Random News Observations

[Balloon guy 158]

It is neither dangerous nor incorrect. In fact, exactly the opposite is true.Regarding the moral superiority of the Bible over the Koran with regard to calls to violence and the destruction of non-believers, the Bible is WAY worse, both in terms of volume and extremity, and it's not even remotely close. There are minority, extremist wings of all religions. The Islamists are no different than the Christian fundamentalists who bomb abortion clinics. The Islamists have demonstrated a large sway within their populations in certain countries, and that is due to a total lack of options for these populations, but because this is so absolutely does not mean it is fair or correct to lump the entire religion with the few who are attempting to pervert the minds of otherwise peaceful practitioners.Have you guys been watching a lot of Pat Robertson or something?

How many abortion clinics have been bombed? Total?Just want to have a little fun making your point moot with facts, because this post is void of them.

[mk 11]

How many abortion clinics have been bombed? Total?Just want to have a little fun making your point moot with facts, because this post is void of them.

Hundreds. This took 3 seconds:According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs"). The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993. The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.Incidents have included: December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday." The clinic, the Ladies Center, would later be the site of the murder of Dr. John Britton and James Barrett in 1994 and a firebombing in 2012. May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida. October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison. May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved. This was the second arson at the clinic. September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building, who fired two warning shots from a shotgun. June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in $6,000 in damages. July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open. December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a "memorial lamp" for an abortion she had had there. September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan, crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions; however, Edgerton is not an abortion clinic. Time magazine listed the incident in a "Top 10 Inept Terrorist Plots" list. April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas, contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime. May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia. December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman's girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic. January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness [36] rammed an SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota. January 1, 2012 Bobby Joe Rogers, 41, firebombed the American Family Planning Clinic in Pensacola, Florida with a Molotov cocktail; the fire gutted the building. Rogers told investigators that he was motivated to commit the crime by his opposition to abortion, and that what more directly prompted the act was seeing a patient enter the clinic during one of the frequent anti-abortion protests there. The clinic had previously been bombed at Christmas in 1984 and was the site of the murder of Dr. John Britton and James Barrett in 1994.

[Balloon guy 158]

Hundreds. This took 3 seconds:According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 1

Let's compare what this word means to us.To me: Hundreds means more than 2 hundred.To you: Hundreds means less than half a hundred.I don't see how we can continue discussing issues if we don't use similar definitions for words.And I have not even started to demand you establish that abortion clinic bombings are to be laid at the feet of Christianity since it's a pro-life issue, which anyone can be irregardless of your religious views.

[DJ Vu 176]

It is neither dangerous nor incorrect. In fact, exactly the opposite is true.Regarding the moral superiority of the Bible over the Koran with regard to calls to violence and the destruction of non-believers, the Bible is WAY fucking worse, both in terms of volume and extremity, and it's not even remotely close. There are minority, extremist wings of all religions. The Islamists are no different than the Christian fundamentalists who bomb abortion clinics or those who burned women at the stake and called them witches. The Islamists have demonstrated a large sway within their populations in certain countries, and that is due to a total lack of options for these populations, but because this is so absolutely does not mean it is fair or correct to lump the entire religion with the few who are attempting to pervert the minds of the literally billions of otherwise peaceful practitioners.

Muslims share something in common despite their diversity: Islam. Think of it this way: there is a poisoned well that people around the world are all drinking from. Some percentage of the drinkers will get sick. People from many walks of life, all colors, genders, nationalities drink from this well. For some reason we are only allowed to focus on whats wrong with those specific people who get sick, and if we suggest that the water supply is tainted, we are branded as bigots. Granted, figuring out why some people get sick and others don't might be helpful for their treatment, but really, let's stop serving people the frigging poison to begin with. The fact that not every single person who drinks it comes down with an acute form of the disease does not mean that the water is healthy. But make no mistake, the ideas which this organization wants to spread are not beneficial to our well-being. That water is poisoned, and we need to be able to run tests on it and recommend against drinking it without fear of reprisal.

Yes, for the most part both groups are filled with great people who ignore many of the things in their religious holy texts. (thankfully)But surely it is not an error to refer to someone as muslim when they commit an act in the name of their religion, which is prescribed in their religious holy text.

Have you guys been watching a lot of Pat Robertson or something?

More Sam Harris than Pat Robertson.

Sam Harris has an interesting blog post about the situation that relates to AmScray's comment, as well as BG's. http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/christi...d-islamophobia/He first says that the guy's manifesto does not support the idea that he was a "Christian Fundamentalist". The emergence of “Christian” terrorism in Europe does absolutely nothing to diminish or simplify the problem of Islam—its repression of women, its hostility toward free speech, and its all-too-facile and frequent resort to threats and violence. Islam remains the most retrograde and ill-behaved religion on earth. And the final irony of Breivik’s despicable life is that he has made that truth even more difficult to speak about.

[mk 11]

OK, DOZENS. Hundreds of violent incidents. You are attempting to totally derail a discussion, as per usual, with things that have nothing to do with the point being discussed.My point was very, very simple. Do you DISAGREE that the world has been and continues to be host to extremist christians who adhere to violence as a means of 'conversion'?

[Balloon guy 158]

OK, DOZENS. Hundreds of violent incidents. You are attempting to totally derail a discussion, as per usual, with things that have nothing to do with the point being discussed.

You are the one making silly statements trying to make it appear Christianity is worse than Islam when it comes to violence and murder. Nobody but you believes that, well maybe a few other confused people who refuse to look at history and facts and stuff.

My point was very, very simple. Do you DISAGREE that the world has been and continues to be host to extremist christians who adhere to violence as a means of 'conversion'?

Are there any Christians torturing people to convert them? None since the <4,000 that died during the Inquisition over 200 years that I have heard of.I mean, there may be one or two nut cases, but no one is dumb enough to color the entire of Christendom with that broad of a brush over the actions of .00000000001% of there numbers....are they?But if you want to condemn the worse world views with regards to human suffering and deaths, don't you think we should discuss atheism and its murderous history over the last hundred years?

[mk 11]

And rather than focus on the downward comparison of christianity vs islam thing, can we agree that all organized religion is super fucking evil and will be the end of mankind?I mean, I'm not trying to necessarily defend the tenets of islam here; I think they're all bats. I'm merely making a very obvious point that religion can always be perverted, and if we are to uphold freedom of religion for all then it's pretty outrageously fucking hypocritical to say "islam bad, jaysus good for all people"And demonization of islam in this country (of white christians) is obviously a wonderful industry, hence all of you buying into this garbage logic.

[mk 11]

Are there any Christians torturing people to convert them?

Ever heard of that Hitler guy?

[Balloon guy 158]

And rather than focus on the downward comparison of christianity vs islam thing, can we agree that all organized religion is super fucking evil and will be the end of mankind?I mean, I'm not trying to necessarily defend the tenets of islam here; I think they're all bats. I'm merely making a very obvious point that religion can always be perverted, and if we are to uphold freedom of religion for all then it's pretty outrageously ****ing hypocritical to say "islam bad, jaysus good for all people"And demonization of islam in this country (of white christians) is obviously a wonderful industry, hence all of you buying into this garbage logic.

??? Again, let's compare the violence of the last 100 years of atheism to all organized religion throughout the history of the world combined.Atheist government's death tolls: Hundreds of millions ( and that's 'hundreds' by my definition, not yours )Religious government's death tolls: Millions.Winner: Christians....again.

[DJ Vu 176]

I'm merely making a very obvious point that religion can always be perverted, and if we are to uphold freedom of religion for all then it's pretty outrageously ****ing hypocritical to say "islam bad, jaysus good for all people"

But the point is that Islam isn't bad when it's perverted, it's bad when it's followed completely.

[Balloon guy 158]

Ever heard of that Hitler guy?

The guy who stated that his race was farther evolved and therefore should kill the lessor races by virtue of the right of evolutionary morality?

[Balloon guy 158]

But the point is that Islam isn't bad when it's perverted, it's bad when it's followed completely.

[mk 11]

Nobody but you believes that, well maybe a few other confused people who refuse to look at history and facts and stuff.

I mean if you really want to do this and get absolutely ****ing crushed by me for the billionth time, be my guest.Hosea 13:16: Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.1 Samuel 15:3,8: Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " … He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.Psalm 137: Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.Deuteronomy 2:32-34: Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining.Now, compare this to the verse that is constantly cited by the Koran quoters, the verse which says "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you," and was using "infidels" to refer directly to the Meccan aristocracy which was at full-out war with Muslims at the time. That verse is immediately followed by "If any of the unbelievers asks you for sanctuary, then take them into your houses so that they might hear the word of God and then let them go on their way."Would you like more?

[mk 11]

??? Again, let's compare the violence of the last 100 years of atheism to all organized religion throughout the history of the world combined.

How about throughout all recorded history?

[DJ Vu 176]

Hosea 13:161 Samuel 15:3,8Psalm 137Deuteronomy 2:32-34

The Old Testament says some pretty heinous things. Christians though have a way out of following the gruesomeness of the old testament and still maintaining the bible's literal truth: jesus came and changed things. Modern muslims have no such out. These principles are written into the Koran and the theology states that the word of the prophet is the word of allah. These principles motivate much more than a few random acts of violence; they are at the root of the conflict with Israel for example, and entire countries (e.g. Iran) leverage these principles in their political opposition to western culture. Until there is an official theological change within Islam that separates itself from its own violent and divisive canon (something like the protestant reformation probably needs to happen), muslims have not earned the right to dismiss these people as "extremists". It also behooves us to keep the pressure on them to do this, because the longer we pretend that Islam is a positive force in the world the more we put off this necessary change.

[akoff 0]

I mean if you really want to do this and get absolutely ****ing crushed by me for the billionth time, be my guest.Hosea 13:16: Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.1 Samuel 15:3,8: Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " … He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.Psalm 137: Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.Deuteronomy 2:32-34: Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining.Now, compare this to the verse that is constantly cited by the Koran quoters, the verse which says "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you," and was using "infidels" to refer directly to the Meccan aristocracy which was at full-out war with Muslims at the time. That verse is immediately followed by "If any of the unbelievers asks you for sanctuary, then take them into your houses so that they might hear the word of God and then let them go on their way."Would you like more?

old testament...really you are going there? ok good luck with that.

[mk 11]

Are you all really attempting to gang up on me AGAINST freedom of religion?You are all so fucking far gone from sanity it's not worth trying to make any sense of it.

[mk 11]

IS THE OLD TESTAMENT NOT PART OF THE FUCKING BIBLE?IT DOESN'T GET A FREE FUCKING PASS IF IT'S PART OF YOUR BOOKThis is PRECISELY the point.If I were an extremist Christian, I could interpret those passages literally and try to convince people how they ought to live TODAY, just like Islamists do with the Koran. If I were to do that in the poorest areas of the rural southern U.S., I'd probably have a lot of success (see Falwell, Jerry and Robertson, Pat). That wouldn't NECESSARILY mean that all Christians were evil, murderous psychopaths.

[DJ Vu 176]

IS THE OLD TESTAMENT NOT PART OF THE FUCKING BIBLE?IT DOESN'T GET A FREE FUCKING PASS IF IT'S PART OF YOUR BOOK

But what if the New Testament specifically says that stuff in the Old Testament doesn't apply anymore?Also, what started this whole discussion? I didn't realize we were talking about Islam versus Christianity; I thought it was just an "Islam is bad" discussion.

[The Ocho 970]

The guy who stated that his race was farther evolved and therefore should kill the lessor races by virtue of the right of evolutionary morality?

further. I think. Wait, now I'm not sure. Ya, I'm pretty sure it should be further.

[mk 11]

I mean, I generally feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read this part of the forum, but you guys are all really outdoing yourselves today.

[mk 11]

But what if the New Testament specifically says that stuff in the Old Testament doesn't apply anymore?Also, what started this whole discussion? I didn't realize we were talking about Islam versus Christianity; I thought it was just an "Islam is bad" discussion.

Well, what if parts of the Koran i.e. THE SENTENCE right after negate the alleged impact of the whole 'violence vs. infidels' stuff? Does that convince you in any way that all of what vbnaut has posted wrt to this topic is hateful, ignorant bullshit?And what started this discussion is your lumping all Muslims into Islamism and my calling you out by asking if you thought all religion was bad or just that one.

[DJ Vu 176]

Well, what if parts of the Koran i.e. THE SENTENCE right after negate the alleged impact of the whole 'violence vs. infidels' stuff? Does that convince you in any way that all of what vbnaut has posted wrt to this topic is hateful, ignorant bullshit?

No, because I don't think that's the singular "bad" part. p.s. Your unnecessary bullshit bypass was epic. Double bold???

And what started this discussion is your lumping all Muslims into Islamism

Wait, what is a Muslim?If you're trying to say that I said all Muslims are evil, than that's not what I did.

and my calling you out by asking if you thought all religion was bad or just this one.

I don't think I took this bait.

[mk 11]

I believe what you said, via someone else (as usual), was essentially "Islam is bad and we [royal?] should be against it." Which, to me, implies that you are against freedom of religion. Is that correct?

[DJ Vu 176]

I believe what you said, via someone else (as usual), was essentially "Islam is bad and we [royal?] should be against it." Right?

I'm using vb here because I think what he says makes sense and he says it better than I could.Right.