in the state's history—while still maintaining a budget surplus and Utah was named the "Best Managed State in America" by Pew Research Center. While governor, he also served as chairman of the Western Governors Association and as a member of the Executive Committee of the National Governors Association. On August 11, 2009, he resigned as governor to accept an appointment as the United States Ambassador to China. Huntsman has received six honorary doctorate degrees, and in 2007 he was awarded the Distinguished Eagle Scout Award by the BSA. He is a founding director of the Pacific Council on International Policy and has served on the boards of the Brookings Institution Asia Policy Board, the Asia Society in New York, and the National Bureau of Asian Research. Huntsman is married to Mary Kaye Huntsman, and they are the parents of seven children, including two adopted girls—one from China and the other from India.Edit: I like this about his Billionaire Father.

Once an acknowledged member of the Forbes 400, where he was ranked the 47th richest man alive, Mr. Huntsman's current wealth is not disclosed. His intention, however, is "to die broke," having donated his fortune to cancer research and the effort to eradicate the disease from the face of the earth.

[Balloon guy 158]

He's a smart guy who has seen a lot of the World.Governor of Utah, Ambassador to China, he speaks Chinese fluently.He's smart enough to not believe some of the stupid things that appeal to the idiot wing of the Republican base and has too much personal integrity to pander to them.

And he's a mormon?You know that mormon's teach that when he dies, he will meet Joseph Smith and if he knows the secret hand shake he will be given a new planet, 10,000 wives, and become the god of this new planet?He also believes that Joey Smith met a space alien from the planet Kolob who gave him the golden tablets that he translated into the book of mormon.He also believes that at the temple rituals he is responsible to perform ceremonies to raise his ancestors from the dead and convert them to mormonism, (that's why mormons are so into genealogy.)I mean, unless is is lying about his mormon faith, because that is the teaching of the church. And he does attend his mormon church since being the governor and ambassador to China.If Rick Perry's faith is enough reason to discount his political ideas, then I just want you to have an equal picture of Huntsman.Just curious if their personal beliefs are actually what you guys are against..or their conservatism.

[85suited 0]

And he's a mormon?You know that mormon's teach that when he dies, he will meet Joseph Smith and if he knows the secret hand shake he will be given a new planet, 10,000 wives, and become the god of this new planet?He also believes that Joey Smith met a space alien from the planet Kolob who gave him the golden tablets that he translated into the book of mormon.He also believes that at the temple rituals he is responsible to perform ceremonies to raise his ancestors from the dead and convert them to mormonism, (that's why mormons are so into genealogy.)I mean, unless is is lying about his mormon faith, because that is the teaching of the church. And he does attend his mormon church since being the governor and ambassador to China.If Rick Perry's faith is enough reason to discount his political ideas, then I just want you to have an equal picture of Huntsman.Just curious if their personal beliefs are actually what you guys are against..or their conservatism.

He also has magic underwear

[Moneyball16 0]

And he's a mormon?You know that mormon's teach that when he dies, he will meet Joseph Smith and if he knows the secret hand shake he will be given a new planet, 10,000 wives, and become the god of this new planet?He also believes that Joey Smith met a space alien from the planet Kolob who gave him the golden tablets that he translated into the book of mormon.He also believes that at the temple rituals he is responsible to perform ceremonies to raise his ancestors from the dead and convert them to mormonism, (that's why mormons are so into genealogy.)I mean, unless is is lying about his mormon faith, because that is the teaching of the church. And he does attend his mormon church since being the governor and ambassador to China.If Rick Perry's faith is enough reason to discount his political ideas, then I just want you to have an equal picture of Huntsman.Just curious if their personal beliefs are actually what you guys are against..or their conservatism.

Meh all religions are equally crazy imo, Mormonism is just newer so there has been less time for the crazy to become more mainstream or normal. Some religions are more harmful than others(Id say that Mormonism is about as harmful as being an Evanglical, basically only behind Islam in terms of the larger more prominent religions), but they all seem nutty. From what it seems his religion will not negatively get in the way as much as most of the other candidates that have what most people would consider less radical religious beliefs.The Huntsman interview was short, but he gave great answers, seems to have very good qualifications and If I was eligible Id definitely strongly consider voting for him over Obama.

[Balloon guy 158]

Meh all religions are equally crazy imo, Mormonism is just newer so there has been less time for the crazy to become more mainstream or normal. Some religions are more harmful than others(Id say that Mormonism is about as harmful as being an Evanglical, basically only behind Islam in terms of the larger more prominent religions), but they all seem nutty. From what it seems his religion will not negatively get in the way as much as most of the other candidates that have what most people would consider less radical religious beliefs.The Huntsman interview was short, but he gave great answers, seems to have very good qualifications and If I was eligible Id definitely strongly consider voting for him over Obama.

From what it seems his religion will not negatively get in the way...???How do you make this determination?Because he is more liberal in his views? So it really gets back to the fact you guys are willing to ignore a person who claims to be a Christian / mormon whatever, as long as he supports liberal policies, but if he doesn't support liberal policies, then his religion is reason to hate him and mock him.That's why I don't listen to your guy's opinion about republican candidates, you don't use rational thought in your judgement. You forgive lying and hypocrisy as long as he's got a liberal bent to his message. which is hilarious to me. "It's okay to live a double life if your belief is that there is no God"If a man goes on a 2 year mission, spends his whole life in a church, continues to attend throughout his adult life and claims that he doesn't really believe, than he is just another politician who is comfortable lying to get elected in a mormon state. If he doesn't believe in God, but attends church, then he is either a weak willed whipped wimp, or comfortable being two faced. If he believes in his religion, but is comfortable ignoring it when it comes to leading the people, then he is a spineless nobody. Funny thing about me, I don't think a person who lies, deceives, misleads, or is comfortable being a hypocrite is a good choice to lead our country . You guys are okay with it I guess. You already have your candidate who did this though, so why are you trying to talk us into getting one just like yours? You see how bad he's been?

[Moneyball16 0]

This has nothing to do with lying and hypocrisy. If anything I feel like Huntsman is more honest cause he isn't pandering to the Religious Right like Perry is even though it will likely hurt him in the primary. You can believe in God and still understand science. Its just not something that I would typically associate as much with someone from such a conservative faith so that when a Mormon candidate comes along and seems to grasp science its refreshing and surprising to me. And in terms of mocking religious beliefs I don't care about any liberal bent or whatever I just have a lot more intellectual respect for Christians that aren't science deniers.Are you really this much of a contrarian that you have to argue with people even when we are saying nice things about members of your party? And with me being an independent you should definitely be worried about the opinion of people like me when it comes to the GOP candidates. You guys will need some independents to vote for your nominee if you want a Republican to be President. Someone like Huntsman might not represent your beliefs as well as many of the other candidates, but he might be an easier sell up against Obama and that should be something all Republicans should be thinking about when deciding who there nominee will be.

[mrdannyg 274]

And he's a mormon?You know that mormon's teach that when he dies, he will meet Joseph Smith and if he knows the secret hand shake he will be given a new planet, 10,000 wives, and become the god of this new planet?He also believes that Joey Smith met a space alien from the planet Kolob who gave him the golden tablets that he translated into the book of mormon.He also believes that at the temple rituals he is responsible to perform ceremonies to raise his ancestors from the dead and convert them to mormonism, (that's why mormons are so into genealogy.)I mean, unless is is lying about his mormon faith, because that is the teaching of the church. And he does attend his mormon church since being the governor and ambassador to China.If Rick Perry's faith is enough reason to discount his political ideas, then I just want you to have an equal picture of Huntsman.Just curious if their personal beliefs are actually what you guys are against..or their conservatism.

I agree with your future posts. I believe all religions are somewhat crazy. Well, pretty crazy actually. And maybe it is just because it is 'newer' and so a higher percentage of people believe in it fundamentally, but Mormonism is far crazier than other mainstream religions.I also believe that someone being a Mormon missionary at 16, and still attending church does not mean he believes in it in any significant way. If he does, then he is a non-option in my opinion, in the same way that someone (Bachmann) who firmly believes that she is required to be submissive to another person cannot be in a position of power.If he doesn't believe in it fundamentally, that does not make him a liar about his faith.

[Balloon guy 158]

This has nothing to do with lying and hypocrisy. If anything I feel like Huntsman is more honest cause he isn't pandering to the Religious Right like Perry is even though it will likely hurt him in the primary. You can believe in God and still understand science. Its just not something that I would typically associate as much with someone from such a conservative faith so that when a Mormon candidate comes along and seems to grasp science its refreshing and surprising to me. And in terms of mocking religious beliefs I don't care about any liberal bent or whatever I just have a lot more intellectual respect for Christians that aren't science deniers.

You have created a straw man that the normal medium for Christians is to not understand science. You would be false there. What you mean is we don't agree with your take on science. Salk didn't find the polio vaccine because he was a Christian, but he used science as a Christian. We could go all day listing the accomplishments of Christians in the science field, or medical education, politics, etc.Just as some atheist are not buying the man-made global warming thing does not mean that they understand or don't understand science, it means they don't agree with man-made global warming.And you really poison the argument with your line :

I feel like Huntsman is more honest cause he isn't pandering to the Religious Right like Perry is

. You are saying that Huntsman does believe in his religion, but is not going to use that belief. That is incredible for you to make the assumption that you understand the motives of a man you have probably never met. Especially when you consider he talks about doing his 2 year mission, and more importantly uses his 'mormon faith' to get himself elected to the Utah Governor's house. If he came out and said I am a Scientologist, but I do not go to many meetings anymore, just on weekends and stuff. You are okay as long as he doesn't disagree with you on evolution? You've already said you think all religion is equally crazy ( which is silly ), yet you are saying a man who lays claim to being a follower of one religion isn't going to have that affect him because he said he believes in evolution. So a long as he is an evolutionist, you will be okay with him wanting to bring back prayer in school? Because that is a mormon desire.

Are you really this much of a contrarian that you have to argue with people even when we are saying nice things about members of your party? And with me being an independent you should definitely be worried about the opinion of people like me when it comes to the GOP candidates. You guys will need some independents to vote for your nominee if you want a Republican to be President. Someone like Huntsman might not represent your beliefs as well as many of the other candidates, but he might be an easier sell up against Obama and that should be something all Republicans should be thinking about when deciding who there nominee will be.

Actually the independent vote is way overrated. And you are just repeating the democrat lie that has permeated the political landscape. This insane notion that the country wants Republicans to be closer to Democrats in their method of governing. That is so wrong its not funny.We ran McCain, the most centrist, democrat like member of our party, and he was blah blah loser.Then we ran conservatives with Tea Party supporters and we took 600 seats from the Democrats.Why would we ever want to go back to more McCains when they lose?And why would we want to stop following the game plan that won us more seats then anyone ever has in the history of the country?And telling a candidate to not use his Faith in a campaign in a country that 80+% of believe in God, is really blind."Hey Jimmy, almost everyone you meet will believe in X, and you believe in X, but don't mention that in the election because there are 4 people who we don't know how they believe and the other side has told us we need their votes (because they want to help us)"Its all moot, Huntsman will never go anywhere.The funny thing though would be how quickly you guys would turn on him as soon as he is the Republican candidate, just like McCain.

[Balloon guy 158]

I agree with your future posts. I believe all religions are somewhat crazy. Well, pretty crazy actually. And maybe it is just because it is 'newer' and so a higher percentage of people believe in it fundamentally, but Mormonism is far crazier than other mainstream religions.I also believe that someone being a Mormon missionary at 16, and still attending church does not mean he believes in it in any significant way. If he does, then he is a non-option in my opinion, in the same way that someone (Bachmann) who firmly believes that she is required to be submissive to another person cannot be in a position of power.If he doesn't believe in it fundamentally, that does not make him a liar about his faith.

I know mormons who don't know what their church teaches, because only 10% of mormons actually participate in the temple ceremonies ( you have to be invited). I have had to educate mormons when I've talked to them. So yes, it is possible he is just using the mormon church attendance as a political ploy to get elected in Utah, pretty much a requirement.I do not see how you guys don't see that as lowest common denominator of political pandering that there is.I guess if we find out he cheated on his wife you guys will say he's not a hypocrite like most republicans because he doesn't really believe in family values like they did. It's all just a distraction though, Huntsman will go nowhere.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

I know mormons who don't know what their church teaches, because only 10% of mormons actually participate in the temple ceremonies ( you have to be invited). I have had to educate mormons when I've talked to them.

You're not a Mormon. Why should Mormon's have to listen to or take education from someone who is not even a member of their faith? I think they'll get all the information they need from other Mormons who think like they do.

[Balloon guy 158]

You're not a Mormon. Why should Mormon's have to listen to or take education from someone who is not even a member of their faith? I think they'll get all the information they need from other Mormons who think like they do.

I see what you did there. But I wasn't trying to tell him how he needs to change his church to better represent my church though...

[Balloon guy 158]

Lets look at history:Bush I vs Clinton: Bush was confronted with his "Read my lips, no new taxes" pledge and his signing into law the removal of tax write offs for vacation homes, which technically isn't a new tax, however it was used against him effectively. The result of that little gem the democrats introduced was the collapse of the savings and loan industry and a pull back of the economy for years. So the democrats accused him of signing into law a bill they produced, they used as a campaign slogan that Bush I was willing to sign into law a bill they introduced. i.e. He was willing to act like a democrat.Clinton vs Dole: Dole was a relatively conservative man, but his years in the Senate worked against him. The Republican party also for the first time in 50 years took over control of the house during the mid term elections. Their ability to shape the budget much more than anytime in the past was a positive for the economy. Contrast that with Clinton, a guy who ran liberal and moved towards the right after elected, who also was lucky enough to be the guy in charge when the internet was coming online and a huge new revenue stream made everyone wealthy. So Clinton moved closer to the right, and benefited from a republican congress ( arguable whether this applies )W. Bush vs Algore: Bush was very clear ab out his faith, about his conservatism etc. Algore had the benefit of a strong economy ( although actually it started to fall before Clinton took office and continued deep into Bush's presidency ) Algore had everything and he ran as Ultra-liberal, champion of the planet and the lockbox.Bush beat him in a tight race, running as a conservative Christian against a ultra liberal VP of a popular president. So this was probably the clearest example of right wing vs left wing with tons of advantages given to the left and they lost.Bush vs Kerry: Kerry, big leftie, ran as leftie against an arguably unpopular president. Bush maintained his conservative and Christian stances, did not move center.Bush won easily.McCain vs Obama:McCain, the most centrist republican in the party, loved by the press as the most centrist, willing to stand up against the conservatives in his party. His campaign was a stalled mess going nowhere until he added Palin, who was much much more religious conservative. Obama was a liberal, who used his church membership to say he believed in Jesus Christ to overcome his unfortunate name.So the last 5 elections for president show us that republicans who are closer to the center lose. That democrats need to hide their liberalism, and that conservatism with a religious leaning is the winning formula.Now tell me again why we should look again at Huntsman?

[mrdannyg 274]

I know mormons who don't know what their church teaches, because only 10% of mormons actually participate in the temple ceremonies ( you have to be invited). I have had to educate mormons when I've talked to them. So yes, it is possible he is just using the mormon church attendance as a political ploy to get elected in Utah, pretty much a requirement.I do not see how you guys don't see that as lowest common denominator of political pandering that there is.

What? People attend religious institutions for a lot of reasons. Family, community, whatever. The fact that he would attend a mormon church without necessarily believing all their crazy is not (necessarily) a "political ploy".Others don't see that as the lowest common denominator because we don't feel the need to accuse people of the worst things their actions might vaguely imply if we don't agree with them.I agree with everything you're saying about centrists and the independent vote. Last I checked, 100% of republicans don't vote. Neither do 100% of liberals. There are a lot more non-voting people who agree with a certain party in any given election than independents that can be swayed. Motivating the lazy vote to get out there is more valuable than convincing a bunch of independents.

[Balloon guy 158]

Others don't see that as the lowest common denominator because we don't feel the need to accuse people of the worst things their actions might vaguely imply if we don't agree with them.

You mean like Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, and Rick Perry?They are not being viewed in the worst light because of their faith?Cause I think you are either missing the elephant in the room, or you do not associate yourself with the leftist democrats on this forum. To be honest I don't really have you pigeon-holed as a empty headed liberal yet, I am letting your actions and words speak for you, and so far it seems you are just a regular guy who can take a joke and dish it out. I like you. This will probably not help you, sorry.

[mrdannyg 274]

You mean like Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, and Rick Perry?They are not being viewed in the worst light because of their faith?Cause I think you are either missing the elephant in the room, or you do not associate yourself with the leftist democrats on this forum. To be honest I don't really have you pigeon-holed as a empty headed liberal yet, I am letting your actions and words speak for you, and so far it seems you are just a regular guy who can take a joke and dish it out. I like you. This will probably not help you, sorry.

I like you too. What you said about the Mormon isn't the same as the 3 above though. It's more like the opposite, since those 3 are being questioned as to how their religious beliefs (that they explicitly advise of) will affect their judgment. In the Mormon's case, he (to my knowledge), has not explicitly stated he will govern according to mormon craziness, you're just assuming he will because he goes to crazy church and was a crazy missionary 100 years ago.If he came out and said he was a strict mormon, and would govern according to mormon principles, most would agree he is both crazier and more dangerous than the Christians.

[Balloon guy 158]

I like you too. What you said about the Mormon isn't the same as the 3 above though. It's more like the opposite, since those 3 are being questioned as to how their religious beliefs (that they explicitly advise of) will affect their judgment. In the Mormon's case, he (to my knowledge), has not explicitly stated he will govern according to mormon craziness, you're just assuming he will because he goes to crazy church and was a crazy missionary 100 years ago.If he came out and said he was a strict mormon, and would govern according to mormon principles, most would agree he is both crazier and more dangerous than the Christians.

So he has not been asked if he will obey the prophet or 12 apostles which his church demands of all practicing mormons obey?Why do you think his religious connections are being excluded from his questions? Or I should say, his current questions, because 100% guarantee that he will be McCain'ed if he gets the nomination. The questions will stop being softballs and will turn stupid on him, just like they are now on the 3 I mentioned.

[mrdannyg 274]

So he has not been asked if he will obey the prophet or 12 apostles which his church demands of all practicing mormons obey?Why do you think his religious connections are being excluded from his questions? Or I should say, his current questions, because 100% guarantee that he will be McCain'ed if he gets the nomination. The questions will stop being softballs and will turn stupid on him, just like they are now on the 3 I mentioned.

I think if someone chooses to strictly follow religion, and specify it is part of their decision-making process, then they need to provide clarity to non-believers as to how that decision-making process will take place.If someone believes that the opinions of their spouse, pastor, or space monster in the sky override theirs, then that is a problem. I appreciate that in reality, those people do not let other's opinion override their own, even if they are required to be 'submissive.' So say that. If you can believe in something that says it one way, but you do it another way, then tell us how you rationalize that, because you obviously do.I think the Mormon guy should be asked how fundamentally he believes in the mormony stuff. If it is very much so, then I hope people ask him how he will reconcile those beliefs.