Balloon guy 158 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 And your argument is to imply that teachers and doctors are better.You are trying to argue that rich people's income should not be treated the same as another person's because rich people don't deserve their money as much?Most rich people I know started with little and worked a long time before they were rich. Funny how their decades of sacrifice is of less value to you than a person who went to school for 4 years and now has a job that they can't be fired from.I guess you are against giving a corporation a tax break for buying new equipment too, since they have old stuff and they don't deserve their money as much as a small company that makes cookies out of tofu Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 And your argument is to imply that teachers and doctors are better.You are trying to argue that rich people's income should not be treated the same as another person's because rich people don't deserve their money as much?Most rich people I know started with little and worked a long time before they were rich. Funny how their decades of sacrifice is of less value to you than a person who went to school for 4 years and now has a job that they can't be fired from.I guess you are against giving a corporation a tax break for buying new equipment too, since they have old stuff and they don't deserve their money as much as a small company that makes cookies out of tofuNo, I'm for treating their income equally. Not treating their income differently. It's not a hard concept. No special tax rate for capital gains and an actual progressive tax system not because anyone is better than anyone else but because those who make tons can afford to pay more in taxes.If we had an actual progressive tax system, my effective tax rate would not be the same as or greater than people who make hundreds of millions per year. Nice speech though.edit: Since conservatives are always calling our tax system "class warfare", I just wish that I would get to enjoy a country with an actual progressive tax system. It would make the "class warfare" rhetoric more bearable if it were actually rooted in some sort of facts. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Sorry, if you want to bring up how a 'rich guy' shouldn't pay a lower rate than a doctor or teacher, you are the one engaging in class warfare.And there is a clear need to treat different income different.Your blanket assumption that all capital gains is equal shows that you are just stuck on "Get the rich" and not on facts.It is also not a zero sum game. Your life involvement is lower than Bill Gates. He makes tens of thousands of people employed, he invests in companies like Apple to allow them to create what they've created, employing more people ion the process. Rich people have value, just because you want to demonize them and act like the problem of government overspending is all their fault is class warfare.The left is incapable of understanding basic economics, and this is why they fail in the argument for why the rich should pay more taxes. And the funny thing is that there is a reason, but because 'they can afford it' is just stupid lazy class warfare. Link to post Share on other sites
akoff 0 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 BG - there is a reason this web site is dead, you have a handful libs so far out they think BHO is center....you have a couple people willing to argue with them...and the rest is dead.For Crist sake Bob tries to act like a moderate...LOL that is funny funny stuff.The lack of posts says it all Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 As always, it's not one-dimensional, but all else being equal, if your rights are up for sale, the rich will have more rights than the poor -- and that is why the inequality in the US is growing.I can for sure agree with this although I think most societies are Plutocracies. I think that is probably the natural state of things. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Yes, I think my effective tax rate should be lower than people making 202 million dollars per year and I don't think that makes me a commie or someone in favor of gouging the ultra-rich. Nor do I think that is unfair. At all.Your article was supposed to be about how unfair we are being to the top 400 but I think the fact that their effective tax rate is equal to mine and lower than my father's rate shows that is completely and utterly false. The stuff about Buffet and looting the treasury is panicky BS, trying to save a lost argument. If that nonsense were true, everyone in the top 400 would be clamoring for higher taxes, not just Warren Buffet.Asking such a small group to basically pay for everyone else is insanely immoral, not to mention counterproductive. If govt is to benefit all, then all should pay for it.And no, the Buffet thing is not BS, there are multiple articles about how he uses his govt connections to create taxes to eliminate competition and benefit from policy. Why are you guys so ready to believe it when some unknown author writes something about the Koch brothers, but just refuse to acknowledge that St. Buffet could possibly have a flaw, no matter how well documented? Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I'm thinking it is unlikely that people making 202 million per year on average are losing money on too many investments. Then you really don't understand how investing works.And, yes, I do believe that income is income and we should treat it all the same. I think the idea that the money rich people make is "better" than the money a doctor or a teacher makes is gross.So flat tax, then? Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 No, I'm for treating their income equally. Not treating their income differently. It's not a hard concept. No special tax rate for capital gains and an actual progressive tax system not because anyone is better than anyone else but because those who make tons can afford to pay more in taxes.If we had an actual progressive tax system, my effective tax rate would not be the same as or greater than people who make hundreds of millions per year. Nice speech though.edit: Since conservatives are always calling our tax system "class warfare", I just wish that I would get to enjoy a country with an actual progressive tax system. It would make the "class warfare" rhetoric more bearable if it were actually rooted in some sort of facts.Based on percentile of income vs percentile of taxes, the US is one of the most progressive in the world, far more progressive than those adored EU countries that progressives always want us to emulate.Facts matter. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Based on percentile of income vs percentile of taxes, the US is one of the most progressive in the world, far more progressive than those adored EU countries that progressives always want us to emulate.Facts matter.Can you explain what you mean by the bolded. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Can you explain what you mean by the bolded.The top 1%/5%/10% pays a far larger percentage of the total taxes in the US than in most other countries. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 The top 1%/5%/10% pays a far larger percentage of the total taxes in the US than in most other countries.But that's simple math as a result of the US having greater income inequality than other rich countries do.The top 1%/5% and 10% have a far larger percentage of National Income and wealth in the US than in other rich Western countries. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 But that's simple math as a result of the US having greater income inequality than other rich countries do.The top 1%/5% and 10% have a far larger percentage of National Income and wealth in the US than in other rich Western countries.But it doesn't change the fact that our effective taxes are far more progressive than almost any other country. Yet that's not good enough for the class-warfarists. I get they feeling they won't be satisfied until it's 100% on anything over that particular person's own income. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 But it doesn't change the fact that our effective taxes are far more progressive than almost any other country. Yet that's not good enough for the class-warfarists. I get they feeling they won't be satisfied until it's 100% on anything over that particular person's own income.No, they aren't.It's simple math and percentages and rich Americans pay less of their income as a percentage than the rich in other comparable rich Western countries do.Your stat does not prove the point you are trying to make.Soaking the rich is much more popular in most other countries than the US. Link to post Share on other sites
FCP Bob 1,312 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 http://www.oecd.org/document/60/0,3746,en_2649_34533_1942460_1_1_1_1,00.htmlData from the OECD on tax rates in the rich countries Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 But it doesn't change the fact that our effective taxes are far more progressive than almost any other country. Yet that's not good enough for the class-warfarists. I get they feeling they won't be satisfied until it's 100% on anything over that particular person's own income.Well right now, the effective tax rate difference between me and the average member of the top 400 is zero. And I think it should be higher. So obviously I think it should be 100% of the 200 million gap between our incomes. Right.Lol, pretty hard to take you seriously anymore.No, me having the same tax rate as warren buffet isn't good enough for me. Because I'm a class warfarist. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Uh-huh, sure. It's not 100%, it's just always higher than it currently is, no matter what that level is.Hint: you'll have a much better time financially in life if you give up on the envy thing and worry more about your own choices. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I don't think my desire that people making 200 million per year pay a higher tax rate than me is based on envy as much as common sense.I think the idea that a person can't handle having views on ideal tax rates and make sound financial decisions in their personal life is pretty amusing but thanks for the pro tip.I think that perusing the list of flat tax countries was definitely interesting. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I don't think my desire that people making 200 million per year pay a higher tax rate than me is based on envy as much as common sense.They do. Link to post Share on other sites
akoff 0 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Well right now, the effective tax rate difference between me and the average member of the top 400 is zero. And I think it should be higher. So obviously I think it should be 100% of the 200 million gap between our incomes. Right.Lol, pretty hard to take you seriously anymore.No, me having the same tax rate as warren buffet isn't good enough for me. it sounds as if you are begining to see the light...what i am hearing is the start of logical thought and the realization that 250 or 300k per year doesn't make you rich!! next thing will be you want to lower the tax rate on people making less then 1m...and then you will want to lower it on capital gains...you could be a Rep in a few short years!!honestly this whole arguement is nuts, rich people pay the bulk of taxes. You can certainly argue they should or they should pay more but just because money is hidden thru reinvestment, loses, trusts and so forth doesn't mean they aren't paying the load. Even Cane has figured out what makes you rich is way beyond what normal people think.Our problem is spending not taxes. We should be striving to achive the top not looking to bring it down. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 They do.Not according to the article Henry linked. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Not according to the article Henry linked.They pay a higher rate on the things that have higher rates.If all income was equal than you would be right, since it is not, then you are wrong.In other words, you have a strawman argument going.When a super rich person gets a paycheck, he pays the top marginal rate.When he gets a dividend check, he pays capital gains rateWhen he gets a bond payment from a municipal bond, he pays nothing.That would be the exact same as you for the bottom two, and less for the top one.So...They do. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I don't think my desire that people making 200 million per year pay a higher tax rate than me is based on envy as much as common sense.I think the idea that a person can't handle having views on ideal tax rates and make sound financial decisions in their personal life is pretty amusing but thanks for the pro tip.I think that perusing the list of flat tax countries was definitely interesting.On average, people who make 200 million pay a far higher tax rate than the average person of your income. That should tell you something about your decision-making process. If you are the outlier, figure out why and do something about it. Trying to handicap those who have consistently made better decisions doesn't advance yourself. Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 You posted the article saying the effective tax rate is 20%. Not me. You can't claim I'm an outlier when I'm just one of many professionals in a 20% bracket. Like what, all the other lawyers making similar salary to me are benefitting from some tax break I overlooked? Seriously? Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 You posted the article saying the effective tax rate is 20%. Not me. You can't claim I'm an outlier when I'm just one of many professionals in a 20% bracket. Like what, all the other lawyers making similar salary to me are benefitting from some tax break I overlooked? Seriously?First, using lawyers as an example of people who need to be taxed less is a bit crazy..... by the time you are a lawyer, you are in the top couple of percent of income earners. But yeah, there are a million ways to reduce your tax bill. If you are paying 20% and making less than, say, $150K, you are not using all of them. That's your choice, but hardly a reason to complain about those who do use all the financial tools available to them.I'm certainly not defending our tax system, I can think of at least 5 systems that would be more fair and less intrusive. But this "tax the rich" nonsense is just silly. It's an excuse to avoid discussing the real problem, which in insane levels of spending on absolutely nothing of value. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Looks like the lunacy of the nanny state i New York is getting worse.After deciding that they are the ones to decide how much soda you are allowed to buy, they are now contemplating how much to stretch their new found powers:Popcorn in movies? We might have to decide how much you are allowed to eat.Milk products? Looks like those milkshakes will need to downsized as well.Isn't it great to know that the nanny state so many of you leftist want is coming sooner rather than later? Link to post Share on other sites
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