Tournament Hand Discussion Thread

[HighwayStar 8]

What does this mean in regards to his 4betting and flatting ranges?

In general here I expect premiums to be out of his range and he will almost always call if I 3 bet...having no idea about stack:pot ratios and such. If I make it something silly like 700 he might just decide to stick it in or fold. There are players who back raise here but they Basically, if I make it 475 here I'll have to play at least heads up out of position with slightly over a 1:1 stack:pot ratio....which is a spot I find really awkward....even against a wide range/weak range.Yet shoving seems a lot of chips and calling seems weak. Just an awkward preflop spot.

[GWCGWC 83]

smooth calling can't be bad here. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's the bees knees.

[rcgs59 15]

smooth calling can't be bad here. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's the bees knees.

my take if he is smooth calling preflop it is giving him or his opponent the chance to hit his hand, so is it not better to try the 4 bet to push off his opponent rather than giving him the chance to see the flop and hit his hand?

[outsider13 0]

I think we are going to be pushing smaller edges than this though in this tournament. Seems like a good spot to pick up chips and I'd prefer shoving. Shove>>Flat>3bet>Fold imo.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Early in a $12 turbo something or other...Don't know opener. Button is 42/14 over 14 and my experience with players like this is that they very rarely fold to any kind of reasonably sized 3 betsFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($11+$1) t25/t50 - 9 playersSB: t1,084 BB: t1,575 (Hero)UTG: t1,795 UTG+1: t1,245 MP: t615 MP2: t3,965 HJ: t1,705 CO: t2,705 Button: t2,900 Preflop: (t75) Hero is BB with (9 players)3 folds, HJ raises to t150, CO folds, Button calls t150, Hero..

I've been on a horrid downswing this month, and this hand haunts me constantly. Generally the way I would do this is flat PF and jam any A or Q on the flop. Problem is, most of the time I whiff, then your stuck in no man's land. Try to bluff it or just lay it down? Is laying down 10% spewey here? From my limited experience on $11/$12 180s, jamming here is going to get a fold or putting you in a flip. Rarely are you getting someone to stack off at this level with a weaker A. This month every critical flip I get into I lose, so therefore I am starting to think/play more results oriented. Need to go on a break...

[HighwayStar 8]

I've been on a horrid downswing this month, and this hand haunts me constantly. Generally the way I would do this is flat PF and jam any A or Q on the flop. Problem is, most of the time I whiff, then your stuck in no man's land. Try to bluff it or just lay it down? Is laying down 10% spewey here? From my limited experience on $11/$12 180s, jamming here is going to get a fold or putting you in a flip. Rarely are you getting someone to stack off at this level with a weaker A. This month every critical flip I get into I lose, so therefore I am starting to think/play more results oriented. Need to go on a break...

I hate, hate, hate doing the bolded. That's just giving up so much value from people bluffing/value betting worse.I think you can feel fairly comfortable check folding a lot of flops since continuing out of position is never going to be easy.I think you'll find plenty of bad players calling off shoves with plenty of lol-holdings.

[donk4life 34]

As for the wide 3-betting range pre-antes, it's really just another spot a lot players don't take advantage of. Weaker players, no matter the blind level, are going to fairly exploitable both pre and post-flop. I'm not saying once the tournament starts at 10/20 you just start 3-betting like a madman, but as the tournament progresses and you get a feel for the table you'll be able to pick more chips by widening your 3-betting range. Plus, 3-betting is fun!

[Good Tom Hunting 0]

Early in a $12 turbo something or other...Don't know opener. Button is 42/14 over 14 and my experience with players like this is that they very rarely fold to any kind of reasonably sized 3 betsFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($11+$1) t25/t50 - 9 playersSB: t1,084 BB: t1,575 (Hero)UTG: t1,795 UTG+1: t1,245 MP: t615 MP2: t3,965 HJ: t1,705 CO: t2,705 Button: t2,900 Preflop: (t75) Hero is BB with (9 players)3 folds, HJ raises to t150, CO folds, Button calls t150, Hero..

I would definitely just ship this all in and hope for the best, but I can also see an argument for calling and c/f when you miss the flop. Since you don't have a read on the opponent, I think shoving it the best play while making a small raise would be the worst (puts you in an awkward position as someone mentioned earlier.If you have a read on the opponent, I think the ideal play would be to just call and reevaluate after the flop depending on flop texture and how the initial raiser acts.

[outsider13 0]

I've been on a horrid downswing this month, and this hand haunts me constantly. Generally the way I would do this is flat PF and jam any A or Q on the flop. Problem is, most of the time I whiff, then your stuck in no man's land. Try to bluff it or just lay it down? Is laying down 10% spewey here? From my limited experience on $11/$12 180s, jamming here is going to get a fold or putting you in a flip. Rarely are you getting someone to stack off at this level with a weaker A. This month every critical flip I get into I lose, so therefore I am starting to think/play more results oriented. Need to go on a break...

Generating folds isn't a bad thing. I nets you a positive gain in chips. We are about 36ish% vs. these opening/flatting ranges (probably close in equity with hj), and when we are called......which is less often than we are, we are ahead a few times, flipping a lot of the time and crushed a few times. The only thing that shoving may do is lose a little value considering we are ahead here more often than not, but by not shoving we open up for exploitation. People will also call with the darndest of things, especially a 42/14.And ya, shipping on an A or Q flop is losing a lot of value. Give a little rope.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Highwaystar and superjeff, thanks for the input. I missed the fact he was 42/14, so jamming and dominating/flipping him seems ok. I feel like I have gained enough basic knowledge that I need to open up a bit more. I have been stuck in "bot mode" and not really thinking outside the box, and against more experienced players like the Neg-os, I should basically be playing open-faced because I am not hiding squat. Personally, right now when I give rope, I am just hanging myself, but that is just results oriented thinking. Time for a break and watch videos/study for a week or two to build confidence back up and plug a few holes, then go back at it. Good discussion tho.How about posting another PF scenario, and a multiple choice answer system to go with it, and see what kind of discussion comes up. ??

[TrueAce13 18]

As for the wide 3-betting range pre-antes, it's really just another spot a lot players don't take advantage of. Weaker players, no matter the blind level, are going to fairly exploitable both pre and post-flop. I'm not saying once the tournament starts at 10/20 you just start 3-betting like a madman, but as the tournament progresses and you get a feel for the table you'll be able to pick more chips by widening your 3-betting range. Plus, 3-betting is fun!

well then thats no fun, 3bet like a madman!

[rcgs59 15]

omg lol I am making sense of all this especially when you talking about the 42/14 I got to say love HEM, it does help making some calling decisions as well as Nash's shoving range scale.see this old girl can learn to play and now understand some of this stuff

[GWCGWC 83]

It's still too early and the stacks aren't shallow enough to look for a flip. I'm not saying shipping is horrible but it's no where near optimal when considering the stacks/blinds/players. The possible dead money, meaning we only get one caller isn't enough to justify the invitation to the inevitable variance that tourney poker forces a player to embrace. I'm assuming this is a 180 man turbo sng.I'm not worried about being exploited with AQ in the BB with these stacks. smooth call>ship>>>>>>>>3bet/call>>>folding

[HighwayStar 8]

This is how the hand played out...you can easily induce people to do silly shit in these thingsA pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this handPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($11+$1) t25/t50 - 9 playersSB: t1,084 BB: t1,575 (Hero)UTG: t1,795 UTG+1: t1,245 MP: t615 MP2: t3,965 HJ: t1,705 CO: t2,705 Button: t2,900 Preflop: (t75) Hero is BB with (9 players)3 folds, HJ raises to t150, CO folds, Button calls t150, Hero calls t125, UTG foldsFlop: (t500) (4 players)Hero checks, HJ checks, Button bets t250, Hero calls t250, HJ foldsTurn: (t1,000) (3 players)Hero checks, Button bets t150, Hero calls t150River: (t1,300) (3 players)Hero checks, Button bets t350, Hero calls t350Hero showed , and won (2000) with two pair, Aces and FoursButton showed , and lost with two pair, Kings and FoursHero won t2000

[GWCGWC 83]

here's a good question:$12 180 man turbo sngpays 18 places. 100 players leftavg stack is 20bb'sassuming the table has you covered. can you fold your bb leaving yourself with 10bbs? 8bbs? 6bbs? At what point are you calling atc from the bb irregardless of the openers position or range?

[GWCGWC 83]

HWY is really good at poker. I just don't see how that hand can be played any better.

[HighwayStar 8]

here's a good question:$12 180 man turbo sngpays 18 places. 100 players leftavg stack is 20bb'sassuming the table has you covered. can you fold your bb leaving yourself with 10bbs? 8bbs? 6bbs? At what point are you calling atc from the bb irregardless of the openers position or range?

With no real ICM considerations I don't often get below 5 BBs

[outsider13 0]

With no real ICM considerations I don't often get below 5 BBs

Yeah, this. I don't ever lose fold equity, no matter what. I also very rarely fold in a 12/180 getting 2:1 or greater.

[Gallo 1]

Early in a $12 turbo something or other...Don't know opener. Button is 42/14 over 14 and my experience with players like this is that they very rarely fold to any kind of reasonably sized 3 betsFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($11+$1) t25/t50 - 9 playersSB: t1,084 BB: t1,575 (Hero)UTG: t1,795 UTG+1: t1,245 MP: t615 MP2: t3,965 HJ: t1,705 CO: t2,705 Button: t2,900 Preflop: (t75) Hero is BB with (9 players)3 folds, HJ raises to t150, CO folds, Button calls t150, Hero..

It's still too early and the stacks aren't shallow enough to look for a flip. I'm not saying shipping is horrible but it's no where near optimal when considering the stacks/blinds/players. The possible dead money, meaning we only get one caller isn't enough to justify the invitation to the inevitable variance that tourney poker forces a player to embrace. I'm assuming this is a 180 man turbo sng.I'm not worried about being exploited with AQ in the BB with these stacks. smooth call>ship>>>>>>>>3bet/call>>>folding

Gary, I don't think it's THAT early seeing that it is a turbo. If this was a non-turbo then I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a flop even OOP. But blinds go up fairly fast. Also a fish with those stats will probably get it in AIPF anyway. They hate folding especially when they raise and they hate getting bullied around.

[outsider13 0]

Gary, I don't think it's THAT early seeing that it is a turbo. If this was a non-turbo then I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a flop even OOP. But blinds go up fairly fast. Also a fish with those stats will probably get it in AIPF anyway. They hate folding especially when they raise and they hate getting bullied around.

Agree 100%. If it were 15min levels I'd flat there for sure. In turbos we have 15bb very shortly.

[GWCGWC 83]

15bb's is a big stack in turbo formats and the 25/50 level is like the second level or something. I believe hwy plays A LOT of these and I'd be surprised if he didn't at some point have less than 10bb's in well over 50% of 180 turbo's that he's made the money. In this hand we have no clue about the hijacks opening range. We only suspect the button MAY be more prone to call AI pf. While AQo has decent equity vs one top 8-ish% hand, especially if one of the players folds and leaves the pot dead money, the equity drops significantly vs two players-even if assign stupid ranges. I'm not saying shoving is bad but I believe calling is better in this exact spot. Even with Sparcoensian math, I don't think it's a clear shove. Outsider, you play the short stack super super hyper light-speed AP sng's, yes? Even if you're not playing those, I know you're way familiar with push/fold strat but I don't think the stacks and blinds are at the push/fold level in this hand.

[babylondonks 5]

This is how the hand played out...you can easily induce people to do silly shit in these thingsA pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this handPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($11+$1) t25/t50 - 9 playersSB: t1,084 BB: t1,575 (Hero)UTG: t1,795 UTG+1: t1,245 MP: t615 MP2: t3,965 HJ: t1,705 CO: t2,705 Button: t2,900 Preflop: (t75) Hero is BB with (9 players)3 folds, HJ raises to t150, CO folds, Button calls t150, Hero calls t125, UTG foldsFlop: (t500) (4 players)Hero checks, HJ checks, Button bets t250, Hero calls t250, HJ foldsTurn: (t1,000) (3 players)Hero checks, Button bets t150, Hero calls t150River: (t1,300) (3 players)Hero checks, Button bets t350, Hero calls t350Hero showed , and won (2000) with two pair, Aces and FoursButton showed , and lost with two pair, Kings and FoursHero won t2000

Should have minraised the river. What's the plan if he jams the river, or if the river is the 4h and he jams.

here's a good question:$12 180 man turbo sngpays 18 places. 100 players leftavg stack is 20bb'sassuming the table has you covered. can you fold your bb leaving yourself with 10bbs? 8bbs? 6bbs? At what point are you calling atc from the bb irregardless of the openers position or range?

Probably around 6bb, but I'm probably finding a better shove or reshove spot a bit earlier.

Yeah, this. I don't ever lose fold equity, no matter what. I also very rarely fold in a 12/180 getting 2:1 or greater.

QFT

[Gallo 1]

Should have minraised the river. What's the plan if he jams the river, or if the river is the 4h and he jams.Probably around 6bb, but I'm probably finding a better shove or reshove spot a bit earlier.QFT

If the river is the 4h then he better keep the HH and post that Stars is indeed rigged.

[GWCGWC 83]

Should have minraised the river.

Because hwy's hand is so under-repped or an inside joke that I'm responding too like it's serious?

[HighwayStar 8]

I don't fold against an erratic unknown if he shoves river. I could def raise as played....based on his sizing through the hand, the only thing that really beats me is AJ and even that is unlikely. I just counterfeited KJ too.