BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I don't agree. You both are still making the assumption that he is somehow tricking Jesus into "saving" him. That's not how it works. You have to actually be mortified by your sin, and realize that you need a savior, because there is nothing you can do to be saved. There isn't a magic spell or trick, you have to actually have a changed heart. And only God knows when that has happened.You don't call it a magic spell, but that's exactly what i see it as. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 No, but he's not terrified of anything at the moment. Fear is a great motivator to turn to religion, obviously. And that doesn't make the belief any less real than yours. So yeah, Sandusky is more likely than us to convert, and therefore make it into your version of heaven.This goes back to tricking God. If fear is the driving motivation, is it real? Probably not.The rest of this post was written and rewritten like 10 times, and I can't say it right. Sorry. You deserve better. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 They had to do it because God chose that. If God wants people to be saved by making burnt sacrifices or bringing Him a shrubbery, then that's the rules, right? There's no deeper rule of the universe that constrains God's options here, right? He could just say everyone and his dog goes to heaven.Sure. I agree with your statement that God makes the rules. Link to post Share on other sites
BaseJester 1 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Sure. I agree with your statement that God makes the rules.And therefore, we can't really explain His need for Jesus to make a sacrifice to change the rules. It's just some inexplicable God stuff. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 And therefore, we can't really explain His need for Jesus to make a sacrifice to change the rules. It's just some inexplicable God stuff.Disagree. The Jesus sacrifice makes perfect sense within the context of the system he already had setup with the Jews. If you want to talk about the initial system being arbitrary, fine. But Jesus isn't irrelevant within the system. Link to post Share on other sites
SuitedAces21 2,722 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 No. I'm sure that it is just as possible as it is with you. Are you going to realize your need for a savior, and become a Christian?no i'll never realize that. but what i'm asking is it impossible for him to have known that while raping boys? it seems to me that he could know he needs to be saved BECAUSE of his terrible acts. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 no i'll never realize that.Anything is possible.Although, according to James, I don't think raping boys is necessarily a good work being produced by his faith in Jesus. Link to post Share on other sites
SuitedAces21 2,722 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Although, according to James, I don't think raping boys is necessarily a good work being produced by his faith in Jesus.but what does that matter? you said he needed to be mortified by his sin and know he needed Jesus to save him. i would think just after raping a young boy he might know he needed help and turn to jesus, sincerely and honestly. is that not possible? Link to post Share on other sites
BaseJester 1 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Disagree. The Jesus sacrifice makes perfect sense within the context of the system he already had setup with the Jews. If you want to talk about the initial system being arbitrary, fine. But Jesus isn't irrelevant within the system.Well, sure, since the system you referring to is Jesus.If an omnipotent God wanted to save people by grace through the father, could he do it? By definition, yes. After he sacrifices his son, he can really, super do it? What? I don't think there's a discernible logic to one man dying to erase all of the world's sins. Why not two: a son and a daughter? Or 3? or 42? Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Anything is possible.I do hold out hope that you will one day realize the truth and begin your deprogramming, ultimately being reborn as a free-minded individual. All you have to do is relentlessly question everything. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Ah. Evangelical athiesm. I love it. Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 I don't agree. You both are still making the assumption that he is somehow tricking Jesus into "saving" him. That's not how it works. You have to actually be mortified by your sin, and realize that you need a savior, because there is nothing you can do to be saved. There isn't a magic spell or trick, you have to actually have a changed heart. And only God knows when that has happened.How it works is dependent on whether you are Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, etc. There is a lot of dissagreement over this and each sect thinks the other is actually going to hell for doing it wrong. Each thinks you need to do different things to be saved and obviously the Catholics think you are going to hell since you are doing it wrong (for example). And therefore, we can't really explain His need for Jesus to make a sacrifice to change the rules. It's just some inexplicable God stuff.Yeah, it's confusing but I found a book on the subject for $14.65 on Amazon with free shipping to clarify it all for me. IF I ever want to get saved and join a religous cult, I want to do it right! Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Oh, I know this conversation has sailed but I forgot I found a good chart pointing out the differences in the account of the ressurection.http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/...on_accounts.htm Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Speaking of child abuse, is God killing his only son sort of a cosmic child abuse? Link to post Share on other sites
BigDMcGee 3,352 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Speaking of child abuse, is God killing his only son sort of a cosmic child abuse?Spare the cross, spoil the child. Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 In all fairness to Brv he has been pretty cool about being ganged up on this thread and it's remained pretty civil without BG being antagonistic. I mean BG is fun and all but this is some interesting stuff.I know Speedz and others thing I have an obsession or something with this issue so I want to say a word about that. Over the last 5 years I rediscovered reading by listening to audiobooks 2 hours a day and reading many others at home. Mysteries got old real quick and I found a big interest in historical fiction about all kinds of places and cultures, The Lacuna and Poisonwood Bible both by Kingsolver for example. And well, Christianity is a very large influence throughout history and pretty fascinating stuff. A World LIt only by Fire was fantastic. I've also read a lot of the books by athiest authors as well, HItchens, Dawkins, etc..So it's not simply reading a book on Atonement, it's the hisorical views, who came up with them and why, what influences are today, etc. that tend to make those type of books very interesting. Besides it's kind of fun to come to the realization of things people think and how minds have changed over time. You know, like the fact that the highest being God ever created, known as Satan or the Devil, led an angelic rebellion against an omnipotent omniscient omnibenelovent omnipresent God, and expected to win!!I mean Satan has to be pure evil AND dumber than a box of rocks. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 How it works is dependent on whether you are Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, etc. There is a lot of dissagreement over this and each sect thinks the other is actually going to hell for doing it wrong. Each thinks you need to do different things to be saved and obviously the Catholics think you are going to hell since you are doing it wrong (for example).Not correct. Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 Dear Evangelical Christians:God here.First, I do not exist. The concept of a 13,700,000,000 year old being, capable of creating the entire universe and its billions of galaxies, monitoring simultaneously the thoughts and actions of the 7 billion human beings on this planet is ludicrous. Grow a brain.Second, if I did, I would have left you a book a little more consistent, timeless and independently verifiable than the collection of Iron Age Middle Eastern mythology you call the Bible. Hell, I bet you cannot tell me one thing about any of its authors, their credibility or their possible ulterior motives, yet you cite them for the most extraordinary of claims.Thirdly, when I sent my “son” (whatever that means, given that I am god and do not mate) to Earth, he would have visited the Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, Russians, sub-Saharan Africans, Australian Aboriginals, Mongolians, Polynesians, Micronesians, Indonesians and native Americans, not just a few Jews. He would also have exhibited a knowledge of something outside of the Iron Age Middle East.Fourthly, I would not spend my time hiding, refusing to give any tangible evidence of my existence, and then punish those who are smart enough to draw the natural conclusion that I do not exist by burning them forever. That would make no sense to me, given that I am the one who withheld evidence of my existence in the first place.Fifth, I would not care who you do or how you “do it.” I really wouldn’t. This would be of no interest to me, given that I can create universes. Oh, the egos.Sixth, I would have smited all evangelicals and fundamentalists long before this. You people drive me nuts. You are so small minded and yet you speak with such false authority. Many of you still believe in the talking snake nonsense from Genesis. I would kill all of you for that alone and burn you for an afternoon (burning forever is way too barbaric for me to even contemplate).Seventh, the whole idea of members of one species on one planet surviving their own physical deaths to “be with me” is utter, mind-numbing nonsense. Grow up. You will die. Get over it. I did. Hell, at least you had a life. I never even existed in the first place.Eighth, I do not read your minds, or “hear your prayers” as you euphemistically call it. There are 7 billion of you. Even if only 10% prayed once a day, that is 700,000,000 prayers. This works out at 8,000 prayers a second — every second of every day. Meanwhile I have to process the 100,000 of you who die every day between heaven and hell. Dwell on the sheer absurdity of that for a moment.Finally, the only reason you even consider believing in me is because of where you were born. Had you been born in India, you would likely believe in the Hindu gods, if born in Tibet, you would be a Buddhist. Every culture that has ever existed has had its own god(s) and they always seem to favor that particular culture, its hopes, dreams and prejudices. What, do you think we all exist? If not, why only yours?Look, let’s be honest with ourselves. There is no god. Believing in me was fine when you thought the World was young, flat and simple. Now we know how enormous, old and complex the Universe is.Move on — get over me. I did.God Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 "Some may say 'because I am elect, it doesn’t really matter how I live or what I do.' Well the one thing I can say for sure about you is that you might be elect, but you are not yet converted." - Dr. Joseph Pipa Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 In all fairness to Brv he has been pretty cool about being ganged up on this thread and it's remained pretty civil without BG being antagonistic. I mean BG is fun and all but this is some interesting stuff.Well I was going to play catch up... Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted November 15, 2011 Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 Well I was going to play catch up...hahahahahaha Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 hahahahahahaFunny for you maybe...but my feeling was hurt.At least I think it was, I'm not sure where it is. Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted November 16, 2011 Author Share Posted November 16, 2011 Funny for you maybe...but my feeling was hurt.At least I think it was, I'm not sure where it is.Maybe what I wrote came out wrong. It is simply different bantering with you vs Brv. You add a ton of humor and are a blast to banter with, along with being very informed. I missed you actually. When responding to posts I think alot of us respond differently, or at least I do, to you than we would to brv. It's more about how I respond to the posts, and I am much more sarcastic responding to you than I would be to brv and it's hard to go back and forth. In other words I am conscous of hurting his feelings but think you understand the difference. But I would love it if you would jump in and respond to some various posts. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,752 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 but think you understand the difference.You dirty son-of-a-GUN. Link to post Share on other sites
Roll the Bones 74 Posted November 16, 2011 Author Share Posted November 16, 2011 I'm an athiest not a goddam feelings counselor here guys!!!haha Link to post Share on other sites
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