Rock Beyond Belief

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

Do you think what he said is interesting or thought-provoking in any way? It seems like a pretty stupid argument in my opinion.

Aside from the fact that Harris' second sentence is an unfair manipulation of his first, I think his point is well said.

[Balloon guy 158]

Do you think what he said is interesting or thought-provoking in any way? It seems like a pretty stupid argument in my opinion.

Straw man arguments usually are.First, he decides that there are a limited number of options, and he lists them, then begins to tear them down.Then he declares victory and tries to sell a book.God can also allow catastrophes because He placed laws in place, physical laws that help us as well as sometimes hurt us.Man builds a house in a flood zone, is it really God's fault the house flooded?Man builds a high rise near a fault line, is it God's fault the earthquake brings down the building?Man chooses to drink and drive and kills some innocent people, is God supposed to prevent the man from driving? What about making it so man can't get drunk? How about have angels on duty to herd the car somewhere else? Isn't the responsibility on the drunk driver. 100% of the responsibility?Of course all this forgets that this is not the earth God intended for us. We were made for a perfect world, but chose to allow sin to enter and corrupt the creation. With decay and death comes horrible incidents. We bring most of them on ourselves.Blaming god for all the bad, while giving random chance and natural selection all the credit for the good, is petty and short sighted.and if you believe Algore, man is responsible for the weather now, ala climate change. so talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[Balloon guy 158]

Okay, I suppose we have a ittle different interpretations of what went on in that book. I actually really enjoyed it. The first thing that struck me was that all the good stuff happened in the first couple chapters. I mean, I knew of the basic story but then it all happened so fast I was wondering what the hell was going to take place in the rest of the book? You seem to kind of view the book as, "When bad things happen to good people" kinda story and you portray it as God showing some amazing love by giving Job 3 times what he lost and all. Nothing like that was ever said in the entire book of Job though. It never says anywhere that God was amazing, or altruistic or good or anything like that. But, let's review a little here.If God was so amazing and a such a good guy why would he torture someone like that? Someone he supposedly loved? By all accounts Job was the most righteous dude on earth. Would you do this to your kids? Your wife? I mean, God did. And after he set about the torture of Job, he dissapeared for the next 36 CHAPTERS!. And the important part to you was God's response to Job for questioning all the torture God put him through. Really? God's response was to be a bully. The way he won the arguement was to simply act like an all-powerful principle, master, CEO, or dictator, (take your pick), that suspends his student, or kicks them out of the boardroom, or sends them away and says, "I am all powerful how dare you question me!" Umm, I am questioning your ass because you just spent the last 38 chapters torturing my ass for no goddam reason!! WTF kinda arguement is that? You created moons? Answer my goddam question!But, I suppose God didn't want to respond in a rational manner, because, well, it wouldn't make him look that hot. So back to why he did it. God met with Satan on two occasions. The first he was incited into giving Satan power over anyone and everything under or connected to Job. The second meeting, God was incited (and that is the correct word, I checked), into giving Satan power over Job as well, as long as he didn't kill him. So basically, the Lord was susceptible to suggestions from other what, celestial beings? It never really said who Satan was. But given what we know about Satan, God is obviously susceptible to demons and temptation. So why did God do this? Job 2:3 You incited me against [Job] to ruin him without reason. WITHOUT REASON! That's why God tortured Job, for no good goddam reason!! Does any of this sound familiar? Remember Genesis 3:12-13? God went ape shit on Adam and Eve for this little faux pas. You know, being tempted by satan and all? I mean he sent man from paradise for this little offense yet he isn't any better than dimwitted Adam! So God twice gave into Satan to ruin Job for no good purpose or cause. It never once says in the entire book that God was testing Job's faith. He did it because Satan enticed him into doing it. He let him torture the nicest guy on the planet, for what, a bet? Seriously? And then he goes off on him for even questioning him. I'll give it to the writer though for bringing Job ever so close to the brink by all kinds of new inventive inhumane torture, but Job never does go so far as to "denounce" God. Job, was the much better person in the story by far. God was a bully dolt.

You get some weird stuff when you read the Bible.The ramifications of what satan was saying was that he now ruled the earth, and God no longer had any right to place any restrictions on him. That was the meaning of satan's statement that he was walking to and fro over ALL the earth.God didn't make satan do anything, satan challenged God and God pointed to proof that satan was wrong i.e. Job.Satan demanded free access to show God to be wrong, and God limited what he could do.When it was over, satan lost and God won.Then God made the point that the clay is not to question the potter.

[SuitedAces21 2,723]

Do you think what he said is interesting or thought-provoking in any way? It seems like a pretty stupid argument in my opinion.

i'd really like to hear what you think is "pretty stupid" about it.

[Roll the Bones 74]

Damn you BG! I have to finish!Okay, so you mentioned Job's friends and God getting mad at them and somehow "filtering" everything that happens to Job. The only filter I can tell was that God didn't let Satan kill him. But as Job is puzzling through all the misery as to why a "just" God would be so unjust his friends broke to down like this, 1. Job's friends basically said, "God is just, always and everywhere".2. God rewards good people with success.3. Job was stripped of his rewards. Thus, 4. Job is not a good person.Given that this is what God has told everyone all along, I can't fault them for their reasoning.Job contemplates their explanation of this whole strategy...4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.8:3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert what is right? 8:5 If thou wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty; 8:6 If thou wert pure and upright; surely now he would awake for thee, and make the habitation of thy righteousness prosperous.In other words, "It must be your fault". Job is slowly catching on though,7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.In other words, why are you doing this, without reason?9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause. 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness. 9:19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead? In other words, If I can't sue God, who can I sue? Then Job has the chilling realization that, 9:20 though I am blameless, God will declare me guilty.Job is learning that this whole thing isn't about "justice" it's about "power", and well, Job is screwed before he even got started because, you know, God has all the power. Job even surmises that though he is totally blameless, God will lie and blame him of doing something. And he is powerless to stop it. The lesson is, "Might makes right". I can't help but think of the basketball tourney going on and how everyone watches to root for the underdog. Job was like the Richmond Spiders. You just have to root for them and all the underdogs. And this really gets me to one of the reasons I read the bible again. It's as if everyone that runs around quoting it and pointing to it has never actually read it yet take it as the literal truth. I mean it's fascinating stuff. I would encourage any Christian to actually read it. It's about a guy howling at the injustice of the world and the root of the whole problem is you know, GOD! It amazes me that Christians read this and seem to gloss over all the stuff that happens. I seriously don't see any defense for God doing any of this. Poor Job, 9:20 though I am blameless, God will declare me guilty.So, after all the stuff God puts Job through, like I said, God finally shows up and goes on and on and on for FOUR chapters bitching up a storm at Job for questioning his "moon-creating awesomness". But in all that God does not once offer up an explanation for what he did. Not one reason. He simply blasts on and on about his all powerful self and scream at Job for even questioning his motive! You know the motive that was, "I have no reason for doing it." Not one plausible excuse for torturing an innocent man endlessly and without cause. God actually confirms what Job was suspecting early, that "might makes right" by telling him this over and over. Geez, lesson learned dude! You got the power, you can be a total dick and I can't do anything about it! God even has the nerve to tell him that only if Job can do all the things that God can do, will he even take him serious. How fair is that!? He taunts Job,40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.God says, "Bury them all in the earth, hide their faces in obscurity, then even I would praise you for the triumph your right hand won you". Then God does a little end zone dance and says, "Show me the money!" "Put up or shut up!"You know, Job never questioned God's power though, it was God's "justice" that he was questioning. If God was so all powerful why couldn't he grasp that simple concept? To Job, the reason he was worshipping God in the first place was twofold, God had power and justice. I mean what is God with one but not the other? Why would you worship someone that had one but not the other?So for four chapters God basically tells Job, I did it because I can and wanted to and if you have a problem with that I won't even listen to you unless you can show you carry a big as stick as I do, and until then, tough toenails, you schmuck.And then, the part that I couldn't decide was sad or funny, but had to make me laugh, Job simply gives up. I mean, we've all done this when arguing with a superior even if we know that superior is totally wrong. I mean he has nothing to gain from arguing with someone who is a brute and holds all the cards. He just shuts up and tells him as much.40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no furtherJob waves the white flag and then God pumps his fist and yells running through the heavens, GAME. SET. MATCH! hahahahahahahaha

[Roll the Bones 74]

Do you think what he said is interesting or thought-provoking in any way? It seems like a pretty stupid argument in my opinion.

I'm not sure what you're saying. It isn't thought provoking to me, as it's something that I would have said as well. To someone unfamiliar with Harris or athiesm it might be thought provoking. Why do you think it's a stupid argument?

[Balloon guy 158]

Damn you BG! I have to finish!Okay, so you mentioned Job's friends and God getting mad at them and somehow "filtering" everything that happens to Job. The only filter I can tell was that God didn't let Satan kill him. But as Job is puzzling through all the misery as to why a "just" God would be so unjust his friends broke to down like this, 1. Job's friends basically said, "God is just, always and everywhere".2. God rewards good people with success.3. Job was stripped of his rewards. Thus, 4. Job is not a good person.

This is the normal human expectation of things. God would never allow anything bad to happen to me because I am a decent person. Something bad happened to so and so? Then he must be somehow responsible.

Given that this is what God has told everyone all along, I can't fault them for their reasoning.

Not true

Job contemplates their explanation of this whole strategy...4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.8:3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert what is right? 8:5 If thou wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty; 8:6 If thou wert pure and upright; surely now he would awake for thee, and make the habitation of thy righteousness prosperous.In other words, "It must be your fault". Job is slowly catching on though,7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.In other words, why are you doing this, without reason?9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause. 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness. 9:19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead? In other words, If I can't sue God, who can I sue? Then Job has the chilling realization that, 9:20 though I am blameless, God will declare me guilty.

Job's sorrows are great, anyone who has suffered knows that during the time of suffering, we lash out in anger, we deny, we bargain, then we accept. Normal human response here, not a treatise on how things are.

Job is learning that this whole thing isn't about "justice" it's about "power", and well, Job is screwed before he even got started because, you know, God has all the power. Job even surmises that though he is totally blameless, God will lie and blame him of doing something. And he is powerless to stop it. The lesson is, "Might makes right". I can't help but think of the basketball tourney going on and how everyone watches to root for the underdog. Job was like the Richmond Spiders. You just have to root for them and all the underdogs.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of God's power. God's power isn't man power, one that needs to be shown etc. God's power is based on God's righteousness, or His right to choose and decide everything. Later Job would learn this when God first slams his buddies who try to justify their shallow understanding of God by saying Job must somehow be at fault.Incidentally, Job here is talking to his friends in these verses, friends who just got finished telling Job that he must be at fault. This isn't Job speaking to God, or to the reader, he is answering his friends shallow understanding with his own shallow understanding.

And this really gets me to one of the reasons I read the bible again. It's as if everyone that runs around quoting it and pointing to it has never actually read it yet take it as the literal truth. I mean it's fascinating stuff. I would encourage any Christian to actually read it. It's about a guy howling at the injustice of the world and the root of the whole problem is you know, GOD! It amazes me that Christians read this and seem to gloss over all the stuff that happens. I seriously don't see any defense for God doing any of this. Poor Job, 9:20 though I am blameless, God will declare me guilty.

I'm going to go out on a limb and not do an internet search and declare that many Christians do in fact read the Bible. And while you see a glossing over, many of them struggle and search and come away with answers if they are open and honest in their dealings. I know its been true in my case.

So, after all the stuff God puts Job through, like I said, God finally shows up and goes on and on and on for FOUR chapters bitching up a storm at Job for questioning his "moon-creating awesomness". But in all that God does not once offer up an explanation for what he did. Not one reason. He simply blasts on and on about his all powerful self and scream at Job for even questioning his motive! You know the motive that was, "I have no reason for doing it." Not one plausible excuse for torturing an innocent man endlessly and without cause. God actually confirms what Job was suspecting early, that "might makes right" by telling him this over and over. Geez, lesson learned dude! You got the power, you can be a total dick and I can't do anything about it! God even has the nerve to tell him that only if Job can do all the things that God can do, will he even take him serious. How fair is that!? He taunts Job,

Again, you have too small a view of who God is. God isn't a big one of us that we can reason with, nor a man that figured things out and now sits on high. He is God, His ways are not our ways, His thoughts not our thoughts. To place a burden of being responsible to answer to us for His decisions isn't one based on any logic, its based on a deep misunderstanding of what it means to be a created being.

40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.God says, "Bury them all in the earth, hide their faces in obscurity, then even I would praise you for the triumph your right hand won you". Then God does a little end zone dance and says, "Show me the money!" "Put up or shut up!"You know, Job never questioned God's power though, it was God's "justice" that he was questioning. If God was so all powerful why couldn't he grasp that simple concept? To Job, the reason he was worshipping God in the first place was twofold, God had power and justice. I mean what is God with one but not the other? Why would you worship someone that had one but not the other?

If you are looking for the answers, why do you demand to have the right to declare yourself equal to God?

So for four chapters God basically tells Job, I did it because I can and wanted to and if you have a problem with that I won't even listen to you unless you can show you carry a big as stick as I do, and until then, tough toenails, you schmuck.And then, the part that I couldn't decide was sad or funny, but had to make me laugh, Job simply gives up. I mean, we've all done this when arguing with a superior even if we know that superior is totally wrong. I mean he has nothing to gain from arguing with someone who is a brute and holds all the cards. He just shuts up and tells him as much.40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no furtherJob waves the white flag and then God pumps his fist and yells running through the heavens, GAME. SET. MATCH! hahahahahahahaha

Because when you make God just a bigger one of you, then of course God would have petty emotions and be on an ego trip.The problem Randy, is that your God is too smallThis book will give you a much better understanding of the difference between a make believe god, and the God Almighty.

[Balloon guy 158]

Yeah it's funny I just learned this today, was looking into some background on the whole Jalen Rose/Grant Hill situation. Seemed like the book character has nothing to do with how people use the phrase today.

I felt this way when I learned that Rosa Parks wasn't some old black woman on a bus, she was an activist who set out to purposefully start a situation.And when I found out that Planned Parenthood was founded by a nazi sympathizing racist who wanted to control the blacks by making them get abortions.

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

I'm not sure what you're saying. It isn't thought provoking to me, as it's something that I would have said as well. To someone unfamiliar with Harris or athiesm it might be thought provoking. Why do you think it's a stupid argument?

Aside from the fact that Harris' second sentence is an unfair manipulation of his first, I think his point is well said.

i'd really like to hear what you think is "pretty stupid" about it.

Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely.The first and third options make no sense. By definition God can never be impotent. The third option, imaginary, is only there as a way to say that if you don't think God is evil, then he doesn't exist because he must be evil if he does exist...wait, I think I passed my starting point.So what about that second option, that God is evil because he allows something like this to happen? "Dear God, stop telling me how to live my life, but could you go ahead and make sure nothing really bad happens to me?" Anyway, the formula seems to be "God allows X people to suffer = evil." What is X? Is God evil because anything bad happens? I'd like to understand this point better.The only sense to make of tragedies like this is that terrible things can happen to perfectly innocent people. This understanding inspires compassion.Religious faith, on the other hand, erodes compassion. Thoughts like, “this might be all part of God’s plan,” or “there are no accidents in life,” or “everyone on some level gets what he or she deserves” - these ideas are not only stupid, they are extraordinarily callous. They are nothing more than a childish refusal to connect with the suffering of other human beings. It is time to grow up and let our hearts break at moments like this.Why does believing that horrible things might happen for a reason preclude compassion? "I just had major open heart surgery.""Yeah, but you would've died without it. Stop being such a baby."Does that conversation exist anywhere in the world? He lumps "gets what he deserves" in with "God's plan" so he can group the absurd extremists in with normal Christians. And except for the extreme absurdists, I haven't seen any evidence that believing in "God's plan" hardens hearts or erodes compassion. He's just making shit up.

[Roll the Bones 74]

You get some weird stuff when you read the Bible.The ramifications of what satan was saying was that he now ruled the earth, and God no longer had any right to place any restrictions on him. That was the meaning of satan's statement that he was walking to and fro over ALL the earth.God didn't make satan do anything, satan challenged God and God pointed to proof that satan was wrong i.e. Job.Satan demanded free access to show God to be wrong, and God limited what he could do.When it was over, satan lost and God won.Then God made the point that the clay is not to question the potter.

It's not weird. It's what you'd expect from a book trying to retell history from word of mouth, and written by mulitiple writers over eons, but it is pretty good stuff. The Old Testament is the foundation for so many modern movies and books it's like a treasure trove. But you made my point. God and Satan bet. God won. Job suffered for no reason. God's response was, Might beats right. That was the story. making it anything else is just weird.

[Roll the Bones 74]

Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely.The first and third options make no sense. By definition God can never be impotent. The third option, imaginary, is only there as a way to say that if you don't think God is evil, then he doesn't exist because he must be evil if he does exist...wait, I think I passed my starting point.So what about that second option, that God is evil because he allows something like this to happen? "Dear God, stop telling me how to live my life, but could you go ahead and make sure nothing really bad happens to me?" Anyway, the formula seems to be "God allows X people to suffer = evil." What is X? Is God evil because anything bad happens? I'd like to understand this point better.The only sense to make of tragedies like this is that terrible things can happen to perfectly innocent people. This understanding inspires compassion.Religious faith, on the other hand, erodes compassion. Thoughts like, “this might be all part of God’s plan,” or “there are no accidents in life,” or “everyone on some level gets what he or she deserves” - these ideas are not only stupid, they are extraordinarily callous. They are nothing more than a childish refusal to connect with the suffering of other human beings. It is time to grow up and let our hearts break at moments like this.Why does believing that horrible things might happen for a reason preclude compassion? "I just had major open heart surgery.""Yeah, but you would've died without it. Stop being such a baby."Does that conversation exist anywhere in the world? He lumps "gets what he deserves" in with "God's plan" so he can group the absurd extremists in with normal Christians. And except for the extreme absurdists, I haven't seen any evidence that believing in "God's plan" hardens hearts or erodes compassion. He's just making shit up.

Look at it like this. We are both standing on the curb but you step out into the street without looking and ther is a bus coming right at you, seconds away. I can, A. push youB. pull you backC. do nothing.You are saying that by definition God is all powerful but simply chooses C. do nothing.Now if BG was standing behind me watching, he'd say, "Wow, that was evil!"

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

Look at it like this. We are both standing on the curb but you step out into the street without looking and ther is a bus coming right at you, seconds away. I can, A. push youB. pull you backC. do nothing.You are saying that by definition God is all powerful but simply chooses C. do nothing.Now if BG was standing behind me watching, he'd say, "Wow, that was evil!"

So you believe that God should prevent everything bad ever.

[Roll the Bones 74]

Why does believing that horrible things might happen for a reason preclude compassion? Because of the biblical reasoning I just described,1. Job's friends basically said, "God is just, always and everywhere".2. God rewards good people with success.3. Job was stripped of his rewards. Thus, 4. Job is not a good person.You hear many people saying, (not all mind you) things like, "It was God's plan" "God is making them pay for their evil ways" Many people use tragedy as a way to justify evil. Pat Robertson said that Katrina was God's way of punishing New Orleans for their evil ways. That is not exactly compassion.

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

You hear many people saying, (not all mind you) things like, "It was God's plan" "God is making them pay for their evil ways" Many people use tragedy as a way to justify evil. Pat Robertson said that Katrina was God's way of punishing New Orleans for their evil ways. That is not exactly compassion.

I haven't been following your Job discussion.You're also making this connection of "God's plan" with "making them pay," which just isn't the same thing. Obviously if you believe that people deserve it, then you won't feel compassion for them. I'm saying that only ridiculous people believe that.

[Roll the Bones 74]

So you believe that God should prevent everything bad ever.

Well, obviously I am in the "imaginary camp" so I think the whole idea of him creating it, and especially being involved in the workings has no merit or evidence. So the idea,which the bible promotes, that God does have an influence leaves you to wonder these exact questions. Why doesn't or does he interfere? Wouldn't a disastor this terrible be enough to get him to do something? And if not, then he must be okay with it happening, thus evil in what we would consider it by any stretch of the imagination. Inaction is like me doing nothing on the curb. It's just as evil. Or, he really isn't there to do anything. The only thing left would be believiing in a God that doesn't do anything, and umm, why would anyone do that?

[Roll the Bones 74]

I haven't been following your Job discussion.You're also making this connection of "God's plan" with "making them pay," which just isn't the same thing. Obviously if you believe that people deserve it, then you won't feel compassion for them. I'm saying that only ridiculous people believe that.

But that is what the bible says, so are you calling everyone that follows the bible ridiculous? So in essence, in a short few sentances that is the point that Harris is simply making, that believing in an omni-potent God can lead to some irrational thought regarding morality.

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

Why doesn't or does he interfere? Wouldn't a disastor this terrible be enough to get him to do something? And if not, then he must be okay with it happening, thus evil in what we would consider it by any stretch of the imagination.

Any stretch of the imagination? If God exists, then he would have seen over 100 billion people live on Earth. How many died in (which tragedy are we talking about? let's say the Japan quake/tsunami) Japan? 20,000? So in his eyes, .00002%?In my opinion, if you're going to ask "Why did God let this happen?" then you have to ask "Why did God let anything bad happen?" and that seems to be a much trickier question.

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

But that is what the bible says, so are you calling everyone that follows the bible ridiculous? So in essence, in a short few sentances that is the point that Harris is simply making, that believing in an omni-potent God can lead to some irrational thought regarding morality.

I choose not to answer the first question.Is this what all the Job stuff has been about? That if something bad happens it's because God is punishing you? Because I would probably disagree with that interpretation.

[BaseJester 1]

In my opinion, if you're going to ask "Why did God let this happen?" then you have to ask "Why did God let anything bad happen?" and that seems to be a much trickier question.

Yeah, I think that's exactly the question.

[Roll the Bones 74]

This is the normal human expectation of things. God would never allow anything bad to happen to me because I am a decent person. Something bad happened to so and so? Then he must be somehow responsible.Not trueJob's sorrows are great, anyone who has suffered knows that during the time of suffering, we lash out in anger, we deny, we bargain, then we accept. Normal human response here, not a treatise on how things are.I think you misunderstand the meaning of God's power. God's power isn't man power, one that needs to be shown etc. God's power is based on God's righteousness, or His right to choose and decide everything. Later Job would learn this when God first slams his buddies who try to justify their shallow understanding of God by saying Job must somehow be at fault.Incidentally, Job here is talking to his friends in these verses, friends who just got finished telling Job that he must be at fault. This isn't Job speaking to God, or to the reader, he is answering his friends shallow understanding with his own shallow understanding.I'm going to go out on a limb and not do an internet search and declare that many Christians do in fact read the Bible. And while you see a glossing over, many of them struggle and search and come away with answers if they are open and honest in their dealings. I know its been true in my case.Again, you have too small a view of who God is. God isn't a big one of us that we can reason with, nor a man that figured things out and now sits on high. He is God, His ways are not our ways, His thoughts not our thoughts. To place a burden of being responsible to answer to us for His decisions isn't one based on any logic, its based on a deep misunderstanding of what it means to be a created being.If you are looking for the answers, why do you demand to have the right to declare yourself equal to God?Because when you make God just a bigger one of you, then of course God would have petty emotions and be on an ego trip.The problem Randy, is that your God is too smallThis book will give you a much better understanding of the difference between a make believe god, and the God Almighty.

This is the normal human expectation of things. God would never allow anything bad to happen to me because I am a decent person. Something bad happened to so and so? Then he must be somehow responsible.Not true

Sure it is. The whole old testament is about God railing against the Israelites for being dumbasses and not following his desire and orders, aside from being about obtaining land. I mean God smites the shit out of people all the time for disobeying his orders.

Job's sorrows are great, anyone who has suffered knows that during the time of suffering, we lash out in anger, we deny, we bargain, then we accept. Normal human response here, not a treatise on how things are.I think you misunderstand the meaning of God's power. God's power isn't man power, one that needs to be shown etc. God's power is based on God's righteousness, or His right to choose and decide everything. Later Job would learn this when God first slams his buddies who try to justify their shallow understanding of God by saying Job must somehow be at fault.Incidentally, Job here is talking to his friends in these verses, friends who just got finished telling Job that he must be at fault. This isn't Job speaking to God, or to the reader, he is answering his friends shallow understanding with his own shallow understanding.

But don't you see, God got mad and smited them because they assumed that people that are good and follow God's commands will be protected. That's mostly what the bible is about. It's what he says will happen. But, God gets mad at them for assuming JOB did something wrong when he didn't. You can call his buddies shallow but really, why wouldn't they assume that. And really, like you are saying, Job wasn't at fault. He was completely innocent. By God's own words JOb did nothing to deserve the cruel treatment. It all happened because God was incited to making a bet with satan. That's all. God said so. Now you can try to convince me that that isn't what the bible says and I'm open to it. But I think you are simply reading things into it, or are being persuaded something happened that didn't. He vented for 4 chapters about it. Can you show me where this isn't what he was saying or meant to say. It was God talking.I waited and waited to see what God's reason and moral would be for the story and I was pretty surprised, that it was "You can't question me because I'm bigger and more powerful than you." This is what started why I mentioned Job in the first place. This is how slavemasters act. God is saying I am more powerful and I don't have to be just or explain myself, but you have to follow anyway.For you to say that I am trying to make God human is lame. God bartered and bantered back and forth with people from the bible all the time. He often changed his mind and in this story was even duped, or I should say, "incited". He was prone to rage and anger and exhibited every human emotion. And really, if we can't understand the meanings behind what he wrote, then why the hell did he have them written for people to follow, if we can't understand what to follow? That's just idiotic.Also, you're view of Satan taking over the earth is a missconception as well. Satan wasn't the devil and is never mentioned as such in the old testament. There is no heaven and hell either, other than a few vague references which could be construed as alot of things. But this certainly didin't evolve into a devil type charachter until the NT at best. You can ask the Jews on this one.

[Roll the Bones 74]

I choose not to answer the first question.Is this what all the Job stuff has been about? That if something bad happens it's because God is punishing you? Because I would probably disagree with that interpretation.

Then again, which is it. Is he punishing people or simply standing by and letting it happen? The story of Job is a little different but the concept does have to deal with God punishing people as does most of the old testament. But Harris point is simple enough, when you are busy making excuses for disastor as God's will it takes away from being compasionate in alot of cases. He is not saying that it will in every case. From an athiest perspective that it was simply a terrible disaster there really isn't a question and compassion is the only real "moral" emotion to have, because if you don't you're pretty heartless and have problems.

[Balloon guy 158]

Sure it is. The whole old testament is about God railing against the Israelites for being dumbasses and not following his desire and orders, aside from being about obtaining land. I mean God smites the shit out of people all the time for disobeying his orders.But don't you see, God got mad and smited them because they assumed that people that are good and follow God's commands will be protected. That's mostly what the bible is about. It's what he says will happen. But, God gets mad at them for assuming JOB did something wrong when he didn't. You can call his buddies shallow but really, why wouldn't they assume that. And really, like you are saying, Job wasn't at fault. He was completely innocent. By God's own words JOb did nothing to deserve the cruel treatment. It all happened because God was incited to making a bet with satan. That's all. God said so. Now you can try to convince me that that isn't what the bible says and I'm open to it. But I think you are simply reading things into it, or are being persuaded something happened that didn't. He vented for 4 chapters about it. Can you show me where this isn't what he was saying or meant to say. It was God talking.I waited and waited to see what God's reason and moral would be for the story and I was pretty surprised, that it was "You can't question me because I'm bigger and more powerful than you." This is what started why I mentioned Job in the first place. This is how slavemasters act. God is saying I am more powerful and I don't have to be just or explain myself, but you have to follow anyway.For you to say that I am trying to make God human is lame. God bartered and bantered back and forth with people from the bible all the time. He often changed his mind and in this story was even duped, or I should say, "incited". He was prone to rage and anger and exhibited every human emotion. And really, if we can't understand the meanings behind what he wrote, then why the hell did he have them written for people to follow, if we can't understand what to follow? That's just idiotic.Also, you're view of Satan taking over the earth is a missconception as well. Satan wasn't the devil and is never mentioned as such in the old testament. There is no heaven and hell either, other than a few vague references which could be construed as alot of things. But this certainly didin't evolve into a devil type charachter until the NT at best. You can ask the Jews on this one.

So you are saying that what Job's friends said was right, and that's what gives you an excuse to judge God's action.Even though God clearly tells Job's friends they are completely wrong.Then you say satan isn't really the devil, and there is no heaven, and no hell.And you want me to explain what the Bible says?You literally have approached the Bible completely sure that for 2,000 years nobody has been able to figure out that satan is not the devil and that God is completely trapped by a set of rules demanding He act according to your actions.You know what makes me nervous in the Christian community? When someone 'finds' something previously missed in the Bible. If you were a Christian, you would literally be forming a cult now, with the new information. All those idiots who read the original Hebrew are fools, never seeing what so plainly is clear: God rewards you and punishes you strictly based on your actions, there is no heaven or hell, and satan is not the devil, he's just some guy who apperently can troll God and make Him do bad stuff to people then mock them. He did this for no reason.

[Balloon guy 158]

Look at it like this. We are both standing on the curb but you step out into the street without looking and ther is a bus coming right at you, seconds away. I can, A. push youB. pull you backC. do nothing.You are saying that by definition God is all powerful but simply chooses C. do nothing.Now if BG was standing behind me watching, he'd say, "Wow, that was evil!"

What about: D. Grant you enough sense to make up your own mind why crossing streets are a dangerous thing and buses will end your poker career?What if someone wants to jump in front of the bus? Should God also step in and stop that action? What about the people who see the accident,the bus driver, they might be mentally disturbed by seeing some guy kill himself.So you want God to be a giant babysitter?Why did he waste giving us freedom of choice if He was going to have to watch over all of our choices?

[SuitedAces21 2,723]

You're also making this connection of "God's plan" with "making them pay," which just isn't the same thing. Obviously if you believe that people deserve it, then you won't feel compassion for them. I'm saying that only ridiculous people believe that.

But that simply isnt true. I've heard people I know say just that. Either they deserved it, or it's all a part of god's plan comes out of the mouth of christians all the time. And the problem is that they refuse to acknowledge how utterly ridiculous such statements are. So you are, in my mind, saying that religious people are ridiculous. I'm glad we can agree on that. No need to explicitly state it; I know you dont want to take sides.Religion has no place in any rational discussion. It's time we move on from the fairy tales of our fathers.

[Spademan 94]

Nobody EVER tries to ease anyone's pain by bringing up the Easter Bunny.A child dies and many comment on how they are an angel now. An sick person dies and people comment on how they are in a better place now. I'm not saying it's right or true...it's just something people say. Also, I don't know any of these people, but I think we must consider intent. I don't think he meant any disrespect or had any malicious intent toward the 9-year old girl, he was just commenting on the woman.In the future he should consider saying "different plans" instead of "important plans." Or just be honest and say "I don't know."

You're completely missing his point. Someone bringing up the Easter Bunny to "comfort someone's pain" is exactly the same to people who don't hold irrational and magical beliefs as using The God of Abraham, Allah, El, Zeus, Xenu, Krishna...The number of people who believe in a particular invisible wizard, or fairy, or alien overlord has zero to do with how absurd the claim is. Allah having plans for my dead child's magic force, or Xenu taking my child's whatever the fuck Xenu might take out of the body into his spaceship is no different than the Easter Bunny taking my child's egg-juice to be painted in the large yard in the extra dimension. VB's point was that this claim, whether McNulty accidentally implied that the dead 9 year old girl didn't factor into gods important plans or not, deserves the exact same reaction. And it immediately engenders this reaction when you aren't under the spell religion has cast on our society that their various and absurd nonsense carries a reverence... this illusory and invented inherent respect that absolves it of any criticism. Criticism and examination we have no problem applying liberally and vocally on just about anything else we encounter.

Any stretch of the imagination? If God exists, then he would have seen over 100 billion people live on Earth. How many died in (which tragedy are we talking about? let's say the Japan quake/tsunami) Japan? 20,000? So in his eyes, .00002%?In my opinion, if you're going to ask "Why did God let this happen?" then you have to ask "Why did God let anything bad happen?" and that seems to be a much trickier question.

No. It really isn't any more tricky at all.The problem of evil, usually attributed to Epicurus, “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?” has been around a long, long time. I've seen it put in logical form, as a version they have on wiki, put in the affirmative to show the contradiction: 1. God exists. 2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good. 3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils. 4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence. 5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence. 6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil. 7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists. 8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).Yes. You are exactly right. If God should step in during a hurricane, shouldn't he also step in when a single baby is being raped to death? Uhm... if he existed, were able, and were "good"... then, yes. How is that tricky?To further the absurdity, the example I use instead of the bus-push posited earlier in the thread is the mentioned baby rape.If you saw a 15 year old boy, skinny, tiny, emaciated, naked and unarmed (meaning easily overpowered) approaching a baby detailing how he is going to rape that baby and kill it.Do you intervene? You exist. You have the ability. I'm going to assume you would. Because you are "good". Hell, even if you were pretty much a jackass and knocked over a bank once in awhile, chances are you'd intervene. "lol, so god should stop every baby from being raped and murdered?" Yes."lol, what about free will? You want us to be robots? HAHA."No. Does you stopping that 15 year old make him a robot? What does the agent of the intervention matter? If the 15 year old boy's "free will" to rape that baby trumps the "free will of the baby", who, probably would prefer not to be raped and murdered, then shouldn't you stand idle? That's the fucking argument. If god doesn't stop the boy, and god knows best and could stop him if he wanted, then you shouldn't stop him either. That's fucking necessary and obvious reasoning if someone is claiming that bullshit. "lol, no, I'd stop him because I'm not god and I don't know what the ultimate good is. But god does. He has a good reason to allow babies to get raped and murdered, we just can't understand it cuz we aren't god."Oh, really? Let's take a look at what that means, shall we? 1. In every instance, a baby being raped and murdered, by necessity in your argument, serves an ultimate good that only god knows. (If you don't know God's reasoning, how do you know there is a reason at all? But, go on.)2. Every baby rape and murder serves an ultimate good.3. Babies being raped and murdered is good. 4. I do not know gods reasoning. (Ya, we kind of talked about that on point....You know what? I had a shit ton more to say on the subject. That logical progression had four more steps. Then example after example, argument after argument - but I was just hit with a wave of despair that it even has to be fleshed out so thoroughly to expose the stupidity of the concept of a non-intervening, all-good, all powerful god. Hell, he could even allow people to "want" to rape babies, and judge them based on their desire, since people are so enamored of their god wanting the ability to "judge" people. Will, desire, is not a matter of action. I can want to fly. I can will myself to fly. I cannot fly, no matter how much I will it. A creator god, by necessity, must have built that inability to enact my will in action into our the laws of the universe. He, while creating... BY NECESSITY... would have had to choose to make it impossible for me to flap my arms and fly, regardless of my will, and chose to allow me to rape babies. Jesus this shit is obvious if you engage your brain. The idea that horrible tragedy and the ability to rape and murder people is "necessary" for people to be "free" to "will" whatever the hell they want is just stupid. It's fallacious, apologetic nonsense. Weasel words and obfuscation empty of any logical or reasonable progression and validity. Jesus. The only concepts of god that survive the problem of evil and other particular logical paradox involving omnipotence and omnipresence are non-intercessory, dispassionate or malevolent "beings" that are not omnipotent/omnipresent. Basically, aliens, or big, nebulous, conscious "things". And those fall to parsimony.