Creation Museum

[vbnautilus 48]

Not as far as Milken's $800 million didIt would take Bakker 200 years to steal as much as Milken got to keep if he maintained the $4million a year con game.500 years to steal as much as Milken did.500 years.

The more I think about this comparison, the more it seems that the difference between the two cases was that Milken still had money. People wanted their money back and so there was pressure to strike a deal; he ended up paying out over a billion. Bakkkkker simply had no money to deal with. This isn't a case of christian vs. non-christian, it's really more a case of super-rich guy vs. poor guy pretending to be rich.

[timwakefield 68]

So he cut out 1/200ths ( you like percentages ) of his stolen loot to get a tax write off and a dinner in his honer and now we are supposed to feel grateful?You guys are hating on Bakker while giving Milken a full pass because he used a tiny portion of the money he stole to help people?

First of all, you obviously didn't read the article. Second of all, I never gave Milken a pass for his crimes! I just thought it was completely arbitrary for you to compare him and his crimes to Bakker and his. Milken has become a well-known advocate, financier, and actual mover in the field of cancer research and cures. All Bakker has done since getting out of jail is....become a televangelist again. No, really.* But you still haven't answered why Bakker gets your forgiveness and Milken is apparently a devil.*

$100.00Quick OverviewWhen you give a one time donation to support the "I Care" ministry through the 2nd Harvest Offering you will receive 'Stella's Sisters' by Philip Cameron and an I Care hat in the color of your choice. Color choices include Red, Royal Blue, Black, Coffee Bean Brown, Tropical Pink, Kelly Green, Orange, Almond, or Navy Blue.You can adjust the dollar amount to give more than $100.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! He'll also sell you some incredibly overpriced vitamins, some dubious sounding "Sleep Bands" (to help you fall asleep! only $50 each! seriously!), and something to do with drinking silver or something, and squirting it up your nose - really weird sounding stuff. But I'm sure he's doing it all for God's grace and isn't trying to make a ton of money off of it or anything like that.

[Balloon guy 158]

First of all, you obviously didn't read the article. Second of all, I never gave Milken a pass for his crimes! I just thought it was completely arbitrary for you to compare him and his crimes to Bakker and his. Milken has become a well-known advocate, financier, and actual mover in the field of cancer research and cures. All Bakker has done since getting out of jail is....become a televangelist again. No, really.* But you still haven't answered why Bakker gets your forgiveness and Milken is apparently a devil.

I am not tearing down Milken because of me, I am tearing down Milken because you are placing him on a pedestal.If Bernie Madoff got to keep $800 million of his loot, and donated $100 million to cancer research, would you give him a full pass for the harm he caused?Cause you are for Milken. And Milken didn't give half that to cancer research.And of course the people getting those donations are going to say nice things about him. Their in the business of thanking people who give them money. Quoting them is like quoting a crack head what he thinks of Justin Bieber after Beiber gives him a $100."That's kids GREAT"

*Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! He'll also sell you some incredibly overpriced vitamins, some dubious sounding "Sleep Bands" (to help you fall asleep! only $50 each! seriously!), and something to do with drinking silver or something, and squirting it up your nose - really weird sounding stuff. But I'm sure he's doing it all for God's grace and isn't trying to make a ton of money off of it or anything like that.

Hater's gotta Hate

[Balloon guy 158]

The more I think about this comparison, the more it seems that the difference between the two cases was that Milken still had money. People wanted their money back and so there was pressure to strike a deal; he ended up paying out over a billion. Bakkkkker simply had no money to deal with. This isn't a case of christian vs. non-christian, it's really more a case of super-rich guy vs. poor guy pretending to be rich.

you guys keep saying this like it means something.He stole $2 billion.Yea but he paid back a BILLION DOLLARS...But he stole $2 billionHE PAID BACK A BILLION DOLLARS_{Stole two}PAID BACK A BILLION DOLLARS

[vbnautilus 48]

He stole $2 billion.

The point is when you have $1 billion to pay out you have leverage. But where are you getting this figure from? Losses from Milken less than estimatedThe estimated injury for all counts combined was by the judge's account $318,000 and by the US Probation Office's account $685,000.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

The point is when you have $1 billion to pay out you have leverage. But where are you getting this figure from? Losses from Milken less than estimatedThe estimated injury for all counts combined was by the judge's account $318,000 and by the US Probation Office's account $685,000.

Plus Milken might not have really done anything illegal at all.http://magazine.uchicago.edu/9510/October95Investig.html

[brvheart 1,752]

It would have 3 if VB was allowed to change it.

This was pretty funny, it's too bad nobody mentioned it.

[timwakefield 68]

I am not tearing down Milken because of me, I am tearing down Milken because you are placing him on a pedestal.

At no point did I place anybody on a pedestal. Nearly all of my posts have been about how much of a horrible douchebag Bakker is, and questioning why you chose Milken to compare him to. Then in one post I linked an article that talked about what he's done for cancer research. Hardly placing anybody on a pedestal. I linked an article from Forbes magazine, and barely commented on it.

If Bernie Madoff got to keep $800 million of his loot, and donated $100 million to cancer research, would you give him a full pass for the harm he caused?Cause you are for Milken. And Milken didn't give half that to cancer research.

No, he didn't give half of $100m to cancer research. He gave twice that. From my article which you gladly ignored:

Milken's philanthropy, the Prostate Cancer Foundation, formerly called CaP Cure, has raised $210 million from its founding in 1993 through 2003 (the latest audited figures), making it the world's largest private sponsor of prostate cancer research.

But virtually everyone agrees that Milken deserves an enormous share of the credit for the progress made against this major killer. "Mike's done more for prostate cancer research than anyone in America," says one of the nation's best-known prostate surgeons, Patrick Walsh, head of urology at Johns Hopkins.

That guy's putting him on a pedestal. Can you impugn Dr. Walsh's statement in any way? Or can we accept it?I'm just saying that Milken is a bizarre and unlikely person to use as a comparison to Jim Bakker.

Hater's gotta Hate

And economically corrupt religious leaders gotta keep selling bullshit (or non-existent!) merchandise at exorbitant prices. That's just how he rolls, I feel you.

[Balloon guy 158]

And the transformation is complete.Milken has not only not done anything wrong, he in fact is probably the greatest guy ever.The whole prison thing was his choice to serve time for all of us, to be the propitiation for our financial sins.And Jim Bakker is the greatest evil, for he sells things on TV...that are worth less than he paid for them. The monster.

[Balloon guy 158]

No, he didn't give half of $100m to cancer research. He gave twice that. From my article which you gladly ignored:

Ahh, back to individual numbers when it suits the cause.He was involved in a charity tax exempt trust that raised $200 million. ( Raising is different than giving, and there are some tax geniuses who can share with you why that is )Not 1/10th of the money he 'made' in the stock market.No, now it's two hundred MILLLLLLLLLLLLION dollars

[ajs510 122]

This is just like the plot of Wall Street 2...what a crappy movie that was.

[Balloon guy 158]

This is just like the plot of Wall Street 2...what a crappy movie that was.

That makes Tim Shia Labooooooof?And VB Gordon Gekko?That's leaves me as Winnie?

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

I actually liked Wall Street 2. I had zero expectations going in, so that usually helps.

[vbnautilus 48]

I actually liked Wall Street 2. I had zero expectations going in, so that usually helps.

I liked it too, partly because its true that Money Never Sleeps.

[Balloon guy 158]

I liked it too, partly because its true that Money Never Sleeps.

And Time is moneySo Time never sleepsWhich means eternity is a conscience realityWhich means there is a GodThe plan worked.

[vbnautilus 48]

And Time is moneySo Time never sleepsWhich means eternity is a conscience realityWhich means there is a GodThe plan worked.

If you had said "conscious reality" I would have had to start believing in god. So close.

[Balloon guy 158]

If you had said "conscious reality" I would have had to start believing in god. So close.

Wow, first my monochromaticism ruined everlasting life for one guy.Now my spelling skills ruined everlasting happiness for you.I really am a 3rd string player on God's team....

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

I really am a 3rd string player on God's team....

Or a 1st stringer on the other team...

[Balloon guy 158]

Or a 1st stringer on the other team...

Owww.That has so many connotations.New International Version (©1984)Matthew 12:30: "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.Like OOWWWWReminds me of a comedy sketch though done years back by some Christian sketch comedy group ( I know, has to be funny ) where they did a rehashing of their season in the baseball game between God and satan. They had just traded Judas for Paul and where talking about the likelihood of it helping the team.

[timwakefield 68]

Milken has not only not done anything wrong, he in fact is probably the greatest guy ever.

Re: greatest guy ever, I again ask:

Can you impugn Dr. Walsh's statement in any way?

"Mike's done more for prostate cancer research than anyone in America." - Dr. Patrick WalshOr can we consider that it might be true? While you're at it you could go ahead and impugn this guy's statement too:

"Michael Milken changed the culture of [medical] research," says Andrew von Eschenbach, director of the National Cancer Institute. "He created a sense of urgency that focused on results and shortened the timeline. It took a business mindset to shake things up. What he's done is now the model."

He was involved in a charity tax exempt trust that raised $200 million. ( Raising is different than giving, and there are some tax geniuses who can share with you why that is )

I was positive you'd jump on that. Raising certainly is different than giving. How many millions of dollars have you raised for cancer or disease research? How about Jim Bakker? Was it...$100 million? Cuz that'd be pretty incredible. Even $2 or $3 million would be pretty darn impressive.You seem to be implying that founding and heading an organization that has raised more money for prostate cancer research than any other organization ever is unremarkable. I'm not being nitpicky when I mention that the article where I got those numbers was written in 2004. You could have noticed that yourself if you'd even bothered to click the link (ignorance is bliss tho!). Anyway, what I'm taking too long to say here at the end is that the Prostate Cancer Foundation has, to date, "Raised nearly $450 million and provided funding for more than 1,500 research projects at nearly 200 institutions worldwide."Edit: Haha, I neglected to mention that he also founded The Melanoma Research Alliance in 2007. So far they've only given out $30 million in research grants. Bottom line: obviously this Milken guy is tha worst!

[Balloon guy 158]

Hah.You should know what I know about fund raisers.But you're right, making most of $2 billion with junk bonds and having to plead guilty for something that wasn't even illegal should be excusable if you give a portion of the money you received back to a function that you can write off your taxes later.

[vbnautilus 48]

Hah.You should know what I know about fund raisers.But you're right, making most of $2 billion with junk bonds and having to plead guilty for something that wasn't even illegal should be excusable if you give a portion of the money you received back to a function that you can write off your taxes later.

Knew you'd come around eventually.

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

So let's make this a hypothetical example and ignore any real-life details.A guy steals $2b from a whole bunch of ordinary people. He then takes every last penny of that and donates it to various worthwhile charities. Sort of a modern day Robin Hood. Do we label this as "a good thing?" Let's say of that $2b he stole $30k from middle class Dave. And because of this lost money, Dave has to postpone his retirement for five years. But that $30k was used to buy mosquito nets that saved the lives of thousands of African kids. Good thing?What if middle class Dave "invested" this money with Robin Hood because he needed a way to get more money for some radical new procedure that might cure his daughter's life-threatening disease? But that money still helped hundreds of other people. Good thing?Do we simply judge this sort of thing on a case by case basis? Let's say that he stole $250m from uber wealthy Edward. This stolen money did not harm Edward in any perceivable fashion. The money was used to further an untold number of advances in modern medicine, the benefits which cannot even be calculated. Surely this can't be a bad thing, right?When handing out a punishment, do we care who he helped or solely who he hurt?I'm not trying to make this an argument for any real-life people, I'm just interested in the ethics of it.

[timwakefield 68]

But you're right, making most of $2 billion with junk bonds and having to plead guilty for something that wasn't even illegal should be excusable if you give a portion of the money you received back to a function that you can write off your taxes later.

"Mike's done more for prostate cancer research than anyone in America." Please keep ignoring that since it's such a minor thing, and it could totally never have a massive positive effect on the life of someone in your family or the life of a friend, or even on your own life someday. It's not like one in six men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer in their lifetime.--------------------------------------------------------I'll let the rest of y'all start in on SJ's ethical dilemmas, mostly because I don't really know where to start. I think the main problem I'm having with trying to "solve" them is that it's extremely difficult to determine exactly what we mean by "good." What is clearly good for many (mosquito nets) is similarly crappy for others (Dave). I feel like only God has the aptitude to make absolute statements about ethical questions like those, but unfortunately He ain't said shit to anybody since He passed down those commandments like 8 gazillion years ago. Or maybe He has, I dunno. All the little sects believe such different things, it's impossible to keep up. Ethical questions like the ones you posed are, I think, too complicated and subjective for us to summarize as objectively "good" or "bad." I don't mean to stifle a discussion about them though - I mean this as a jumping off point."When handing out a punishment, do we care who he helped or solely who he hurt?"I think that's a very interesting question that we could definitely answer, or that could definitely have various interesting answers.

[Balloon guy 158]

"Mike's done more for prostate cancer research than anyone in America."

That's just silly, does he even know everyone in America?Of course you are right, there is no motivation to say anything but the absolute truth about any man who just gave you $20 million.

Please keep ignoring that since it's such a minor thing, and it could totally never have a massive positive effect on the life of someone in your family or the life of a friend, or even on your own life someday. It's not like one in six men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer in their lifetime.

Actually every man in the world will die of colon cancer if they are not first killed by something else.Pretty much you are guaranteed to get colon cancer if you live long enough, at least that's what my friend who beat it explained to me during his chemo. I do not know if he knows he is supposed to write a thank you note to Milken..or the republican senators who created the tax loophole that made this particular charity worth while