Rock Beyond Belief

[BaseJester 1]

Since there is more slavery now than anytime in the history of the world, I am proud that so many Christian organizations are fighting this and actively buying and freeing slaves to do something to help . . .

Paying someone to do something surprisingly turns out not to be a particularly effective deterrent for that behavior.

[digitalmonkey 929]

my goodness: the point, you've missed it.edit: unless you're joking. i really hope you're joking.

If the point wasn't that you are wrong in your claim that religion isn't a personal thing in my opinion then yes, I missed it.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

yes, you're wrong. religion is not confined to the individual. it can and does have consequences for people who dont believe.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

Mine?I think slavery is a horrible evil.Since there is more slavery now than anytime in the history of the world, I am proud that so many Christian organizations are fighting this and actively buying and freeing slaves to do something to help, while almost every secular group including governments are ignoring the situation.If you mean what does the Bible say, then the Bible says if you are a slave, then be a good slave. And if you own a slave, remember that you have a Master that you will answer too for your conduct towards your slave.Considering that slavery was prevalent in the world, it handles the issue pretty well if you ask me.And just as the founding father of this country who made blacks less than equal were not responsible for making the constitution a tainted document, but in fact were only making the best with a bad situation, it was the Christians that fixed it for the government by forcing them to face the evils of slavery.So slavery, one of our better issues, one of secular humanism's worst.

I don't understand why the bolded gives the Bible a pass on this. Murder, Idolatry, Theft (oops, got the order wrong. Idolatry is totally the worst) were prevalent too and the Bible took a stance on these issues that is a lot stronger. It's almost as though the Bible, even if it were the word of God, was flawed and conflicted by its inscribers. The Imperfect Word of God, at best. Or maybe slavery just isn't as bad a thing in the eyes of God as, say, thinking your neighbour has a pretty damn cool donkey. Owning slaves is fine - just don't make him do anything on Sunday.

[digitalmonkey 929]

yes, you're wrong. religion is not confined to the individual. it can and does have consequences for people who dont believe.

The fact there are consequences does not dispute the fact religion is confined to the individual. You can dispute this, but you can not disprove it.

[vbnautilus 48]

The fact there are consequences does not dispute the fact religion is confined to the individual. You can dispute this, but you can not disprove it.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

[digitalmonkey 929]

Ah, here come the pics.Jay Z?OK...I'll play...

[Balloon guy 158]

I don't understand why the bolded gives the Bible a pass on this. Murder, Idolatry, Theft (oops, got the order wrong. Idolatry is totally the worst) were prevalent too and the Bible took a stance on these issues that is a lot stronger. It's almost as though the Bible, even if it were the word of God, was flawed and conflicted by its inscribers. The Imperfect Word of God, at best. Or maybe slavery just isn't as bad a thing in the eyes of God as, say, thinking your neighbour has a pretty damn cool donkey. Owning slaves is fine - just don't make him do anything on Sunday.

Slavery in the past had many different forms, including selling yourself into slavery to pay off a debt etc.But the perspective of the Bible is bigger than just the short life we live here.The Bible says the borrower is a slave to the lender, that makes about 99.99% of Americans slaves.It also says we are slaves to sin, obeying its commands even though the gluttony hurts us, the jealousy, the lusting.The notion that we are all free is slightly flawed anyway, stop paying your property tax in this country, and they can take away your home and sell it for pennies on the dollar to satisfy the tax lien. From an atheist perspective, they're a slave to nothingness, their life came from nothing, means nothing and will cease with no relevance. In the mean time you are required to work for someone who gives you money, which you must give to someone to be allowed to live, someone else to be allowed to eat, and someone else to be allowed to drive. Even if you become really rich, your masters just change, they don't disappear.Besides, the actions of the Christians in history support our stance of slavery, in the mean time, there are more slaves now than ever before.

[Balloon guy 158]

That's retarded.

Retarded that you and other fall for it every time? Or retarded that I told you and know that you will do it again?

As an atheist, and therefore ardent supporter of human slavery due to my godless amorality, I find it necessary to point out that you christians are all slaves to your god. It's funny because we were just talking about this at our atheist meeting the other day. Someone was reading a passage from Mein Kampf about the true meaning of slavery and after we all nodded thoughtfully in agreement Randy pointed out that Christianity was probably the biggest enslavement in history. But we kind of got cut off from the discussion because there was a knock at the door, and crow had to quickly hit the button that automatically flips over all the Mao posters to Dawkins posters. Turned out it was just the cleaning guy, haha, but we never really regained that train of thought.

The Bible says we once were slaves, but now we are sons and daughters and therefore heirs. But if you want to argue that slavery means adhearing to a set of principles, then I guess from that interpretation we are slaves...unlike...who?

Paying someone to do something surprisingly turns out not to be a particularly effective deterrent for that behavior.

Ignoring the 20 million+ people in slavery and hoping it fixes itself is even less effective.

[CaneBrain 95]

The society you are in was founded by Christians using Christian principles.Otherwise shut up and enjoy the freedoms you have here that no other country would afford you.

False and false. This is a little sad.VB, stop wasting excellent material on this guy.

[Balloon guy 158]

False and false. This is a little sad.VB, stop wasting excellent material on this guy.

This is a complete misrepresentation of any facts.There is no point even talking to you if this is the best you got.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

Slavery in the past had many different forms, including selling yourself into slavery to pay off a debt etc.But the perspective of the Bible is bigger than just the short life we live here.The Bible says the borrower is a slave to the lender, that makes about 99.99% of Americans slaves.It also says we are slaves to sin, obeying its commands even though the gluttony hurts us, the jealousy, the lusting.

Let's ignore the metaphorical forms of slavery and deal with actual slavery - people as property. How is the prevalence of an activity relevant to God's Laws? How do you justify slavery, as God, by saying "hey, everybody's doing it. might as well make the best of bad situation here" when, if you're God, you are looking at the long run here. I will certainly grant you that saying you should be nice to your slave (and hint at the Golden Rule) is a big step up from saying 'meh, the slave is property and do as you like to him', but when writing eternal law (which presumably looks past the current prevalence of slavery) do you really think God should be just advancing the runner? He should be swinging for the fences.

The notion that we are all free is slightly flawed anyway, stop paying your property tax in this country, and they can take away your home and sell it for pennies on the dollar to satisfy the tax lien. From an atheist perspective, they're a slave to nothingness, their life came from nothing, means nothing and will cease with no relevance. In the mean time you are required to work for someone who gives you money, which you must give to someone to be allowed to live, someone else to be allowed to eat, and someone else to be allowed to drive. Even if you become really rich, your masters just change, they don't disappear.

Not relevant to the argument that that God's eternal word is very shortsighted regarding slavery.

Besides, the actions of the Christians in history support our stance of slavery, in the mean time, there are more slaves now than ever before.

"While the real number of slaves is the largest there has ever been, he says, it is also probably the smallest proportion of the world population ever in slavery." source. There's lies, damn lies, and then there's statistics. Regardless, maybe if God had condemned slavery there wouldn't be 27 million slaves in the world today.To be clear - I'm not arguing that Christians are generally bad or that they support slavery or that they haven't done important work in the ongoing fight of ending slavery. I'm just saying: How is the prevalence of slavery in the then-current world of the Bible (and apparently now, too) a justification for God not condemning it?

[CaneBrain 95]

This is a complete misrepresentation of any facts.There is no point even talking to you if this is the best you got.

Ok, you're right, the US has a monopoly on freedom. You can't possibly believe this, right?

[vbnautilus 48]

From an atheist perspective, they're a slave to nothingness, their life came from nothing, means nothing and will cease with no relevance.

If only I could throw off the shackles of nothingness and live in freedom!

The Bible says we once were slaves, but now we are sons and daughters and therefore heirs. But if you want to argue that slavery means adhearing to a set of principles, then I guess from that interpretation we are slaves...unlike...who?

You guys have to do whatever he tells you to without question. He tells you to kill your own kid, you do it. He tells you to troll poker fora, you do it. If you disobey you are punished in hell. Pret-ty crazy that you guys are enslaved to something that doesn't even exist. You invented it and sold yourself to it for the small price of reason and truth.

[BaseJester 1]

Slavery in the past had many different forms, including selling yourself into slavery to pay off a debt etc.But the perspective of the Bible is bigger than just the short life we live here.The Bible says the borrower is a slave to the lender, that makes about 99.99% of Americans slaves.It also says we are slaves to sin, obeying its commands even though the gluttony hurts us, the jealousy, the lusting.The notion that we are all free is slightly flawed anyway, stop paying your property tax in this country, and they can take away your home and sell it for pennies on the dollar to satisfy the tax lien. From an atheist perspective, they're a slave to nothingness, their life came from nothing, means nothing and will cease with no relevance. In the mean time you are required to work for someone who gives you money, which you must give to someone to be allowed to live, someone else to be allowed to eat, and someone else to be allowed to drive. Even if you become really rich, your masters just change, they don't disappear.Besides, the actions of the Christians in history support our stance of slavery, in the mean time, there are more slaves now than ever before.

This is stupid verbal misdirection.

[Mercury69 3]

****ing God-heads...Here's an example how stupid "faith" can be:I'm on the elevator the other day and there are 3 women talking. One quotes a couple of stats on the Japan disaster and then says..."Well, I always say God has a purpose. And it's so crowded over there."Are you ****ing kidding me? It's one of the stupidest things I ever heard in my life. This is the kind of God people want to believe in? Please spare me the bullshit and just keep this kind of religion to yourself in a deep hole where no one can hear you.

[Balloon guy 158]

Let's ignore the metaphorical forms of slavery and deal with actual slavery - people as property. How is the prevalence of an activity relevant to God's Laws? How do you justify slavery, as God, by saying "hey, everybody's doing it. might as well make the best of bad situation here" when, if you're God, you are looking at the long run here. I will certainly grant you that saying you should be nice to your slave (and hint at the Golden Rule) is a big step up from saying 'meh, the slave is property and do as you like to him', but when writing eternal law (which presumably looks past the current prevalence of slavery) do you really think God should be just advancing the runner? He should be swinging for the fences.

The OT was an instruction book for a nation to conduct itself, it was not complete, nor was it to be a treatise on all things., However I see your point and would agree with it in a vacuum.The not eating of pork was a necessary role for a nomadic tribe in a hot climate, but the eternal view with refrigeration would be different. Does that mean for the time it was wrong to tell them to not eat pork?

Not relevant to the argument that that God's eternal word is very shortsighted regarding slavery. "While the real number of slaves is the largest there has ever been, he says, it is also probably the smallest proportion of the world population ever in slavery." source. There's lies, damn lies, and then there's statistics. Regardless, maybe if God had condemned slavery there wouldn't be 27 million slaves in the world today.

If God's laws were followed by everyone there wouldn't be any slaves, or any mass killings like in China and Russia.

To be clear - I'm not arguing that Christians are generally bad or that they support slavery or that they haven't done important work in the ongoing fight of ending slavery. I'm just saying: How is the prevalence of slavery in the then-current world of the Bible (and apparently now, too) a justification for God not condemning it?

The perspective of eternity places our current living conditions in the 'not really all that important' category. As a Christian I am to make the world a better place, knowing full well that's its future is total destruction. I don't feel that is contradictory at all, it is just more eternal minded.But there is another point to be made, the followers of Christ in the world are made up of every kind of crazy wild off kilter followers of random minute teaching that make them feel that they are 'more Christian' by following their brand of 'truth'.Not one supports slavery or owns slaves.So the Bible can hardly be accused of promoting slavery while even the fruit cakes don't get that from the verses.Add in that Christians have been the single greatest force stopping slavery in the world, and is active to this day, and any accusation of the Bible being pro-slavery is stuck in the 'only on paper' world, right along with darwinian evolution being true and communism being a viable form of government,

[Balloon guy 158]

If only I could throw off the shackles of nothingness and live in freedom!

sorry, you can't disprove throw off nothingness

You guys have to do whatever he tells you to without question. He tells you to kill your own kid, you do it. He tells you to troll poker fora, you do it. If you disobey you are punished in hell.

How little you understand. Hell is the place for everyone who sins, everyone. Once you simply accept Christ's forgiveness, you are never going to hell, no matter what you do. All your sins are forgiven, even the ones you haven't committed. We chose to not sin and follow His commands because of love for Him and His forgiveness, not fear of being rejected.

Pret-ty crazy that you guys are enslaved to something that doesn't even exist. You invented it and sold yourself to it for the small price of reason and truth.

And yet we are more happy, more healthy and less likely to kill millions of people at one time to 'free' the rest from the tryanny of capitalism.But hey, at least you guys can pretend that you are right, while actually acknowledging that right and wrong are irrelevant.

[vbnautilus 48]

How little you understand. Hell is the place for everyone who sins, everyone. Once you simply accept Christ's forgiveness, you are never going to hell, no matter what you do. All your sins are forgiven, even the ones you haven't committed.

This whole concept of "sin" is something he made up to describe what he doesn't want you to do.God told you to "accept Christ's forgiveness" and you must or you are punished in hell. ( I'll ignore the obvious trickery embedded in this description of the theology for now since the point is just that you are not free to do as you please, you must do as he wishes. )

We chose to not sin and follow His commands because of love for Him and His forgiveness, not fear of being rejected.

This sounds like battered wife syndrome. Hmmm a bit of Stockholm Syndrome in there too. Syndromes!Alternatively, "we chose to work in the cotton fields because our master is generous and kind, not because we feared the whip."

[BaseJester 1]

The perspective of eternity places our current living conditions in the 'not really all that important' category. As a Christian I am to make the world a better place, knowing full well that's its future is total destruction. I don't feel that is contradictory at all, it is just more eternal minded.

God didn't suggest that freeing all your slaves would be a way to make the world a better place. The Old Testament instruction seems fully grounded in the social context of the time, place, and readers' position, which is the complete opposite of being eternal-minded.

[Roll the Bones 74]

Slavery in the past had many different forms, including selling yourself into slavery to pay off a debt etc.But the perspective of the Bible is bigger than just the short life we live here.The Bible says the borrower is a slave to the lender, that makes about 99.99% of Americans slaves.It also says we are slaves to sin, obeying its commands even though the gluttony hurts us, the jealousy, the lusting.The notion that we are all free is slightly flawed anyway, stop paying your property tax in this country, and they can take away your home and sell it for pennies on the dollar to satisfy the tax lien. From an atheist perspective, they're a slave to nothingness, their life came from nothing, means nothing and will cease with no relevance. In the mean time you are required to work for someone who gives you money, which you must give to someone to be allowed to live, someone else to be allowed to eat, and someone else to be allowed to drive. Even if you become really rich, your masters just change, they don't disappear.Besides, the actions of the Christians in history support our stance of slavery, in the mean time, there are more slaves now than ever before.

http://www.lyricstime.com/bob-dylan-gotta-...ody-lyrics.html

[Balloon guy 158]

This sounds like battered wife syndrome. Hmmm a bit of Stockholm Syndrome in there too. Syndromes!Alternatively, "we chose to work in the cotton fields because our master is generous and kind, not because we feared the whip."

When your entire world is one where you are a slave, then finding a generous master is +EVAnd it is HILARIOUS when the other slaves from the camp without a generous master call you Uncle Tom.Cause Uncle Tom was a good guy in Harriet's book

[Balloon guy 158]

God didn't suggest that freeing all your slaves would be a way to make the world a better place. The Old Testament instruction seems fully grounded in the social context of the time, place, and readers' position, which is the complete opposite of being eternal-minded.

So you have decided, with only a subjective morality that has no merit other than what the current conditions ascribe to it as your basis, that the OT is not moral enough to allow for a reason for its position on slavery?Which I guess is why you are silent about the 27 million people living in slavery, and willing to judge how God should instruct a tiny nation living in 6,000 years ago based on your superior 'morality'? ( the one that is conditional and without concrete truths?)I think God should have put rules in the OT about identity theft and tax evasion. Therefore I am superior to what the Bible has to say about everything.

[BaseJester 1]

So you have decided, with only a subjective morality that has no merit other than what the current conditions ascribe to it as your basis, that the OT is not moral enough to allow for a reason for its position on slavery?

This is gibberish.

Which I guess is why you are silent about the 27 million people living in slavery,

I'm against slavery.

. . . and willing to judge how God should instruct a tiny nation living in 6,000 years ago based on your superior 'morality'? ( the one that is conditional and without concrete truths?)

I'm not saying that I believe in God and that he is a bad guy. I'm saying that I don't believe that God really wrote the rule that says slave owner can beat their slaves as long as they don't die.

I think God should have put rules in the OT about identity theft and tax evasion. Therefore I am superior to what the Bible has to say about everything.

This is a strawman unrelated to any of my assertions.