Rock Beyond Belief

[BaseJester 1]

Just because he knows what will happen if he sets it up a certain way, doesn't mean that he wanted it to happen.

It seems to me that it does mean that.

It would be pretty easy for any parent on this board to come up with an analogy on how this could happen with our kids. I have my house set up a certain way, I know for a fact my kids will break the rules, I don't want them to break the rules, but I also don't want to handcuff them to the radiator. This doesn't mean that the only solution is me not having kids to begin with.

Parents are not impotent, so I don't think this is a very useful mental construct.

If I was God, I know that I would get a lot more pleasure out of people following me, if those people had the ability to not choose to follow me.If you were God, which way would make you happier? A world where no one sins or ever stops following you, because you set it up so that it wouldn't be possible OR the opposite?

I think you're holding some contradictory ideas about the nature of God. Is God just some powerful dude who does things because they're amusing? If I were God, I would arrange things so I got to **** a lot of attractive women and throw a good knuckleball. I just don't think what a person would do is all that useful for predicting or explaining the behavior of an omnipotent deity.In your next post you may very well be arguing that God transcends all human comprehension, so who knows what he's thinking.

[BaseJester 1]

Actually, I think it's more the result of people taking the chance of living near the coast in places known for big ass tsunamis, but that's just me. I mean, you reap what you sew.

Sow. You reap what you sow.Right, they had it coming. Even the infants. If they were smart, they would be born in a place without hurricanes, tsunamis, landslides, tigers, tornadoes, earth quakes, lightning, droughts, floods, volcanoes, diseases, locusts, spiders, snakes, traffic or rabid stray dogs.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

I see what you are saying, I just think that it's worth mentioning that, according to the story, initially that's was how we started. What we see is the result of bad choices, not the doing of God, according to the story. My personal guess is that God had no desire to create a being that could not think for itself and had no will of it's own. If that was the goal than just make giant Lego people.

but if god is all knowing and all powerful, he must have known adam and eve would get to fucking in that garden. right? if he created us, gave us the ability to think and choose for ourselves and put sexual instincts in every human, he must have known people would rape and murder. and if he knew this, and allowed it, we must conclude that god likes to watch people get raped, and murdered. he didnt have to set it up this way, but he did. and everytime i hear the argument, well he's god, we cant possibly understand what he's thinking or why things happen the way they do; i say, no shit, sherlock, and i wonder why so many people worry about what god thinks about homosexuals or stem cell research. if raping a baby is all part of the plan, why arent homosexuals? why do people know exactly how god feels about some things, and yet turn right around and say we cant possibly know what he's thinking about baby rape, or tsunami's or the holocaust or any other of the disgusting acts of immorality that plauge mankind. the answer is simple: these people are talking out of their asses, and are morons who should have no voice in a rational discussion about the welfare and policies of human beings. no voice until they leave magical fairy tales behind and look at the world in a rational, logical light. then maybe we can forget about what homosexual's do at night, or if they're married, and we can forget about whehter a three day old embryo has a soul and focus on allowing people to live, and saving lives through the most promising medical advancements ever., and focus on important global issues: our enviroment and what we're doing to it, world hunger, the rampant abuse of human rights that still pervades numerous countries. you know, something that actually might help some people.i rambled and dont want to edit. deal with any mistakes in grammar or logic. YOU DEAL WITH IT.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Things just stopped getting polite with suited. And started getting real.

[vbnautilus 48]

Just because he knows what will happen if he sets it up a certain way, doesn't mean that he wanted it to happen.

Yes it does, because he had the choice to make it not happen. He's omnipotent.

It would be pretty easy for any parent on this board to come up with an analogy on how this could happen with our kids.

No it wouldn't since none of us are omniscient. We can't know exactly what will happen to our kids. Nor is it under our control since we are not omnipotent. It's a terrible analogy.

If I was God, I know that I would get a lot more pleasure out of people following me, if those people had the ability to not choose to follow me.

Please don't try and apply your own sensibilities to god.

If you were God, which way would make you happier? A world where no one sins or ever stops following you, because you set it up so that it wouldn't be possible OR the opposite?

He's not actually restricted to that choice. He can have both. He's omnipotent.

[Spademan 94]

It seems to me that it does mean that.

Sow. You reap what you sow.Right, they had it coming. Even the infants. If they were smart, they would be born in a place without hurricanes, tsunamis, landslides, tigers, tornadoes, earth quakes, lightning, droughts, floods, volcanoes, diseases, locusts, spiders, snakes, traffic or rabid stray dogs.

I really don't know how it could be made any more clear. How many examples have to be made. How often it has to be reiterated.This is not a statement of faith, this is not a fallacy or a rhetorical trick: An omnipotent, omniscient, "good" god is impossible. Unless you're willing to take the term "good" completely out of our hands, shrug your shoulders and say "well, whatever happens god wants to happen and is therefore good."Frankly, this is where, when we really start bearing down on what people believe on faith, things start to get scary. This sort of belief in belief, this magical thinking is able to disable someones reason, their logic and what they are capable of forming as morality on their own, and puts it into the hands of holy men. You just can't understand, it's beyond you, God knows and I can tell you what god thinks. Put aside those doubts. Your soul depends upon it. Be a fool for god.Fly planes into buildings, burn witches, subvert scientific progress, continue misogynist bullshit... all kinds of nonsense put into the hands of religious authorities. It should be noted that it isn't just the religious who can suffer from belief in belief. It isn't just the the religious who can suffer from a lack of critical thought. You can be an "atheist" UFO conspiracy nut, a 9/11 truther, a victim of psychics and dead-speaking necromancy snake oil salesmen, ponzy schemes, frauds and general con men. You can fall under the spell of the rhetoric of a political ideology. Under the influence of a charismatic speaker and leader of men. Someone who is so compelling a personality you follow them down whatever rabbit hole, no matter how nasty, they lead you. Never engaging your critical thought and taking their malevolent directives at face value. Religious belief in belief is just the most common and prevalent indoctrination we face in the US, which is why it is often the focal point of the issue.

[SweetDee 0]

Sow. You reap what you sow.Right, they had it coming. Even the infants. If they were smart, they would be born in a place without hurricanes, tsunamis, landslides, tigers, tornadoes, earth quakes, lightning, droughts, floods, volcanoes, diseases, locusts, spiders, snakes, traffic or rabid stray dogs.

I'm not saying they had it coming. I was saying that inherent travesty will take place when one chooses to live/build/make a life in an area known for big ass waves that drown things. I'm also saying I wouldn't put it on Gods shoulders to stop the inevitable, that's what insurance is for, and it won't even stop it, it will just pay for the damage. Put it this way- remember like a year or so back when a apartment complex was basically falling in the ocean somewhere off of Highway 1 in Northern California? If you were the soul dumb enough to still want to sleep in that room, and you wake up in the ocean who is to blame? God? Or you? Isn't tsunami a Japanese word invented because these things have been pretty fierce over the years? I think I read that somewhere. I also read somewhere that Japan had a hard time building any kind of reliable fishing industry because of the waves. How about Mt. St Helens and the numb skulls that decided to stay and tough it out- Gods fault? I just don't see the point in thinking that a all powerful God also has to play some kind of constant blast shield. He could also just let things happens as they will. It's entirely possible that every person that died was supposed too.

[SweetDee 0]

Things just stopped getting polite with suited. And started getting real.

I appreciate his outlook and agree with pretty much everything he said. I just like to look at both sides of the picture, because let's face it, God, or the notion of him, is gonna be around for awhile. This has been interesting. Maybe I will try and check in more. Cheers fellas.

[Spademan 94]

I'm not saying they had it coming. I was saying that inherent travesty will take place when one chooses to live/build/make a life in an area known for big ass waves that drown things. I'm also saying I wouldn't put it on Gods shoulders to stop the inevitable, that's what insurance is for, and it won't even stop it, it will just pay for the damage. Put it this way- remember like a year or so back when a apartment complex was basically falling in the ocean somewhere off of Highway 1 in Northern California? If you were the soul dumb enough to still want to sleep in that room, and you wake up in the ocean who is to blame? God? Or you? Isn't tsunami a Japanese word invented because these things have been pretty fierce over the years? I think I read that somewhere. I also read somewhere that Japan had a hard time building any kind of reliable fishing industry because of the waves. How about Mt. St Helens and the numb skulls that decided to stay and tough it out- Gods fault? I just don't see the point in thinking that a all powerful God also has to play some kind of constant blast shield. He could also just let things happens as they will. It's entirely possible that every person that died was supposed too.

I can't tell if you're trolling or if you're spouting off legitimately stupid shit, all the while ignoring that his point was: babies can't choose where to fucking live... you idiot. But, if you're trolling, we have been having a fairly civil discussion in this thread and I've personally put a modicum of effort into explaining things, rather than just calling idiots idiots. So, try not to break up that continuity. If you're sincere, you are incapable of formulating your thoughts in a coherent and relevant enough way to contribute in any meaningful capacity. Other than to provide an example of how poorly one can think.

[Spademan 94]

Glancing back through this thread, since I've made an attempt to actually explain why idiotic beliefs are idiotic, I should probably add links to explain words used that may be obscure to people I'm attempting to have a discussion with.I hadn't previously because, and this is a weakness of argument that I don't normally try to fix because it's annoying, I go into a discussion assuming that people go about it in a similar way to myself in regard to understanding what the other person means. If I don't know a word or phrase that's used, I look it up. Always. Every time. I have since I was a kid. That's why I very rarely have to look up a word or phrase these days.Anyhow, to avoid obfuscation (coincidentally a word I'm going to link):A logical method I often use, Reductio ad absurdumCritical thinkingLogicFallacyObfuscationWeasle wordParsimonyMagical thinkingSome specific fallacies discussed:Fallacy of compisitionArgumentum ad populumArgument from ignoranceIf any of these terms were not fully understood as you read my previous posts, learn them (and read the entire page, not just the first "definition". They often include multiple examples, elaborations and sometimes even refutations -as fail as they may or may not be- to the original definition itself) then go back and reread my posts, and proceed from there. That's all I can think of without actually examining the thread thoroughly. If you read and understand those wiki explanations, you'll be far more likely to avoid being made to look stupid. More important, you'll also be better able to examine, and, if you still hold them for some stupid-ass reason, defend, your faith-based beliefs. If any of you who have been arguing with me in this thread think you're "holding your own", you aren't. I don't have the time or inclination to spend the hours and hours, semesters worth of instruction, to explain why. I'm at least pointing you in the right direction. So I can drink peacefully tonight.

[SweetDee 0]

I can't tell if you're trolling or if you're spouting off legitimately stupid shit, all the while ignoring that his point was babies can't choose where to fucking live... you idiot. But, if you're trolling, we have been having a fairly civil discussion and I've personally put a modicum of effort into explaining things, rather than just calling idiots idiots. So, try not to break up that continuity. If you're sincere, you are incapable of formulating your thoughts in a coherent and relevant enough way to contribute in any meaningful capacity. Other than to provide an example of how poorly one can think.

I missed the even the infants part of his statement. My apologies.

[Spademan 94]

I missed the even the infants part of his statement. My apologies.

Which was the most pertinent part of his post in respect to the discussion you were having.Though your apology is accepted my last post directed toward you still stands.

[brvheart 1,752]

Other than Suited being unable to post without his emotions getting in the way, and Spademan owning the world's largest dick, this thread has been great. I just wanted to say that again.I especially loved the part where Spade was talking about society as a whole thinking that torturing a murderer for a few minutes is inhumane, so how can God torture people forever. That was a very interesting point.

Are you saying that tsunamis are the result of sin?

I'm saying that the Bible implies that things like natural disasters happening in general are the result of sin entering into the picture. I'm not saying that the Bible says that that particular Tsunami was aimed right at Japan for a specific reason.

But more importantly, you're forgetting his omniscience. He knows, given the initial conditions, exactly what will happen if he creates this particular world. Therefore he either1. wants it to be that way2. cannot change it Can't be 2 since he's omnipotent, right?He can't both set things up to happen exactly as they do and also not want it to go that way. Makes no sense given that he can set things up to go any way he wants.

In the few posts that I've had in this thread I've said the exact same thing. I think the Bible is pretty clear that God does want the world exactly how he made it. Just because some people did what he knew they would do, doesn't mean that he wanted them to do it. The issue is that there are people that "pass". Let's say you were hiring a undercover agent. You would set up some sort of test for the applicants. Most would fail, and you would know that going in. That doesn't mean you didn't want it that way. My problem is that you guys seem to be boxing God in. I don't see how you can know so confidently what a hypothetical God's plans are.

Do you know for a fact that the fruit thing was bad?

It was good and evil according to the Bible... right?

Parents are not impotent, so I don't think this is a very useful mental construct.I think you're holding some contradictory ideas about the nature of God. Is God just some powerful dude who does things because they're amusing? If I were God, I would arrange things so I got to **** a lot of attractive women and throw a good knuckleball. I just don't think what a person would do is all that useful for predicting or explaining the behavior of an omnipotent deity.In your next post you may very well be arguing that God transcends all human comprehension, so who knows what he's thinking.

The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't really matter what we would do, because it's irrelevant, and I think you agree.

Yes it does, because he had the choice to make it not happen. He's omnipotent.

But what if He wanted it to happen?

No it wouldn't since none of us are omniscient. We can't know exactly what will happen to our kids. Nor is it under our control since we are not omnipotent. It's a terrible analogy.

You only think it's terrible because you don't view a hypothetical God as having a personal interest in people's lives. Why would He?

Please don't try and apply your own sensibilities to god.

I would say this is an issue for every single person in here.

He's not actually restricted to that choice. He can have both. He's omnipotent.

Just because He can, doesn't mean He has to.Ps. I love that VB and Spade are having an unspoken grammar debate amongst all of this.

[Mercury69 3]

The Bible is just a story book and there is no "God". There is Faith (morals and ethics get lumped into this, along with other stuff associated with being a "good" person) and its application to one's life. Then there is Nature. They do not work in conjunction or against one another. Tsunamis happen for a reason, but the reason is tectonic in nature and the disasterous results can be simply attributed to proximity to impacted areas.Don't like this opinion? Comfort thyselves with prayer that I may go to Hell in a flaming handbasket.

[Roll the Bones 74]

Just because he knows what will happen if he sets it up a certain way, doesn't mean that he wanted it to happen. It would be pretty easy for any parent on this board to come up with an analogy on how this could happen with our kids. I have my house set up a certain way, I know for a fact my kids will break the rules, I don't want them to break the rules, but I also don't want to handcuff them to the radiator. This doesn't mean that the only solution is me not having kids to begin with.If I was God, I know that I would get a lot more pleasure out of people following me, if those people had the ability to not choose to follow me.If you were God, which way would make you happier? A world where no one sins or ever stops following you, because you set it up so that it wouldn't be possible OR the opposite?

This is exactly the how God is in the old testament. He was all about people revering him and putting him on a pedastal. He raged when people looked to to other Gods or magical thinking for help. He tortured and murdered people often for just this offense. He often acted like a petulant baby. But though he had all this immense power, he was not all-knowing and omniprescient like we just discussed in Job. So the issue becomes do you follow him because you fear him or fear his power because he cerainly isn't moral. I can't even wrap my head around the logic being displayed here. Good things are God's intentions and he is an involved God. Bad things are things out of his control, he doesn't want to happen or can't control. Christians seem to have all these default excuses built in, all the while completely ignoring the only true source for any of this reasoning, the bible.

I'm not saying that the Tsunami was good. I'm saying we don't know, but God might know.

To me as was explained in this thread, it becomes a question of morality. Belief in this God ultimately skews morality.

[vbnautilus 48]

I'm saying that the Bible implies that things like natural disasters happening in general are the result of sin entering into the picture.

If everyone was good the tectonic plates would fit better?

In the few posts that I've had in this thread I've said the exact same thing.

You seem to be vacillating and it's confusing me:

I think the Bible is pretty clear that God does want the world exactly how he made it.

Just because some people did what he knew they would do, doesn't mean that he wanted them to do it.

But what if He wanted it to happen?

I've said he must have wanted it to happen because he set it up so that it would happen. I can't figure out what you are saying at all.

The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't really matter what we would do, because it's irrelevant, and I think you agree.

Think you missed the joke here.

You only think it's terrible because you don't view a hypothetical God as having a personal interest in people's lives. Why would He?

No, I explained exactly why I think its a terrible analogy. Both share an interest in the subject's lives, but only one has full control and knowledge of what will happen in those lives. That's a very important difference. A parent does not have the choice to set things up so that whatever they want to happen will happen. That's why we call him God and not Dad.

[solderz 0]

I'm saying that the Bible implies that things like natural disasters happening in general are the result of sin entering into the picture. I'm not saying that the Bible says that that particular Tsunami was aimed right at Japan for a specific reason.

What a douche bag. You and your god need to f off.

[Mercury69 3]

****ing God-heads...Here's an example how stupid "faith" can be:I'm on the elevator the other day and there are 3 women talking. One quotes a couple of stats on the Japan disaster and then says..."Well, I always say God has a purpose. And it's so crowded over there."Are you ****ing kidding me? It's one of the stupidest things I ever heard in my life. This is the kind of God people want to believe in? Please spare me the bullshit and just keep this kind of religion to yourself in a deep hole where no one can hear you.

From earlier in the thread. Allow me to reiterate my distaste for this kind of stupidity. It has no real place in true religion and simply underlines the simple-mindedness of those who subscribe to this shit.

What a douche bag. You and your god need to f off.

This statement and the fact we both have Columbus associations (I was born there by accident) give us a little something in common.

[brvheart 1,752]

No, I explained exactly why I think its a terrible analogy. Both share an interest in the subject's lives, but only one has full control and knowledge of what will happen in those lives. That's a very important difference. A parent does not have the choice to set things up so that whatever they want to happen will happen. That's why we call him God and not Dad.

Not all things, but definitely some things. Like going to a new school for the first time, etc.

[brvheart 1,752]

The Bible is just a story book and there is no "God". There is Faith (morals and ethics get lumped into this, along with other stuff associated with being a "good" person) and its application to one's life. Then there is Nature. They do not work in conjunction or against one another. Tsunamis happen for a reason, but the reason is tectonic in nature and the disasterous results can be simply attributed to proximity to impacted areas.Don't like this opinion? Comfort thyselves with prayer that I may go to Hell in a flaming handbasket.

From earlier in the thread. Allow me to reiterate my distaste for this kind of stupidity. It has no real place in true religion and simply underlines the simple-mindedness of those who subscribe to this shit.This statement and the fact we both have Columbus associations (I was born there by accident) give us a little something in common.

Listen, you unmitigated faggot, this is a religion forum. If you want to troll, stick to it. Don't get pissed because you aren't getting the attention you're whoring for and spewing your nonsense out into the main forum.

[Roll the Bones 74]

heh heh

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Hey. Why do you have suited aces saying that? THAT'S PURE MCGEE. And while I highly approve using it against Merc, I want god damn credit for it.

[brvheart 1,752]

Hey. Why do you have suited aces saying that? THAT'S PURE MCGEE. And while I highly approve using it against Merc, I want god damn credit for it.

Click the snapback. He stole it from you, and then I stole it from him.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Click the snapback. He stole it from you, and then I stole it from him.

that son of a bitch.

[Mercury69 3]

Neener!