Creation Museum

[Balloon guy 158]

Yes. The Christians have a real problem here trying to balance their lust for forgiveness with their desire to discourage sin.

Actually James addressed this in his book which Randy was misunderstanding.A common question for all Christians is: "How do I know I am accepted and forgiven?"The answer is: "You show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works"

All of this is solved by the deeper understanding that heaven and hell are psychological states that one enters during the course of living. Heaven in this context is the state of having a clear conscience; hell is living with the weight of guilt. Can you have a clear conscience after raping and murdering for years? It's theoretically possible but extremely difficult to achieve. It certainly isn't as simple as "asking for forgiveness".

I used to think a similar thing, before I experienced true forgiveness. It isn't something that you can understand until you experience it.Of course we could go into Pascal's Wager because I learned to program in Pascal years ago and think he was pretty amazing.

[Balloon guy 158]

This is as silly as what Randy said. The fact that they are surprised in the story does not constitute evidence that the story is true.

Correct, but neither does 4 different people, writing to 4 different audiences, having variations that do not conflict, constitute evidence that the stories are false.In fact they really go very far in destroying Randy's argument that the Gospels were changed many times over the years.If they all said exactly the same thing, you guys would scream "Collusion"Since they have variations you instead scream: "Can't be describing the same thing."I wish you would quit screaming.

[Balloon guy 158]

Thanks. I promise to let you win our jousts at least 51% of the time.I hope my conversation with god after I die is this easy.

It could be.....

[brvheart 1,752]

so god puts belief in him over not raping little girls.

You're talking about two different things. This is a false choice. Sin can't enter heaven. It doesn't matter what the sin. The only way to be forgiven is through Jesus.

yeah i think i would. i just hope my parents arent near me. i dont want my mom popping in while partying it up in heaven for all eternity.New Topic For Brvheart: What do you think heaven is like?I mean do you retain your physical form; is it like the updated star wars movies where you look like yourself except you are glowing with the power of god (the force)? Is there talking, if so, what language? Does god hang out with everyone or does he keep to himself? Can i check in on the people i leave behind? Where is heaven? Is there sex? What if you were married twice (because of death), can you be with both wives? If I look like me can I choose what age I appear? General thoughts?

This discussion wouldn't go anywhere, and so I won't even start it.But most people assume that heaven is being described in Revelation 21 and the beginning of 22.

[speedz99 145]

What percentage of christians would you consider to be "true" christians? You know, really believe and understand in everything from the bible, do the right things about it, etc...

[Dread Aidan 8]

This discussion wouldn't go anywhere...

Except to the Holoceptionix, right speedz?

[brvheart 1,752]

What percentage of christians would you consider to be "true" christians? You know, really believe and understand in everything from the bible, do the right things about it, etc...

That wouldn't be my definition of "True Christian".Because I don't know that it's possible to really understand everything in the Bible, and I know for a fact that it's not possible to do the right things all the time... which is the exact point of the earlier discussion.I would guess that the number of "christians" that understand the basic gospel, that is, that forgiveness is completely unearned, and salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, at around 5-20%. But again, I'm not God and won't be the judge.You would be surprised that the general lack of knowledge or caring among people that would say they were christians.The far majority of christians that I have talked with over the years would answer the following question in this manner:Q: How do you get to heaven?A: By being good and stuff.

[Dread Aidan 8]

You would be surprised that the general lack of knowledge or caring among people that would say they were christians.The far majority of christians that I have talked with over the years would answer the following question in this manner:Q: How do you get to heaven?A: By being good and stuff.

But what percentage of those people would be saved?I don't think someone would identify himself as a Christian just because he's being good and stuff. He might think that is part of the deal, but that wouldn't preclude him from being a "true Christian."

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

all those christians (who believe in jesus) are going to pretty happy when they get heaven and realize all that fear about sinning was wasted time. so long as they believe in jesus they dont have to be good people. damn that's sweet for them!

[Dread Aidan 8]

all those christians (who believe in jesus) are going to pretty happy when they get heaven and realize all that fear about sinning was wasted time. so long as they believe in jesus they dont have to be good people. damn that's sweet for them!

Ok, Randy Jr.

[brvheart 1,752]

But what percentage of those people would be saved?I don't think someone would identify himself as a Christian just because he's being good and stuff. He might think that is part of the deal, but that wouldn't preclude him from being a "true Christian."

I agree that it's possible that someone might think it's part of the deal, but if you don't understand the absolute basics of Christ's message, that you must be perfect, you can't be perfect, the penalty for not being perfect is eternal separation, and Jesus is the only way you can attain "perfection", I personally feel, it would be pretty hard to be a "true Christian". But like I said, I'm not the one looking at the hearts.

[brvheart 1,752]

all those christians (who believe in jesus) are going to pretty happy when they get heaven and realize all that fear about sinning was wasted time. so long as they believe in jesus they dont have to be good people. damn that's sweet for them!

I'm starting to feel like you haven't been reading any of my posts.

[BaseJester 1]

Correct, but neither does 4 different people, writing to 4 different audiences, having variations that do not conflict, constitute evidence that the stories are false.

The gospels conflict about the women visiting Jesus' tomb.

[brvheart 1,752]

The gospels conflict about the women visiting Jesus' tomb.

No they don't. Just because one guy listed extra people and one guy left them out doesn't mean anything is contradictory. There was a group of women of unknown size and different guys mentioned a few from the group that he felt like mentioning.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

Ok, Randy Jr.

I'm starting to feel like you haven't been reading any of my posts.

did you not just say that faith in christ is the only way to salvation? let me look...

salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone.

you did say that. so yes, i did read it.

[brvheart 1,752]

Ok, Randy Jr.

You do realize that no one is taking exception to that part of your post... right? Right?

[Dread Aidan 8]

You do realize that no one is taking exception to that part of your post... right? Right?

I don't know what this means.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

i mean i dont see how i'm the one who isnt making sense here. brv explicitly says that he thinks that it is impossible to attain salvation on your own. jesus had to die for us so we could be with god again. yes? okay, well he then says salvation is by faith alone. yes? okay: to me that means that we are going to sin anyways, so god handled it by having jesus die for us. believing that is the only requirement for heaven - therefore, you dont even have to be a good person to get into heaven, you just have to believe that jesus is the only way.that's what brv has been saying. and i find that laughably stupid.

[BaseJester 1]

No they don't. Just because one guy listed extra people and one guy left them out doesn't mean anything is contradictory. There was a group of women of unknown size and different guys mentioned a few from the group that he felt like mentioning.

Look at these two accounts. In Matthew, Mary Magdalene visits the tomb and an angel tells her Jesus has risen.In John, Mary Magdalene visits the tomb and then tells the disciples the body has been stolen.

1 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. 2 And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. 3 And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. 5 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. 6 He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. 7 Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him; behold, I have told you.” 8 And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus *said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.” 11 Now while they were on their way, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all that had happened. 12 And when they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 and said, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep.’ 14 And if this should come to the governor’s ears, we will win him over and keep you out of trouble.” 15 And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day.

1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene *came early to the tomb, while it *was still dark, and *saw the stone already taken away from the tomb. 2 So she *ran and *came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and *said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.” 3 So Peter and the other disciple went forth, and they were going to the tomb. 4 The two were running together; and the other disciple ran ahead faster than Peter and came to the tomb first; 5 and stooping and looking in, he *saw the linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in. 6 And so Simon Peter also *came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he *saw the linen wrappings lying there, 7 and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. 8 So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb then also entered, and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. 10 So the disciples went away again to their own homes. 11 But Mary was standing outside the tomb weeping; and so, as she wept, she stooped and looked into the tomb; 12 and she *saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying. 13 And they *said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She *said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.” 14 When she had said this, she turned around and *saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing Him to be the gardener, she *said to Him, “Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away.” 16 Jesus *said to her, “Mary!” She turned and *said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher). 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene *came, announcing to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and that He had said these things to her.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

i mean i dont see how i'm the one who isnt making sense here. brv explicitly says that he thinks that it is impossible to attain salvation on your own. jesus had to die for us so we could be with god again. yes? okay, well he then says salvation is by faith alone. yes? okay: to me that means that we are going to sin anyways, so god handled it by having jesus die for us. believing that is the only requirement for heaven - therefore, you dont even have to be a good person to get into heaven, you just have to believe that jesus is the only way.that's what brv has been saying. and i find that laughably stupid.

Being a good person isn't what causes you to get into heaven. Being a good person is like a by product of your faith. Think of it this way. You're driving a hydrogen car to heaven. The engine is christ, the fuel is faith. Good works is water. IF you put faith into the car, you're going to get to heaven, and it's going to jizz out good works as a by product of that faith fuel on the way to heaven. But, if you pour good works into the engine, all you're going to do is sit in Satan's Quik-e-Mart parkinglot waiting for AAA to tow you to hell. What I don't think you get about this whole thing, is faith is not an intellectual event. Thinking christ died for your sins isn't the same as having "Faith" that christ died for your sins. Accepting the idea that christ is your L&S is supposed to be a transformative spiritual, not intellectual, event. The act of accepting it, you bring "christ into yoru life" and the holy spirt and what not. So, from then on you have a "relationship with christ", you have capital F Faith, which is spiritual thing, and the by product of that faith is you're a kinder, nicer person, that you become more and more christ like. You won't be perfect, but you'll be better and better, and christ will forgive you of your sins, based on that relationship, that faith you now have in him. That's what people mean when they say they are "Born again".Or so the theory goes. I can't imagine what an unbearable asshole brv was before he had faith, if this is him post-christ's love in his heart.

[brvheart 1,752]

Look at these two accounts. In Matthew, Mary Magdalene visits the tomb and an angel tells her Jesus has risen.In John, Mary Magdalene visits the tomb and then tells the disciples the body has been stolen.

Why couldn't have she done both?Most women I know, especially in a stressful situation, have mouths that run twice as fast as their brains.

[brvheart 1,752]

all those christians (who believe in jesus) are going to pretty happy when they get heaven and realize all that fear about sinning was wasted time. so long as they believe in jesus they dont have to be good people. damn that's sweet for them!

I don't know what DA was saying so I'll just bold the section that I took exception to...

[brvheart 1,752]

I can't imagine what an unbearable asshole brv was before he had faith, if this his him post-christ's love in his heart.

ps. I don't disagree with anything that BigD said doctrinally.

On that note, as far as Conservitards go, brvheart is by far my favorite. Considering I'm a jerk and tend not to like people who are overtly Christian, my reasonably high opinion of brvheart means something.

I agree completely.

[brvheart 1,752]

therefore, you dont even have to be a good person...that's what brv has been saying.

no. You're not getting it. Read BigD's post twice.Then look up the two words that give Randy a problem... justification¹ vs. sanctification².¹Justification is the chief article of faith describing God's act of declaring or making a sinner righteous through Christ's atoning sacrifice.²Sanctification is the act or process of acquiring sanctity, of being made or becoming holy.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

so brvheart comes in here talking about faith alone is the way to salvation. you cannot get into heaven unless you believe that jesus christ died for our sins because we as humans are weak and could never live in a way that would make us worthy to be with god. so from this, i take the idea that faith in jesus is more important than being a good person. a person who believes jesus died for humanity and our salvation that beats his wife will get into heaven and an athiest who spends his life helping people in any way possible, never harming a single person will not. what seperates these people is the faith. the faith is the only thing that matters. so i say that all those priests who were raping children will still get into heaven because they believed in jesus christ and had faith that he died for us imperfect sinners. then you claim that "faith" isnt just something you know, its a way of living. its a way of being. and to that i say horseshit. that's a bullshit cop-out. if you're going to claim that anyone who does something that you dont like didnt "really have faith" then i say you're just making this shit up. either your good works dont matter and its faith alone or it isnt and you need both. if "faith alone" is enough for salvation than what you do doesnt matter. otherwise we arent using the words "faith" and "believe" in the same way.