Union Worker Protests In Wi

[hblask 1]

Almost 2/3 of Americans think public sector unions should not exist.

[timwakefield 68]

I don't know what all is going on with this issue, like all of you. Of course, most of you see "Union" and immediately jump on the other side. But these are teachers, right? Teachers. The one occupation that is widely regarded as being underpaid. Teachers. If I have to pick a side before knowing all the info, I'm going with them.

Seriously, I feel like I've wandered into 1924 1824. Boooo unionization, yay for workers being unable to stand up for themselves! And screw those lazy overpaid teachers! Brvheart's comment that they should just hire scabs may have been a joke, but it also may not have. It's tough to tell with him sometimes.

[slink 1]

Exactly, and when there are a dozen teachers applying for every opening (except in the really dangerous districts), in free markets that is taken as a sign that pay is too high. In government, apparently, it means pay is not high enough.

So, just a few years ago (10) when there were more teacher jobs than available teachers the pay was too low??? Are there any facts to back this up? Like, examples of teacher salaries/benefits (and the relative differences in the last decade, versus relevant economic factors between then and now) reaching the moon over the past ten years?

[slink 1]

Seriously, I feel like I've wandered into 1924 1824. Boooo unionization, yay for workers being unable to stand up for themselves! And screw those lazy overpaid teachers! Brvheart's comment that they should just hire scabs may have been a joke, but it also may not have. It's tough to tell with him sometimes.

Dooode, sweet gig if you can get it. 6 hour days, 38 weeks a year. Regular pay raises despite job performance. No accountability. Strong union to back laziness. And paid summers...well not that one, but still.Oh, and full benefits (free), no one gets that, right?

[timwakefield 68]

Dooode, sweet gig if you can get it. 6 hour days, 38 weeks a year. Regular pay raises despite job performance. No accountability. Strong union to back laziness. And paid summers...well not that one, but still.Oh, and full benefits (free), no one gets that, right?

I don't know the details of the teacher union but I was responding to the general anti-union opinions. Besides, you think teaching 12-year-olds for 7 hours a day is easy (dunno where you went to school for only 6)? And then correcting homework and planning lessons. It's a lot more like 8-9 hours a day, to be fair.EDIT: It seems you were being sarcastic.

[slink 1]

Yeah sarcastic, I teach.

[Spademan 94]

So, just a few years ago (10)

"Few" is definitely not the right word to connote 10. If it makes you feel any better, I would have corrected you on this even if I were back in high school, you were my teacher and we were in class. The girls would laugh. I'd bang the hottest one after the football game and procced grow up to be better looking and more awesome than you and never look back.

[slink 1]

"Few" is definitely not the right word to connote 10. If it makes you feel any better, I would have corrected you on this even if I were back in high school, you were my teacher and we were in class. The girls would laugh. I'd bang the hottest one after the football game and procced grow up to be better looking and more awesome than you and never look back.

LOL, relative to my actual age, 10 years seems like a short time.

[Balloon guy 158]

If we abolished the Dept of Education, put the control back in the states and then cut half the administration jobs, forced them to reuse most books for an extra two years and had year round school...the entire education budget would probably be cut in half and no one would notice how much teachers were ripping off the system....

[hblask 1]

Seriously, I feel like I've wandered into 1924 1824. Boooo unionization, yay for workers being unable to stand up for themselves! And screw those lazy overpaid teachers! Brvheart's comment that they should just hire scabs may have been a joke, but it also may not have. It's tough to tell with him sometimes.

Yeah, I know, I was staying at the summer vacation home of this close friend of ours who is a teacher, and she was saying how hard it is for them to squeak by because The Man keeps crushing her. Then I said "hit it" as she accelerated her 350HP ski boat and I lifted easily from the water, giving her the raised fist of solidarity to show my support of her long arduous battle against the oppression of her evil employers. I mean, at this rate, they'll have to cut back to only taking a spring break vacation to somewhere warm and have to skip the two week one they usually take over the Christmas holiday.And that would be bad, because they pay us to watch their dog while they are gone, and I'd really miss heading out into the ten below weather to go watch their rat-like canine piss in the snow knowing they are on a tropical beach somewhere.

[Balloon guy 158]

Yeah, I know, I was staying at the summer vacation home of this close friend of ours who is a teacher, and she was saying how hard it is for them to squeak by because The Man keeps crushing her. Then I said "hit it" as she accelerated her 350HP ski boat and I lifted easily from the water, giving her the raised fist of solidarity to show my support of her long arduous battle against the oppression of her evil employers. I mean, at this rate, they'll have to cut back to only taking a spring break vacation to somewhere warm and have to skip the two week one they usually take over the Christmas holiday.And that would be bad, because they pay us to watch their dog while they are gone, and I'd really miss heading out into the ten below weather to go watch their rat-like canine piss in the snow knowing they are on a tropical beach somewhere.

But the children...are our...Future

[CaneBrain 95]

Almost 2/3 of Americans think public sector unions should not exist.

http://media.journalinteractive.com/docume...ELEASEFEB17.pdf

[timwakefield 68]

Yeah, I know, I was staying at the summer vacation home of this close friend of ours who is a teacher, and she was saying how hard it is for them to squeak by because The Man keeps crushing her. Then I said "hit it" as she accelerated her 350HP ski boat and I lifted easily from the water, giving her the raised fist of solidarity to show my support of her long arduous battle against the oppression of her evil employers. I mean, at this rate, they'll have to cut back to only taking a spring break vacation to somewhere warm and have to skip the two week one they usually take over the Christmas holiday.And that would be bad, because they pay us to watch their dog while they are gone, and I'd really miss heading out into the ten below weather to go watch their rat-like canine piss in the snow knowing they are on a tropical beach somewhere.

I don't know the details of the teacher union but I was responding to the general anti-union opinions.

Also, most teachers don't own fancy boats. I'm not sure why you think other jobs are more legitimate than teaching, other than the fact that teachers get summers off. Does your friend teach at a private school? I've never heard of 2 weeks off for Christmas. I know that at least a couple of the teachers I had at my very middle-class High School had second jobs over the summer, or even in the evenings and/or weekends. "I know this one teacher who..." is not a good place to start a policy discussion. We can probably agree on that. The time off, of course, is incidental. It's not like teachers are refusing to work year round - it's that we give children plenty of time off, which I think is a good thing.

[brvheart's I Phone 0]

http://media.journalinteractive.com/docume...ELEASEFEB17.pdf

I don't suppose you realized who that poll was conducted by?

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I find it troubling that more and more, the accepted response to any Government action is Organized Protest, rather than dialogue and rational debate.If your Party loses power? Shout down the oppositionIf the Government takes a position with which you disagree? Shout from the square.If a Representative holds a town hall? Scream and disrupt to get on TV.This trend is disturbing. Where the **** are we, Egypt?Those of you who think this is acceptable, did you support the Tea Party actions or "You Lie"?While the Political exchange can be frustrating and slow, it is an acceptable and established CIVILIZED manner of enacting change.I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to do it. I'm saying I'm tired of the entitlement anger that people are using to try and justify this crap.

[hblask 1]

http://media.journalinteractive.com/docume...ELEASEFEB17.pdf

Rather than negotiate with public employee Unions to address budgetissues in Wisconsin, Governor Walker (WALK-ER) has proposed a number ofchanges that would directly affect many public employees in Wisconsin.

The Walker proposal includes not only significant increases in publicemployee contributions for health care and retirement,

Nice unbiased survey there.....You'll have to pardon me if I wait for a survey that wasn't written by union representatives.....Or maybe they could write the questions this way:

Rather than let fair market pricing determine teachers salaries, Unions have used theheavy hand of government to negotiate above-market salaries and benefits. GovernorWalker has proposed that some of these abuses be cut back....

I wonder if the result would be any different.

[hblask 1]

Here's who wrote it:

The Shop Consulting's FoundersMike WhiteLance WalterMike WhiteCo-FounderPrior to co-founding the Shop Consulting in 2002, Mike worked in Democratic Politics for nearly a decade

And amazingly, with those unbiased questions, they got a pro-Democratic result!!! Isn't polling amazing!

[hblask 1]

Also, most teachers don't own fancy boats. I'm not sure why you think other jobs are more legitimate than teaching, other than the fact that teachers get summers off. Does your friend teach at a private school? I've never heard of 2 weeks off for Christmas. I know that at least a couple of the teachers I had at my very middle-class High School had second jobs over the summer, or even in the evenings and/or weekends. "I know this one teacher who..." is not a good place to start a policy discussion. We can probably agree on that. The time off, of course, is incidental. It's not like teachers are refusing to work year round - it's that we give children plenty of time off, which I think is a good thing.

My friend works at a public school. The fact that they can afford multiple vacations AND a vacation home AND a boat, working nine months per year is a pretty important data point. The time off is not incidental, it's a central point. People who work 3/4ths of what most people do, but still make more are in no position to complain that their gravy train is slowing down by a few percent.

[CaneBrain 95]

Here's who wrote it:And amazingly, with those unbiased questions, they got a pro-Democratic result!!! Isn't polling amazing!

I wonder if there is anyone in polling who did not work in politics. This will be a good stock post for all future CATO references or polls posted by Rasmussen.

[hblask 1]

I wonder if there is anyone in polling who did not work in politics. This will be a good stock post for all future CATO references or polls posted by Rasmussen.

It's not so much that they were in politics, it was the wording of the questions, which was about as blatantly slanted as you can get. The fact that they are Democrats is just the icing on the cake.If you need to see what a neutral question looks like and how Wisconsinites answer when presented with one, here's a poll taken right around the election:Q24. Some people say that it's understandable that public employees don't contribute totheir pensions because public sector salaries are lower than salaries paid in the privatesector. Other people say that public sector workers should contribute to their ownpensions like everyone else. Which better describes how you feel?Public employees shouldn’t contribute.............................. 16Public employees should contribute .................................. 80Don't know / Refused........................................................... 4

[timwakefield 68]

My friend works at a public school. The fact that they can afford multiple vacations AND a vacation home AND a boat, working nine months per year is a pretty important data point. The time off is not incidental, it's a central point. People who work 3/4ths of what most people do, but still make more are in no position to complain that their gravy train is slowing down by a few percent.

Like I said, I know very little about the teachers union. I have to say though that your example doesn't account for her husband's salary, or family money, or anything like that. Obviously you know what's going on with them, but you make it sound like she's buying vacation homes and boats on a public school salary. Either she's a brilliant investor, or her husband also has a job I'm guessing.Note: I'm assuming she's married because you refer to her as "they," but you might mean "teachers." It's pretty obvious that most public school teachers don't have vacation homes or boats or anything of the sort though.

[custom36 4]

Ok, so I just got home from, like, a 28 hour shift. My body feels pretty beaten and my attention span is small. But I'll try to fill you guys in as best I can (I hope you care, even if you disagree). From what I've heard from protesters and what I've read here, it seems MSNBC is the only one giving this wall-to-wall coverage (I came here before I hit the news sites...cause I love you assholes). I understand that it conveniently fits in with their viewpoint, but I'm truly grateful for what they've done. BBC is also here and Al-Jazeera has passed on information to the middle east. There's an awesome picture on Reddit from Egypt with a guy saying they stand behind us.CNN (who I hear hasn't been kind for some reason) says that we had over 100,000 people today and judging by the size of the crowd at our 4pm rally, I'm inclined to agree. That's...tremendous. Everyone there between rallies marched around capitol square for 5 hours and we had so many people that you couldn't tell where the parade started. This was while the capitol building itself was packed top to bottom with pro-labor protesters. We had great music and everyone was in a wonderful mood. If you don't know, Wisconsin football has a tradition of jumping in Camp Randall to the "Jump Around" song at the beginning of the 4th quarter. Being a part of that at the Capitol was so, so cool.By my rough, monkey estimate there might have been 2000 counter-protesters. I spent some time over there making sure our marchers didn't try to infiltrate their rally, and to be honest, it was kind of depressing. Everyone was angry and confrontational (it helped me that they didn't know I was pro-union). Aside from screaming at our protesters to get back to work, they had no desire to talk to any of us. One man told me, "You know, back in 1899 when there was no teacher's union, we had a 98% literacy rate. Now look at em." So....yeah.

How are they "Standing Up"? Why aren't they on the airwaves supporting the protesters? I don't get it, forgive me for being naive, but let us know why Dems aren't all over this supporting the protesters...

Yeah, it seems that this has been swept under the rug, probably because if it's broadcast to their (the 2 republicans') voters, they won't get re-elected. But, the crowd was really happy with them when they did it. It took guts to do initially, even if they've backed down since then.I don't understand why the national Democrats have remained silent and it's something that's frustrating a lot of us that have dedicated our time to organizing these rallies. A tweet from Pelosi and a weak statement from Obama (and nothing from Biden, who has been a huge labor supporter) are not what we want from our elected democrats. We hope that we can change their minds by Tuesday, when the Republicans will return to work.

By not going in to work while getting full pay and benefits, they are showing their solidarity.

The walkout wasn't Democrats' plan A, B, C.....or Y. It was their final option. Republicans have been extraordinarily unwilling to compromise on anything (and I think I'll talk more on this a few quotes down) and were determined to rush this bill through. These democrats were elected by many union, and non-union but pro-union, citizens and were doing what they had to do to stand up for their constituents. I give them all the respect in the world. And given that the people they represent are (I assume) pretty democratic, they've likely solidified their jobs for as long as they want them.

I'm proud of you son even though I totally disagree with you.But your state elected Republicans in a landslide so your 85% can't be correct.

That you, an older republican friend of mine, are proud of what I'm doing means more to me than you know.Quinnipiac (sp?) released a poll last night that showed 52% of Wisconsin voters do not support this bill and 43% support it. I haven't seen any other polls, but if 52% is close, that means that some people who voted in these republicans also don't like this bill. In fact, I've seen several signs that say "I am republican and hate this bill / support you/ am pro-union" as well as a few that said "I identified as republican until this week." Though I was pessimistic at the beginning of this, we really are changing minds.

Then the vast majority of the country has received the exact same type of pay cut why should teachers be exempt?

This is something that's been grossly misreported by both Fox and CNN (again, from what I've heard). Teachers are NOT protesting paying more for their benefits. In fact, and they made this point all day today, they agreed to accept those weeks ago. What they're protesting is losing their right to collectively bargain. This affects much more than pay and benefits - it would mean they have no say in average class size, working conditions, conditions for students, and other things I can't think of right now. Every teacher I spoke with wishes it was different, but is willing to pay more into their benefits.

Because they want to get re-elected and the majority of the people in WI don't support their cause. At least that's what 20 of Hblask's relatives are saying.

This made me laugh.

In order to maintain my detached aloofness to the issues allowing me to declare my opinion without fear of being tainted by the left or the right I have purposefully not clicked the link on the OP and have only caught bits and pieces on the news.As such I am unaware of what exactly the people are protesting.But I heard on Rush's show that they are mostly upset about two things:1. The increase in their shared payment for their health care from less than 5% to around 12% with the government paying the other 78%, and increasing their retirement contribution to half.2. Something about them not being allowed to change this via strikes ( collective bargaining )Whatever happened to JFK's speech; "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"?

It's funny that you don't want to be tainted by the left or right, but you're listening to Rush. And, unsurpringly, he's either misinformed or lying (I lean toward the latter, but I also can't stand him).1. This was offered as a concession multiple times by the unions, but Walker has spent the last month completely ignoring them (at the time it was 10%, but they said Friday they'd go to 12% as well.) I heard many teachers, including one of the speakers, say that they'd go to 15% if it would get this done. When the speaker said it, the crowd erupted in applause. We're willing to negotiate, but Walker won't budge an inch. He wants unions gone.2. Yes, we're protesting to keep collective bargaining. But the teachers are NOT fighting for the ability to go on strike, which has been illegal in the state for a while now.It's funny you used a JFK quote, as he was decidedly pro-union. I have a picture of a sign that quotes JFK touting all the great things unions had done.

Just watched the news and heard some of these wonderful people who are teaching our kids say things like "this isn't how a democracy works" and we "should have a say in this." Well this is exactly how a democracy works, you had your say in it, you backed the wrong horse and got you asses kicked. STFU and get back to your jobs.

I'd have to see some context, but this seems like an opportune time to say yesterday and today brought out a few strange people. It's bound to happen with so many there, I guess. The crowd's favorite chant this week is "This is what democracy looks like."

I find it troubling that more and more, the accepted response to any Government action is Organized Protest, rather than dialogue and rational debate.If your Party loses power? Shout down the oppositionIf the Government takes a position with which you disagree? Shout from the square.If a Representative holds a town hall? Scream and disrupt to get on TV.This trend is disturbing. Where the **** are we, Egypt?Those of you who think this is acceptable, did you support the Tea Party actions or "You Lie"?While the Political exchange can be frustrating and slow, it is an acceptable and established CIVILIZED manner of enacting change.I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to do it. I'm saying I'm tired of the entitlement anger that people are using to try and justify this crap.

I can see it becoming a nationwide (worldwide?) trend that's misused. But here, it was our last option. This isn't because the Dems lost power - not at all. Here are things that, from what I've gathered, the media (less msnbc) hasn't told the nation:- When Jim Doyle (again, an otherwise terrible governor) left office, he left us with a 2011 budget surplus of $3 million. When Walker came in, the first thing he did was give businesses tax cuts (among other things) that totaled $140 million (putting us $137 million in the red - the number may be off, but not by much). Now, I understand that tax cuts can be used to bring business in. However, the requirement businesses must meet to get this $315/new employee tax cut is that they must hire at least 15 new employees to be eligible. So this does nothing for small business. All of these numbers have been confirmed by the Fiscal Bureau, which is nonpartisan and respected by both parties. I believe the Fiscal Bureau said that his tax cuts will not have a significant impact on the state.- Without those tax cuts, none of this would be happening. The tax cuts gave him his 'budget crisis' which he believed gave him enough reason to present this repair bill that would get rid of unions. Ending the ability to collectively bargain saves the state no money. It's become quite clear that his first goal as governor was to end unions for public workers.- They're making cuts to medicaid, medicare, badgercare, and any other lower income medical program. The people I talked to said they were substantial cuts that would cripple the programs and essentially end badgercare (which is pretty widely used). I should be able to confirm/change this statement tomorrow.- The labor unions have tried since the day Walker won the election to extend olive branches and negotiate with the new Republican regime. State republicans have refused to even acknowledge them. - Just to give you an idea of the tone the republicans have set here, the following is video of the Republicans attempting to rush through a vote on amendments in the assembly while the Democrats are gone, which is very against the rules in Wisconsin. As soon as the Democrats run in, the minority leader goes on a wonderful tirade. Republicans Chastised by Dem Minority LeaderI'll be happy to answer any questions you guys have on the issue. I understand that many (most?) of you are anti-union and I respect that. But I'd rather you be anti-union with all the facts. On a personal note, I've met many international union leaders and news people this weekend who have just been extremely warm and generous. The police on duty have been very friendly and every one I've talked to supports what we're doing. They said before we left that they didn't make one arrest today - I'm extremely proud to be a Wisconsinite today.

[custom36 4]

Oh, and I saw that Glenn Beck said we've been organized by the Muslim Brotherhood.So, uh...praise Allah?Edit - Also, we have been neither disruptive nor rioting. I'm very happy to report that, while loud, everyone has been very peaceful and kind - simply ignoring the anti-union protesters today (well, aside from the FOX LIES! guy I just saw on Gawker)

[hblask 1]

This affects much more than pay and benefits - it would mean they have no say in average class size, working conditions, conditions for students, and other things I can't think of right now.

Hey, here's a crazy idea -- if they care about students and class size, why not fight for school choice instead of fighting for the right to protect crappy teachers from ever being fired. You should have your pals offer up "backpack funding" as a *real* compromise, and see if the Republicans will talk then.

- When Jim Doyle (again, an otherwise terrible governor) left office, he left us with a 2011 budget surplus of $3 million. When Walker came in, the first thing he did was give businesses tax cuts (among other things) that totaled $140 million (putting us $137 million in the red - the number may be off, but not by much). Now, I understand that tax cuts can be used to bring business in. However, the requirement businesses must meet to get this $315/new employee tax cut is that they must hire at least 15 new employees to be eligible. So this does nothing for small business. All of these numbers have been confirmed by the Fiscal Bureau, which is nonpartisan and respected by both parties. I believe the Fiscal Bureau said that his tax cuts will not have a significant impact on the state.

This is the Lie Of The Day. The Wisconsin budget deficit is $3.6 Billion, with a B. These tax breaks were around $300 Million -- with an M. This is just the Democrats using stupid people's confusion with big numbers. Even without the tax breaks, it's still over a $3 BILLION dollar deficit.

[custom36 4]

Hey, here's a crazy idea -- if they care about students and class size, why not fight for school choice instead of fighting for the right to protect crappy teachers from ever being fired. You should have your pals offer up "backpack funding" as a *real* compromise, and see if the Republicans will talk then.

Because that's not the issue Scott Walker is fighting for. This isn't just teachers - every type of public service worker is out there. Aside from the snow plow guys, who have gone home for the night to prepare for the giant snowstorm we're apparently about to have.And also because school choice wouldn't do what you think it will do. It's a terrible idea, in my (and others') opinion. But, I'm not looking to get off track here.

This is the Lie Of The Day. The Wisconsin budget deficit is $3.6 Billion, with a B. These tax breaks were around $300 Million -- with an M. This is just the Democrats using stupid people's confusion with big numbers. Even without the tax breaks, it's still over a $3 BILLION dollar deficit.

Have you read the Fiscal Bureau's report? Is it in there? Because....I'm pretty sure it's not.But given the way you've "debated" in this thread, it probably doesn't matter.