Union Worker Protests In Wi

[Balloon guy 158]

It's funny that you don't want to be tainted by the left or right, but you're listening to Rush. And, unsurpringly, he's either misinformed or lying (I lean toward the latter, but I also can't stand him).

I'm not wanting to be untainted, I just don't pay attention much. I only listened to Rush for a brief time and I don't pay that close attention when I drive because I am 10 and 2 just in case there are any SHOW horses being towed around.But Rush is awesome, always. Your loss for missing his awesomeness.

1. This was offered as a concession multiple times by the unions, but Walker has spent the last month completely ignoring them (at the time it was 10%, but they said Friday they'd go to 12% as well.) I heard many teachers, including one of the speakers, say that they'd go to 15% if it would get this done. When the speaker said it, the crowd erupted in applause. We're willing to negotiate, but Walker won't budge an inch. He wants unions gone.

This is a good thing, thanks for straightening me out.

2. Yes, we're protesting to keep collective bargaining. But the teachers are NOT fighting for the ability to go on strike, which has been illegal in the state for a while now.

I was in a union for 8 years, my brother is a steward for the Teamsters. I understand unions. As a rule they are not a good thing for public employees imo because they are a step towards Jefferson's fear that 'once they start to vote themselves money, the republic will fail' roughly paraphrased.

It's funny you used a JFK quote, as he was decidedly pro-union. I have a picture of a sign that quotes JFK touting all the great things unions had done.

I liked a lot of things JFK stood for, tax cuts etc. But I don't think unions are still necessary like they were back in the day.

- I'm extremely proud to be a Wisconsinite today.

It must take a lot to admit that........ End of the day I still like that you are you doing your thing, more power to you.But now the Tea Party is here...better get ready to have everything spun your way....

[custom36 4]

End of the day I still like that you are you doing your thing, more power to you.But now the Tea Party is here...better get ready to have everything spun your way....

Thank you for the kind words and respect.Here's the strange thing - as of 6:00pm, all indications were that the Tea Party had not registered for a permit to rally tomorrow. Maybe it's the snowstorm, but if they only have one small rally, it's just going to look weak. I left at 6 though, so it's possible they registered last minute. I'm not real sure what their plan is right now.Tomorrow's pro-labor rally will be held inside the capitol building due to rain/sleet/snow, so it will "only" be maybe 10,000 people. But many of us will be there in spirit, and watching on TV. While I nurse my sunburn.

[custom36 4]

I was in a union for 8 years, my brother is a steward for the Teamsters. I understand unions. As a rule they are not a good thing for public employees imo because they are a step towards Jefferson's fear that 'once they start to vote themselves money, the republic will fail' roughly paraphrased.

After rereading, this is an interesting reason that I've never heard before. I can totally respect where you're coming from with this.

[hblask 1]

Have you read the Fiscal Bureau's report? Is it in there? Because....I'm pretty sure it's not.

Check the facts, jack, instead of union propaganda.Every single source I look up has the budget listed at 3.6 Billion. The largest estimate for the tax breaks is 300 Million, many list them as smaller.Maybe that kind of stuff works on uneducated factory workers, but this forum is a bit more numerically savvy.

[hblask 1]

After rereading, this is an interesting reason that I've never heard before. I can totally respect where you're coming from with this.

You've never heard that? It's the central argument against public employees union, number one on the list.Do you see why it seems you are a bit out of touch with what the rest of the state thinks? Leave your union pals once in a while and talk to some people who have regular jobs.And just for kicks, and to show you how old and central this argument is, here is leftist hero FDR on public sector unions:

"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service" -- FDR, 1937

[custom36 4]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm done responding to you hblask. Clearly you refuse to listen to reason and, ya know, facts which does not lend itself to constructive debate. When you finish listening to the 20 people you know in Wisconsin, be sure to look at what 100,000 public and private, union and non-union, republican and democratic protesters said on Saturday.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Check the facts, jack, instead of union propaganda.Every single source I look up has the budget listed at 3.6 Billion. The largest estimate for the tax breaks is 300 Million, many list them as smaller.Maybe that kind of stuff works on uneducated factory workers, but this forum is a bit more numerically savvy.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_0...amp;Darling.pdfThere is some comparing of different things. When they talk budget shortfall they aren't talking about the deficiti it seems.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Check the facts, jack, instead of union propaganda.Every single source I look up has the budget listed at 3.6 Billion. The largest estimate for the tax breaks is 300 Million, many list them as smaller.Maybe that kind of stuff works on uneducated factory workers, but this forum is a bit more numerically savvy.

This is the first line from the entire article in your link.Wisconsin faces a budget shortfall of $137 million for the current FY2011 and the prospect of a $3.6 billion hole in the coming two-year budget.

[hblask 1]

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_0...amp;Darling.pdfThere is some comparing of different things. When they talk budget shortfall they aren't talking about the deficiti it seems.

So then the unions are playing even more to the economic illiteracy of most people? (Yawn). This is like Obama's attempt to confuse people by saying he's reducing deficits by x%, when we are still taking on additional debt and spending is still increasing. If you say a bunch of numbers really fast, peoples' brains shut off and forget what the real issue. This appears to be what the unions are doing in WI.The state is 3.6 BILLION in debt. That needs to be dealt with, and it can't if they keep making long-term commitments that will grow over time.

[hblask 1]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm done responding to you hblask. Clearly you refuse to listen to reason and, ya know, facts which does not lend itself to constructive debate. When you finish listening to the 20 people you know in Wisconsin, be sure to look at what 100,000 public and private, union and non-union, republican and democratic protesters said on Saturday.

Are you denying that Wisconsin is $3.6 billion dollars in debt?Are you denying the FDR was opposed to public sector unions?Are you denying that voters threw out Democrats so that the Republicans could do exactly this?In case you don't believe this last one, here's a post from Reddit from someone on your side:

How many of you went out and knocked on doors? How many made phone calls? How many attended rallies? How many attended fundraisers? Except for a select few, EVERYONE dropped the ball. I know, because I was the one calling and asking you to come and knock on doors. I was the one you told it is too difficult to make a phone call. I was the one you told "maybe" when I asked you to come to a rally. Voting is not enough!What Wisconsin Governor Walker is doing now was not a secret during the campaign. Everyone knew this was going to happen, he said so multiple times in plain english! No one paid attention. People like me who work on campaigns saw this coming, and there was nothing we could do to motivate you. PLEASE think about this the next time there is an election. As shown by the amazing demonstrations going on right now, a single voice DOES matter. You can make a difference. Voting is important, but you can multiply your vote by encouraging others when you volunteer.In January of 2013, do you want to be asking yourself, "why didn't I get involved six months ago?"

Which particular fact has you particularly upset?

[FCP Bob 1,312]

So then the unions are playing even more to the economic illiteracy of most people? (Yawn). This is like Obama's attempt to confuse people by saying he's reducing deficits by x%, when we are still taking on additional debt and spending is still increasing. If you say a bunch of numbers really fast, peoples' brains shut off and forget what the real issue. This appears to be what the unions are doing in WI.The state is 3.6 BILLION in debt. That needs to be dealt with, and it can't if they keep making long-term commitments that will grow over time.

Well Henry you've been implying that is how high the deficit is for 2011 when it isn't so you've also been playing fast and loose with the numbers to support your position.The projected deficit is that high in the future but the current deficit isn't.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

It's funny that I'm arguing against Henry because when it comes to Public Sector Unions I'm actually pretty close to his position but in general I don't like rigid ideologue's positions.Here in Toronto we have a new Conservative Mayor who I voted for who is trying to contract out some city services away from the Unions to save money and I fully support him. Also the Teacher's Unions here are too powerful. My problem with them isn't the amount of money that teachers are paid but the stranglehold on innovation and efficiency that they have that holds a lot of things back and costs extra money.Edit: While I think Public Sector Unions need to have a lot of their power taken away one of the signs of a free society is the ability for people to collectively bargain and form unions. Henry likes to talk about the slippery slope a lot and to me limiting people's collective bargaining rights is a sign of a not free society.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Well Henry you've been implying that is how high the deficit is for 2011 when it isn't so you've also been playing fast and loose with the numbers to support your position.The projected deficit is that high in the future but the current deficit isn't.

The subject is the bill Gov. Walker is trying to pass.This quote below is from different article than the ones linked above. "Wisconsin faces a $3.6 billion budget shortfall over the next two years. Walker’s first move is a bill to address an immediate $137 million hole by, among other things, requiring most public workers to pay half their pension costs (up from zero) and 12.6 percent of their health-care costs (up from about 6 percent). The bill also curtails the institutional advantages that have fueled public-sector union power, including collective bargaining" The bolded is to deal with the future budget shortfalls which will be ever growing if things stay as is. The bolded is also the part the union leaders claim to have a problem with, they say they don't have a problem with contributing to thier benefits this year. (Why not agree, they can just negotiate them back in bigger and better when the dems are back in power), which is the whole point Henry is making. The State withholds union dues from all state employees, they then spend a bulk of this money to elect people they will later negotiate with to set their benefit package for future years. What could possibly go wrong.

[hblask 1]

Well Henry you've been implying that is how high the deficit is for 2011 when it isn't so you've also been playing fast and loose with the numbers to support your position.The projected deficit is that high in the future but the current deficit isn't.

I wasn't quoting numbers at all until the lie that everything was hunky-dory until Walker got into office got brought up -- a flagrant lie. I just stated that 300M (in short-term obligations) is nothing out of 3.6B (in long-term obligations). I just assumed the context was clear. I think the other side, saying there would be no budget issues if not for the $300M in tax breaks, can only be taken as a flagrant lie, when there is a huge outstanding debt.

It's funny that I'm arguing against Henry because when it comes to Public Sector Unions I'm actually pretty close to his position but in general I don't like rigid ideologue's positions.Here in Toronto we have a new Conservative Mayor who I voted for who is trying to contract out some city services away from the Unions to save money and I fully support him. Also the Teacher's Unions here are too powerful. My problem with them isn't the amount of money that teachers are paid but the stranglehold on innovation and efficiency that they have that holds a lot of things back and costs extra money.Edit: While I think Public Sector Unions need to have a lot of their power taken away one of the signs of a free society is the ability for people to collectively bargain and form unions. Henry likes to talk about the slippery slope a lot and to me limiting people's collective bargaining rights is a sign of a not free society.

I didn't feel like you were arguing against me, just trying to keep the facts straight, something I support. I think the facts support my side on this one, so I want them as clear as possible.And like you, I have no problem with people organizing for better pay and benefits. I do have a problem when that turns into a government-favored bargaining right considered more important than the equal right of employers to fire their lazy asses and replace them. Either you don't need government to support your cause because you are right, or else you are using the force of government to steal from your neighbors who would do the job for less. You can't claim you are underpaid AND that you need the force of government to prevent others from voluntarily taking your job at a lower pay rate. Such a claim denies the laws of economics.And yes, the harm the unions do to innovation and improvement in schools is their PRIMARY problem. Look at custom's response to the suggestion that parents be allowed to choose a school: OH NOES THAT WOULD BE TERRIBLE! Yeah, because union bureaucrats know what my kids need more than me. This is the #1 reason why teachers unions must go away. I think good teachers should make hundreds of thousands of dollars and have the best benefits package in the country, as long as bad teachers can be fired today and mediocre teachers have to decide if they want mediocre pay or work harder to improve their skills. This BS about tenure and seniority is extremely harmful to students.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I wasn't quoting numbers at all until the lie that everything was hunky-dory until Walker got into office got brought up -- a flagrant lie. I just stated that 300M (in short-term obligations) is nothing out of 3.6B (in long-term obligations). I just assumed the context was clear. I think the other side, saying there would be no budget issues if not for the $300M in tax breaks, can only be taken as a flagrant lie, when there is a huge outstanding debt.I didn't feel like you were arguing against me, just trying to keep the facts straight, something I support. I think the facts support my side on this one, so I want them as clear as possible.And like you, I have no problem with people organizing for better pay and benefits. I do have a problem when that turns into a government-favored bargaining right considered more important than the equal right of employers to fire their lazy asses and replace them. Either you don't need government to support your cause because you are right, or else you are using the force of government to steal from your neighbors who would do the job for less. You can't claim you are underpaid AND that you need the force of government to prevent others from voluntarily taking your job at a lower pay rate. Such a claim denies the laws of economics.And yes, the harm the unions do to innovation and improvement in schools is their PRIMARY problem. Look at custom's response to the suggestion that parents be allowed to choose a school: OH NOES THAT WOULD BE TERRIBLE! Yeah, because union bureaucrats know what my kids need more than me. This is the #1 reason why teachers unions must go away. I think good teachers should make hundreds of thousands of dollars and have the best benefits package in the country, as long as bad teachers can be fired today and mediocre teachers have to decide if they want mediocre pay or work harder to improve their skills. This BS about tenure and seniority is extremely harmful to students.

I love the bolded paragraph. Do I have you permission to steal it?custom, I respect your passion, but you are on the wrong side in this one.I was in my early teen years when Reagan fired the the air traffic controllers, everyone in town thought this was bad. A lot of people in town worked for an aluminum plant, that was union. My father, who had recently quit the plant, was not as sympathetic. He said that the only thing the thing the union did was keep people that needed to be fired from getting fired. My father's statement was over simplistic and not completely accurate, but as I learned more about the unions, I realized they weren't what they were advertised to be. In college, of course I was indoctrinated on the evils of capitalism and capitalists (a secondary text for one of my classes was "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair). While this made it easier to understand how and why unions were formed, it didn't square with the current standards of the mid 1980's. Here are some articles written from a different point of view if you are interested:http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260...idea-rich-lowry

[custom36 4]

custom, I respect your passion, but you are on the wrong side in this one.

Reasonable people can disagree. Just make sure you're doing it with accurate information and an open mind.FWIW, I agree that great teachers should be paid more and bad teachers should be fired (or suspended w/o pay until re-educated) as soon as possible. I think most teachers have the same belief - the ones I've spoken to anyway. That's not the issue here though.Edit - Among the many things they've lied about, Fox News this morning compared us to the man who shot Arizona's congresswoman multiple times. These people shouldn't be allowed to call themselves journalists, or even reporters. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but it's sickening to me.

[hblask 1]

FWIW, I agree that great teachers should be paid more and bad teachers should be fired (or suspended w/o pay until re-educated) as soon as possible. I think most teachers have the same belief - the ones I've spoken to anyway. That's not the issue here though.

So have the unions suggest that to break this impasse, they give up all tenure immediately and give school superintendents sole discretion over salaries and benefits, and agree that those things will never be part of the union's power again.No? Didn't think so.

Edit - Among the many things they've lied about, Fox News this morning compared us to the man who shot Arizona's congresswoman multiple times. These people shouldn't be allowed to call themselves journalists, or even reporters. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but it's sickening to me.

I think FOX has decided to give up on news and just go into the business of 'trolling liberals'. I based this on the skill they bring to each of these areas. It's like they are not even pretending anymore, except for a few shows.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Reasonable people can disagree. Just make sure you're doing it with accurate information and an open mind.FWIW, I agree that great teachers should be paid more and bad teachers should be fired (or suspended w/o pay until re-educated) as soon as possible. I think most teachers have the same belief - the ones I've spoken to anyway. That's not the issue here though.Edit - Among the many things they've lied about, Fox News this morning compared us to the man who shot Arizona's congresswoman multiple times. These people shouldn't be allowed to call themselves journalists, or even reporters. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but it's sickening to me.

I haven't watched fox, but there are quite a few different things going on now. You have to understand how pissed off people are that all the Hitler signs ect. that were made the center of the MSM tea party coverage, are now absent in MSM. This is because of the complete corruption of all television news media. They are extremely one sided. I will also note that many posters on this forum and this thread used pictures of signs ect. to demonize the tea party, but are now ignoring them to support this movement. If Fox is misrepresenting your action, then shame on them. Like I said I haven't been watching their coverage. From what I have seen, the demonstration has been overwhelmingly peaceful considering the numbers involved. Of course there are a few bad apples, but they are not representative of most of the group. The exact same thing can be said about all the tea party rallys. Unions have in the past encouraged violence many, many times. If you really want to understand the opposition position, you can read from the links below. You will find some rhetoric, but most is in response to rhetoric used by media and President Obama to point our obvious hypocracy. http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260...idea-rich-lowryhttp://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260...sconsin-editorshttp://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260...michelle-malkin

[custom36 4]

So have the unions suggest that to break this impasse, they give up all tenure immediately and give school superintendents sole discretion over salaries and benefits, and agree that those things will never be part of the union's power again.No? Didn't think so.

Again, that's not the issue here. And to be honest, even if they have (I'm not privy to negotiation details, obviously) I don't think Walker would accept it. He's made it very clear that this is an issue he will not waver on and he will not accept any proposal that doesn't include eliminating collective bargaining rights.This entire thread has focused on teachers, but they're only a small part of the protests. There are thousands of Wisconsin firefighters here, lots of off-duty police officers (and the on-duty ones have privately expressed support), social workers, public defenders, locksmiths, and on and on and on. Don't forget these guys. They're protesting as hard as anyone. The firefighters are actually on the front lines here.

I think FOX has decided to give up on news and just go into the business of 'trolling liberals'. I based this on the skill they bring to each of these areas. It's like they are not even pretending anymore, except for a few shows.

This made me smile.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Again, that's not the issue here. And to be honest, even if they have (I'm not privy to negotiation details, obviously) I don't think Walker would accept it. He's made it very clear that this is an issue he will not waver on and he will not accept any proposal that doesn't include eliminating collective bargaining rights.This entire thread has focused on teachers, but they're only a small part of the protests. There are thousands of Wisconsin firefighters here, lots of off-duty police officers (and the on-duty ones have privately expressed support), social workers, public defenders, locksmiths, and on and on and on. Don't forget these guys. They're protesting as hard as anyone. The firefighters are actually on the front lines here.This made me smile.

Firefighters, policeman, and State Troopers are exempt from the collective barganing restrictions of this bill. I don't understand why, except that apparently Wisconson citizens have no problem whatsoever abandoning thier posts the second they don't get their way.

[custom36 4]

I haven't watched fox, but there are quite a few different things going on now. You have to understand how pissed off people are that all the Hitler signs ect. that were made the center of the MSM tea party coverage, are now absent in MSM. This is because of the complete corruption of all television news media. They are extremely one sided. I will also note that many posters on this forum and this thread used pictures of signs ect. to demonize the tea party, but are now ignoring them to support this movement.

I'm not sure if you're implying there are a lot of hitler comparisons in our protest, but even if you're not, I want to get in front of this: Yes, there are some hitler comparisons, but they are few and far between. The only real criticism I have of some protesters is that there are too many signs calling Walker a dictator and comparing him to Mubarak. As the crowd gets bigger, they become a smaller and smaller minority, but I still don't like seeing them. Walker is no dictator, he's an American politician.I will check out the links you've provided, thanks for that.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I'm not sure if you're implying there are a lot of hitler comparisons in our protest, but even if you're not, I want to get in front of this: Yes, there are some hitler comparisons, but they are few and far between. The only real criticism I have of some protesters is that there are too many signs calling Walker a dictator and comparing him to Mubarak. As the crowd gets bigger, they become a smaller and smaller minority, but I still don't like seeing them. Walker is no dictator, he's an American politician.I will check out the links you've provided, thanks for that.

No, not at all. I don't know how many there are. The only point I was making, is that in the tea party rallys these were the center of reporting. These people were made to look like the bulk of the movement, which was an intentional misrepresentation. I imagine most people are like you and passionately believe they are supporting a worthy cause.I again want to personally support you. You have taken action about something you believe passionately. You will recieve feedback, some positive and some negative, and you will grow from this experience.

[custom36 4]

No, not at all. I don't know how many there are. The only point I was making, is that in the tea party rallys these were the center of reporting. These people were made to look like the bulk of the movement, which was an intentional misrepresentation.

Yeah, I saw that, and I'm worried (paranoid, maybe) that it will happen to us as well. There are so many problems with the American media. I wish there was an effective way I could change that. It's part of the reason I keep coming back to this subforum.And as I've said to the others, ty for the kind words. I wasn't near this passionate on Tuesday, but the more stories I hear from people and the more I see us being demonized by the right, the more passionate I get. These are really kind, hard-working people, not greedy freeloaders.I've read 2 of your links (trying to get through Malkin's...but I really hate this woman) and they've been informational for sure. The only criticism I have (is minor) is that the teachers did not bring their students to these protests. The students organized by themselves and marched from their schools (or came with their parents). They've been, by far, the loudest and most energized supporters during the week. From middle school to the UW, when they come parading down the street, it's kind of cool to see. Even if they don't fully understand what's going on.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I've read 2 of your links (trying to get through Malkin's...but I really hate this woman) and they've been informational for sure. The only criticism I have (is minor) is that the teachers did not bring their students to these protests. The students organized by themselves and marched from their schools (or came with their parents). They've been, by far, the loudest and most energized supporters during the week. From middle school to the UW, when they come parading down the street, it's kind of cool to see. Even if they don't fully understand what's going on.

LOL! I almost didn't include Malkin's because she is much more vitriolic, but that piece was written for NRO so I figured it would be toned down a little bit. The Governer himself has called the public employees good and hard working.

[hblask 1]