DiamondDixie 12 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thanks for breaking down the hand dixiYou're welcome, LOLKarma kicked my butt the rest of the night. Link to post Share on other sites
CorvairShaggy 5 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 That you did! 1st why didn't you 3 bet me - I would have folded AJ to a 3 bet more than likely2nd I can understand not re-raising the flop bet but why didn't you re-raise the turn, I might have put you on AK or AQ or even what you had and folded AJ to a reraise. However, assuming I had some type of ace I can see playing it the way you did for max value but...Unfortunately you waited for the river to go for the kill and I totally got there on the river.Tried to squeeze max value, but got screwed as usual. Here is my thought process:PF - Flatted here in early position, hoping for 1 more person to come in. Success.Flop - Wet my pants here, then just flatted. You might have been just stabbing here, but more than likely I figured you for an A. I know that you guys know that I can bet strong and make my hand obvious, so decided just to call here being in position here, hoping to give you some rope.Turn - A dud, and you still bet. At this point you are heavily invested, and I am almost 100% sure you have an A. I was thinking at this point" She may have a higher boat, but the odds would be slim".River - Spade but still a dud. I don't see you betting like you did with a flush draw, b/c you would not have played that strong against me with J/x spades, or any other combo. You were betting the whole way wanting to keep me around with the half pot or less bet. I was still worried about a A-high boat, but what can I do at this point.I mean, really..... If I did a small raise on the turn, are you really laying down top set after being invested ~40% in the hand? I mean, after the turn I am still an 84% winner here. You had to catch a 3 outer . If I 3-bet PF, you could have put me on a A with higher kicker. Then Tom probably would not be in, and I check/raise you on the flop, I can see you folding. I win maybe ~700 with a dreamy flop?Yes, I can see the argument to why it is better to take down what you can get, but even if we both got it in PF, the odds would have been the same. I was a 3:1 favorite, and got rivered.Not all of us can run like TrueAce13 and make $6k a month on 1 tourney. :)EDIT: Now, if I was OOP, then I am sure this hand would have been played alot differently. Link to post Share on other sites
bullmoose 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 That you did! 1st why didn't you 3 bet me - I would have folded AJ to a 3 bet more than likely2nd I can understand not re-raising the flop bet but why didn't you re-raise the turn, I might have put you on AK or AQ or even what you had and folded AJ to a reraise. However, assuming I had some type of ace I can see playing it the way you did for max value but...Unfortunately you waited for the river to go for the kill and I totally got there on the river. But karma is a bitch: PokerStars - $5+$0.50|75/150 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 playersHand converted by PokerTracker 3UTG: 7,690.00UTG+1: 6,395.00MP: 5,230.00MP+1: 2,279.00LP: 11,381.00CO: 8,140.00BTN: 2,510.00Hero (SB): 6,209.00BB: 7,277.00Hero posts SB 75.00, BB posts BB 150.00Pre Flop: (225.00) Hero has A:club: K:spade: fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 375.00, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 900.00, BB calls 750.00, foldFlop: (2175.00, 2 players) T:club: 5:spade: Q:heart: Hero bets 1,087.00, BB calls 1,087.00Turn: (4349.00, 2 players) A:diamond: Hero bets 2,174.00, BB calls 2,174.00River: (8697.00, 2 players) 5:heart: Hero checks, BB bets 1,050.00, Hero calls 1,050.00BB shows J:heart: K:diamond: (Straight, Ace High) (PreFlop 26%, Flop 27%, Turn 97%)Hero mucks A:club: K:spade: (Two Pair, Aces and Fives) (PreFlop 74%, Flop 73%, Turn 3%)BB wins 10,797.00How I misplayed this hand: I'm good with my 3 bet and my c-bet but I don't like my raise on the turn. Too much in his calling range got there on this turn. I should have check/evaluated here but no I had to bet here. I felt pot committed on the river so I called, big mistake. I expected him to turn over QQ or TT but not the good old rookie hand KJ and it was off suit no less.yes, misplayed for sure, but it happens. Your Pre-flop raise not big enough w/ AK in a 3 way pot. Perhaps you could have raised more to isolate heads up and take the odds (express & implied) away from the BB to make the call. Then again on the flop.......a 1/2 pot sized bet isn't going to push anyone off an open-ended straight draw, (or better) especially w/money behind. If you felt you were ahead....perhaps bet more ??? The BB call pre-flop and on the flop should have had you thinking that PERHAPS the BB was on a big draw, so the 2k bet on the turn was also a no no. After a call/call/call from the BB.....you CHECK and call the river with just top pair. Not good. Bigger pre-flop raise w/ AK knocks the BB out of the hand. My 1st FCP tourney, was 2nd in chips at the final table, but got knocked out in 9th place. Fun little tourney. Will play again for sure..... Link to post Share on other sites
Gallo 1 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 yes, misplayed for sure, but it happens. Your Pre-flop raise not big enough w/ AK in a 3 way pot. Perhaps you could have raised more to isolate heads up and take the odds (express & implied) away from the BB to make the call. Then again on the flop.......a 1/2 pot sized bet isn't going to push anyone off an open-ended straight draw, (or better) especially w/money behind. If you felt you were ahead....perhaps bet more ??? The BB call pre-flop and on the flop should have had you thinking that PERHAPS the BB was on a big draw, so the 2k bet on the turn was also a no no. After a call/call/call from the BB.....you CHECK and call the river with just top pair. Not good. Bigger pre-flop raise w/ AK knocks the BB out of the hand. My 1st FCP tourney, was 2nd in chips at the final table, but got knocked out in 9th place. Fun little tourney. Will play again for sure.....Looks like there was only 1 person in the pot before she 3bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 yes, misplayed for sure, but it happens. Your Pre-flop raise not big enough w/ AK in a 3 way pot. Perhaps you could have raised more to isolate heads up and take the odds (express & implied) away from the BB to make the call. Then again on the flop.......a 1/2 pot sized bet isn't going to push anyone off an open-ended straight draw, (or better) especially w/money behind. If you felt you were ahead....perhaps bet more ??? The BB call pre-flop and on the flop should have had you thinking that PERHAPS the BB was on a big draw, so the 2k bet on the turn was also a no no. After a call/call/call from the BB.....you CHECK and call the river with just top pair. Not good. Bigger pre-flop raise w/ AK knocks the BB out of the hand. My 1st FCP tourney, was 2nd in chips at the final table, but got knocked out in 9th place. Fun little tourney. Will play again for sure.....Cool analysis, bro. Link to post Share on other sites
bullmoose 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Looks like there was only 1 person in the pot before she 3bet.that's why a bigger raise is needed (IMHO) w/ AK in that spot.....take down the pot right there, or get heads up vs. that one initial opponent, drive out the rest.....especially the BB w/money already in the pot......w/fairly deep stacks relative to the blinds at that point, the implied odds for the BB on the draw w/money already in the pot w/ KJ are too high to fold to a 3bet. The weak pre-flop bet, and possibility of a 3 way pot, just invites the BB to call. Link to post Share on other sites
GWCGWC 83 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ya'll are a bunch of potty mouths. Link to post Share on other sites
GWCGWC 83 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 that's why a bigger raise is needed (IMHO) w/ AK in that spot.....take down the pot right there, or get heads up vs. that one initial opponent, drive out the rest.....especially the BB w/money already in the pot......w/fairly deep stacks relative to the blinds at that point, the implied odds for the BB on the draw w/money already in the pot w/ KJ are too high to fold to a 3bet. The weak pre-flop bet, and possibility of a 3 way pot, just invites the BB to call.She doesn't know she's up against KJ or she would c/f the turn. The flop cbet is fine. Link to post Share on other sites
Gallo 1 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 that's why a bigger raise is needed (IMHO) w/ AK in that spot.....take down the pot right there, or get heads up vs. that one initial opponent, drive out the rest.....especially the BB w/money already in the pot......w/fairly deep stacks relative to the blinds at that point, the implied odds for the BB on the draw w/money already in the pot w/ KJ are too high to fold to a 3bet. The weak pre-flop bet, and possibility of a 3 way pot, just invites the BB to call.BB cold-called a 3bet with KJo and wasn't even last to close the action. j/s Link to post Share on other sites
GWCGWC 83 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 who is Creed(two numbers)? Link to post Share on other sites
wsox8 10 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 who is Creed(two numbers)?I was assuming it was Scott Stapp but then realized he might not be playing this week because it wasn't announced. Then I figured it was someone on "dirty poker forum" that decided to play like a lot of the other unknowns from yesterday. Link to post Share on other sites
bullmoose 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 BB cold-called a 3bet with KJo and wasn't even last to close the action. j/sBB called pre-flop for $750 to contest a pot of $1,425, w/deep stacks behind (implied odds)BB called on the flop w/8 outs for $1,087 to contest a pot of $3,262 ( plus implied odds)BB hits the nut draw on the turn and wins a pot of close to $11,000 for the initial $750 call.Initial bet size with possible 3 way pot just invites the BB to call $750 and see the flop. Link to post Share on other sites
meservery 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 BB called pre-flop for $750 to contest a pot of $1,425, w/deep stacks behind (implied odds)BB called on the flop w/8 outs for $1,087 to contest a pot of $3,262 ( plus implied odds)BB hits the nut draw on the turn and wins a pot of close to $11,000 for the initial $750 call.Initial bet size with possible 3 way pot just invites the BB to call $750 and see the flop.MP+1 raised to 375, starting the hand with only 15 BB. MP+1 should have close to Zero hands in his range that would not re-ship pre against the SBs three bet. The cold call of the 3 bet with KJo, not closing the action, and with the initial raiser still left to act is so incredibly weird that I can't help from puking in my mouth a little. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 BB called pre-flop for $750 to contest a pot of $1,425, w/deep stacks behind (implied odds)BB called on the flop w/8 outs for $1,087 to contest a pot of $3,262 ( plus implied odds)BB hits the nut draw on the turn and wins a pot of close to $11,000 for the initial $750 call.Initial bet size with possible 3 way pot just invites the BB to call $750 and see the flop.This is ridiculously results oriented. The call with KJo is not going to make money with stacks as shallow as they are. Link to post Share on other sites
Gallo 1 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 So I should be zigging when I zag? Gotcha!! Link to post Share on other sites
wsox8 10 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I hope I never misplay a hand because I won't have any reasons why I made the play. Link to post Share on other sites
bullmoose 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 MP+1 raised to 375, starting the hand with only 15 BB. MP+1 should have close to Zero hands in his range that would not re-ship pre against the SBs three bet. The cold call of the 3 bet with KJo, not closing the action, and with the initial raiser still left to act is so incredibly weird that I can't help from puking in my mouth a little.If MP+1 ships then BB folds, and still has deep stack to work with. Not so incredible. If AK makes stronger re-raise, then BB folds and she wins what AK usually wins. A small pot. Link to post Share on other sites
donk4life 34 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 oh dear god Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 oh dear god^ Link to post Share on other sites
bullmoose 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 This is ridiculously results oriented. The call with KJo is not going to make money with stacks as shallow as they are.No its not......and yes it is (and yes it did)........Both AK and KJ had fairly deep stacks compared to the $150 blind. Around 40BB's +/- each. The initial call of $750 for a pot that's already $1,400 + with $5k or so behind the raiser is an easy (and correct) call to make from the BB. You miss, and you still have a decent stack of 40BB's to work with....and you lost only $750. You hit, and you have good implied odds to justify the call......In this case the final pot of close to $11,000. Had the stacks been very short, or had the AK made a more substantial re-raise pre-flop.....then a fold by the BB is in order. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 No its not......and yes it is (and yes it did)........Both AK and KJ had fairly deep stacks compared to the $150 blind. Around 40BB's +/- each. The initial call of $750 for a pot that's already $1,400 + with $5k or so behind the raiser is an easy (and correct) call to make from the BB. You miss, and you still have a decent stack of 40BB's to work with....and you lost only $750. You hit, and you have good implied odds to justify the call......In this case the final pot of close to $11,000. Had the stacks been very short, or had the AK made a more substantial re-raise pre-flop.....then a fold by the BB is in order.Define hit please. Flop K76, is that a hit? How's that for implied odds? Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hey bullmoose... Link to post Share on other sites
bullmoose 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Define hit please. Flop K76, is that a hit?In this specific hand, hitting the flop would be flopping a straight, an open ended straight draw, top two pair, or trips, then having the opponent pay you off on the turn/river Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 No its not......and yes it is (and yes it did)........Both AK and KJ had fairly deep stacks compared to the $150 blind. Around 40BB's +/- each. The initial call of $750 for a pot that's already $1,400 + with $5k or so behind the raiser is an easy (and correct) call to make from the BB. You miss, and you still have a decent stack of 40BB's to work with....and you lost only $750. You hit, and you have good implied odds to justify the call......In this case the final pot of close to $11,000. Had the stacks been very short, or had the AK made a more substantial re-raise pre-flop.....then a fold by the BB is in order.About half of this post is completely results oriented.... You're getting 2:1 preflop not closing the action. I'm guessing that's about right vs just the SBs range...but with MP involved it's not. Often the original raiser will come back over the top and you will be shut out without even seeing a flop....I'm guessing this happens quite a lot given how short MP is.The rest of the time you will do what...completely miss..flop a straight draw...flop one pair...situations you will find it very hard to make money postflop against a tightish (assumption) range. I'm not entirely sure how often you flop 2 pair+ but I'm guessing it's less than 10%...even then it's not like you're gonna get it in with 90%+ equity all the time.In this example you flop a draw where you have 8 outs and you get to make a barely profitable call....which will lead to a bad turn call if you miss. There are reverse implied odds of hitting a king or jack as well. You happened to gin a card which the SB also hit (and possibly shouldn't have bet anyway) and you still didn't get the whole stack...when you hit a 9 it's likely you won't get any more money.edit - I've no idea if you were the BB in this handedit 2- the idea of "only losing 750 chips" isn't true since often errors are compounded postflop. What if you miss on the turn here..you've put in 1700..are you gonna call a turn bet? You might wind up putting in half your stack and not seeing a showdown or turning/rivering a King and losing your entire stack. Link to post Share on other sites
GWCGWC 83 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 taking the time for that explanation was very nice of you Hwy. Link to post Share on other sites
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