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So what would you have done before germ theory? Just ignored the advice of the crazy wacko that said to wash your hands?I mean, you can take the high road, and say, "since it can't be proven, then I'll take the skeptical approach".But it might cost you your life.
It could be proven that hand washing improved the odds of staying alive before people knew exactly why.
Correct. Blasphemy of the holy spirit is the only sin mentioned in the Bible as unforgivable, and most Scholars believe that that was a sin that could only be committed when Jesus was on Earth and immediately after. It was seeing a work of God, and attributing it to Satan.
Crap, I'm still on the hook.Although I feel like these scholars are just making a convenient assumption...what about that passage reads that way? Is it in the context of talking about jesus's time on earth?
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I actually believe that, and it's one of the reasons that I've always been a very big fan of yours. You're sincere, and the rarity of sincerity never ceases to amaze me. More importantly, though: you

I looked up that passage and didn't see where it said "salvation is by good works." 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save t

I think it's more like, "Without faith, it doesn't matter what you do." Meaning you can't just be a good person to get into heaven.Regarding the first point, if you're standing in the middle of the r

It could be proven that hand washing improved the odds of staying alive before people knew exactly why.
My point still stands, just change it to anything else that was widely accepted by the public that wasn't a good idea. (bloodletting??)
Although I feel like these scholars are just making a convenient assumption...what about that passage reads that way? Is it in the context of talking about jesus's time on earth?
I understand, but even if it's still true, it doesn't change anything from a doctrinal standpoint.For instance, from VB's link, it sounds like Calvin believed that it was still unforgivable:"I say, therefore, that he sins against the Holy Spirit who, while so constrained by the power of divine truth that he cannot plead ignorance, yet deliberately resists, and that merely for the sake of resisting."but mainly because the person with knowledge of the truth, decided to turn from it. If a person is turning from the truth of the Holy Spirit, then he won't care that it's not forgivable. It's like a person giving up their citizenship to the US.
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So what would you have done before germ theory? Just ignored the advice of the crazy wacko that said to wash your hands?I mean, you can take the high road, and say, "since it can't be proven, then I'll take the skeptical approach".But it might cost you your life.
Probably. Skeptics are susceptible to confirmation bias as well obviously, that's why science developed things like double blind tests. They go into a problem "assuming" they are wrong and try to prove themselves right. You seem to be doing the opposite, assuming the bible is correct and looking at every instance to verify it's correctness. If it hadn't been for skeptics, we'd never have "germ theory" and would likely still be many things the bible told us to be true that are wrong, like thinking leprosy was mold.
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My point still stands, just change it to anything else that was widely accepted by the public that wasn't a good idea. (bloodletting??)
Bloodletting seems like a good example of how skepticism is a good policy.Could you step me through the logic of how this example supports your position instead of undermining it?
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Oh heck no. This is a complete misunderstanding of James.... and this is obviously correct.
No, it seems pretty obvious to me. I think you are reading something into it that isn't there. Either the bible is contradictory or their was a problem with interpretation or something. How could divnely inspired words from God be this contradictory or missleading though?How about something simple like the time of Jesus death?There are all kinds of contradictions amongst the gospels though.Did Joseph take his family to Jerusalem after Jesus was born?Where did the disciples first meet the resurrected Jesus?These are basic things. There are also obviously plagarized and things added later not in the original, like the story of Jesus saying, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" story about preventing the woman from being stoned for adultry.
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Bloodletting seems like a good example of how skepticism is a good policy.
Totally agree. I screwed the pooch. I was thinking of opposites and went with the wrong side on that one.My problem was when I set it up by saying "that was widely accepted by the public that wasn't a good idea" instead of "something that was good that wasn't widely accepted".
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No, it seems pretty obvious to me. I think you are reading something into it that isn't there. Either the bible is contradictory or their was a problem with interpretation or something. How could divnely inspired words from God be this contradictory or missleading though?
This stuff isn't contradictory at all. James is reinforcing the Gospels.
How about something simple like the time of Jesus death?There are all kinds of contradictions amongst the gospels though.Did Joseph take his family to Jerusalem after Jesus was born?Where did the disciples first meet the resurrected Jesus?
None of this stuff matters. The gospels were all written by different people from different perspectives and the tiny differences make no difference. Who cares about the exact time Jesus died? No one had a watch.
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Totally agree. I screwed the pooch. I was thinking of opposites and went with the wrong side on that one.
Haha
None of this stuff matters. The gospels were all written by different people from different perspectives and the tiny differences make no difference. Who cares about the exact time Jesus died? No one had a watch.
But his point is that "divinely-inspired" should preclude inconsistencies.
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I couldn't stop laughing a minute into this to be honest. "You have to consider the historocity of the times and the people seeing Jesus perform miracles, even though they saw him perform the miracles, believed it was Beezlebub, the demon working through Jesus"....So many things that make me want my head to asplode. listened some more... hahaha"So, just because they were skeptics wasn't enough, the fact that they had an ongoing problem with believing the miracles is the unpardonable offense". Umm, wouldn't that be Jesus fault for not making the miracles a little more convincing? He was apparently a poor miracle worker or the poor skeptics wouldn't have had to doubt so much.I mean, this is all pure guess workout on this yahoo's part, since there is no direct historical evidence of Jesus even being alive, let alone what was going on in people's minds that supposedly watched him perform miracles. But this is supposed to explain unpardonable sin from the biblical perspective? We should just ignore what the bible says and interpret what we want to believe right on in there I suppose.
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Or he was working against the status quo. Is it really that hard to think that the Pharisees didn't want to lose their positions and power?

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I looked up that passage and didn't see where it said "salvation is by good works."

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

I interpret that as saying that if you truly believe, then you will want to show it by your actions. If you just say you believe, but never show it, then you don't really believe.

Okay, let's go back to this. It is obvious that the "deeds" part is important. Let's just agree with your and brv's assesment here. That if don't act on your faith you are not a true believer and thus- don't really believe. Your deeds, thus represent your true faith and thus are necessary for salvation.Which brings me back to this,
Salvation is by faith, apart from works. (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16)
That seems to say, "It doesn't matter what you do, as long as you have faith!"
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Or he was working against the status quo. Is it really that hard to think that the Pharisees didn't want to lose their positions and power?
Or maybe Ra the Sun God was talking to them, or the demons from the verse I quoted above. Or maybe it was hellenistic Jews just out drunk giving the preacher man a hard time. The point is which you agree, WE DON'T KNOW. Which brings me back to my original point. If it is the divenly inspired word of God, through divinely inspired writers, why didn't he make it more clear as to how in the hell we are supposed to be saved? We can't be sure what unpardonable sin really is, can we? And if we can't, what are we doing here?
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Okay, let's go back to this. It is obvious that the "deeds" part is important. Let's just agree with your and brv's assesment here. That if don't act on your faith you are not a true believer and thus- don't really believe. Your deeds, thus represent your true faith and thus are necessary for salvation.Which brings me back to this,That seems to say, "It doesn't matter what you do, as long as you have faith!"
I think it's more like, "Without faith, it doesn't matter what you do." Meaning you can't just be a good person to get into heaven.Regarding the first point, if you're standing in the middle of the road and a truck is headed right for you at 60 mph and you say, "That truck is going to run me over!" and then you just stand there, do you really believe that truck is going to run you over? (You know, assuming you have a desire to not be run over.)If you truly became a believer and then somebody immediately shot you, that wouldn't mean you weren't going to heaven because you didn't get a chance to express your belief. So it's not that deeds are necessary for salvation. Deeds are merely an indicator of your belief.
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I started to save some time and pull up the Romans quote for you, which was about having faith and not having to follow laws, but got sidetracked. When reading Romans I forgot that all this doesn't matter, God predains who gets in anyway.For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate ... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.Romans 8:29-30For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. Romans 9:11But this says it pretty spot on as well,He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having predestinated us ... according to the good pleasure of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5So, how does this pre-ordained thing work? If you are a child that is pre-ordained can you then bypass the being saved part? Do your actions matter then, or does God give you a special life and will that keeps you from being skeptical?

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Sorry, to be jumping around but this is more for BG I suppose. I found a little synopsis of one of Ehrman's lectures about the book and a person took notes more or less and came up with this,Historians don't consider the KJV to be historically as authentic or original as some other versionsMost modern versions like the NASB, NIV, ESV (the 2001 English Standard Version) are based on the Westcott-Hort Greek text, which there are differences of some 5000 words and many whole verses from the New Testament Greek text that the King James Bible is derived from.The W-H text is based primarily on two manuscripts called Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. These two texts disagree significantly with each other, let alone with the vast majority of all other texts, in over 3000 places in the gospels alone, and over 1000 times in the rest of the New Testament. Yet they form the textual basis of most modern bible versions. Sinaiticus and Vaticanus were not found until after the KJV was already written, so they are older and more original. They are considred to show just how much a bible can change over time.The Masocretic texts that the modern bible is based on are obviously historically inferior to Sinaticus and Vatinicus which are far older.5 modern interpretations of scripture that are supposed to be able to objectively be proven false-1. The story of the woman who was to be stoned never happened and was not originally in the bible2. the trinity did not exist in the original texts3. Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Jesus- Jesus the Nazarene means Jesus the Essene, not Jesus of Nazareth4. Mary Magdalene being a prostitute rather than the head disciple of Jesus5. The Resurrection was not in the oldest texts

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Sorry, but I was in an extremely horrible mood this morning and this kept my mind off of it all day so I appreciate the banter, btw.

I think it's more like, "Without faith, it doesn't matter what you do." Meaning you can't just be a good person to get into heaven.Regarding the first point, if you're standing in the middle of the road and a truck is headed right for you at 60 mph and you say, "That truck is going to run me over!" and then you just stand there, do you really believe that truck is going to run you over? (You know, assuming you have a desire to not be run over.)If you truly became a believer and then somebody immediately shot you, that wouldn't mean you weren't going to heaven because you didn't get a chance to express your belief. So it's not that deeds are necessary for salvation. Deeds are merely an indicator of your belief.
So, if you said, "hey, I believe and have faith and all, but I am not going to get circumsized no matter what you say" then that would obviously be an indicator, correct? If you proclaim faith, but don't follow the rules you'd be screwed then, amirite?
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So, if you said, "hey, I believe and have faith and all, but I am not going to get circumsized no matter what you say" then that would obviously be an indicator, correct? If you proclaim faith, but don't follow the rules you'd be screwed then, amirite?
If you thought those rules still applied, then it would be an indicator.This discussion reminds me of what the great philosopher Adam Carolla says, "If you really believe in God and that he knows everything you do, you wouldn't be doing half the stuff you do."
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But his point is that "divinely-inspired" should preclude inconsistencies.
Don't make me quote Rudy again.
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That seems to say, "It doesn't matter what you do, as long as you have faith!"
No it's not. It's saying that Salvation is a free gift, just like the rest of the Bible. It's not saying anything about how to live after you have salvation.
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5 modern interpretations of scripture that are supposed to be able to objectively be proven false-1. The story of the woman who was to be stoned never happened and was not originally in the bible2. the trinity did not exist in the original texts3. Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Jesus- Jesus the Nazarene means Jesus the Essene, not Jesus of Nazareth4. Mary Magdalene being a prostitute rather than the head disciple of Jesus5. The Resurrection was not in the oldest texts
Why don't you just tell us which sections of the NT the website you get your information from says is part of the "original texts". For instance, does your site say the Gospel of John is one of the "original texts"? What parts of John made your list and which ones didn't?
So, if you said, "hey, I believe and have faith and all, but I am not going to get circumsized no matter what you say" then that would obviously be an indicator, correct? If you proclaim faith, but don't follow the rules you'd be screwed then, amirite?
... ?DA is way more patient than I am, and said the same thing I would have.
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5 modern interpretations of scripture that are supposed to be able to objectively be proven false-
This sentence is painfully weaselly.
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