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No, there are a lot of goofy predictions.A mentor type for me early on told me this: There is a lot of money in end times prophecy.I've seen too many people trying to 'be the one to figure it out'. and so far, no good.
So you can't do the dating? hmmm. Guess I'll go with Pascal's wager and have at it, just in case. I really have been reading about all the Ghost Dance (American Indian) and prohecy thingys though. They seem to erupt where ever there are really oppressed people as a way to salvation/freedom/everlasting life etc.
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So you don't dicount the story of Apollonius of Tyana who died in AD 98, 6 decades after Jesus, it's just you'd give the story more validity if his followers were put to death for not recanting thier story? Well, that happened too. So you would say it's not a myth, it is factual based on writings and word of mouth?
I give more validity to the story when it was predicted about 483 years after the decree to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.That and the license for embellishment on his story is required to be very large to get his life to parallel the life of Christ. In fact, it is almost..almost a big a stretch as the one people try to make about the virgin birth of Christ being stolen from Greek mythology.Both are a pretty big stretch, both are probably not anywhere near true.
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So you can't do the dating? hmmm. Guess I'll go with Pascal's wager and have at it, just in case. I really have been reading about all the Ghost Dance (American Indian) and prohecy thingys though. They seem to erupt where ever there are really oppressed people as a way to salvation/freedom/everlasting life etc.
I noticed a show on History Channel tonight about this. I guess you feel they are just following the traditional path of waiting for really oppressed people to yearn for freedom/salvation/everlasting life?Guess having a democrat president will do that to a people. Make them yearn I mean.
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In fact, it is almost..almost a big a stretch as the one people try to make about the virgin birth of Christ being stolen from Greek mythology.
So what do you make of the striking similarities between the jesus story and the dionysus/orpheus myths? (Orpheus pictured in the talisman below)talisman1.gifNote that in this myth, which clearly predates christ: 1. He is God made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."2. His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin, 7 month pregnancy.3. He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.4. He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.5. He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.6. He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.7. After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.8. His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.9. His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood.You have to admit it sounds familiar!
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So what do you make of the striking similarities between the jesus story and the dionysus/orpheus myths?
Why has the Jesus story survived as reality for so many years while the dionysus/orpheus myths are considered just that?(Note: that wasn't me asking a question to make a point, I'm genuinely asking.)Was D/O always known to be just a story or was there a turning point somewhere for it?
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Why has the Jesus story survived as reality for so many years while the dionysus/orpheus myths are considered just that?(Note: that wasn't me asking a question to make a point, I'm genuinely asking.)Was D/O always known to be just a story or was there a turning point somewhere for it?
Because Dionysus and Orpheus never offered anyone free entry to heaven?Also, it's only reality for what, half the world?
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So what do you make of the striking similarities between the jesus story and the dionysus/orpheus myths? (Orpheus pictured in the talisman below)talisman1.gifNote that in this myth, which clearly predates christ: 1. He is God made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."2. His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin, 7 month pregnancy.3. He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.4. He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.5. He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.6. He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.7. After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.8. His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.9. His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood.You have to admit it sounds familiar!
Here is the full story..tell me if you think it still sounds familiar.This is a cherry picked attempt to pretend that the story of Christ was copied. By backwood fishermen in Judea, because we all know they were well read in Greek mythology, and they would not derive their story from Jewish scriptures that was written down long before Greek mythology, and they read from it every Saturday.
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The entire story of Christ (virgin birth, resurrection, performing miracles) is also the entire story of Horus from Egyptian legends. Is their really any question the Christ story is unoriginal?

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The entire story of Christ (virgin birth, resurrection, performing miracles) is also the entire story of Horus from Egyptian legends. Is their really any question the Christ story is unoriginal?
Orly?
Horus was born to the goddess Isis after she retrieved all the dismembered body parts of her murdered husband Osiris, except his penis which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by a catfish,[3][4] and used her magic powers to resurrect Osiris and fashion a gold phallus[5] to conceive her son.
Yea..Isis and Mary were practically sisters...It's a wonder we didn't see how similar those stories were before.
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Orly?Yea..Isis and Mary were practically sisters...It's a wonder we didn't see how similar those stories were before.
she had a kid without having sex. not sure why you bolded resurrection.
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Why has the Jesus story survived as reality for so many years while the dionysus/orpheus myths are considered just that?(Note: that wasn't me asking a question to make a point, I'm genuinely asking.)Was D/O always known to be just a story or was there a turning point somewhere for it?
I think this a really good question. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that people just don't believe in the greek gods any more. But not all christians have always taken this as fact. The thomas gospel is mostly a mythological perspective on the whole thing.
Here is the full story..tell me if you think it still sounds familiar.This is a cherry picked attempt to pretend that the story of Christ was copied. By backwood fishermen in Judea, because we all know they were well read in Greek mythology, and they would not derive their story from Jewish scriptures that was written down long before Greek mythology, and they read from it every Saturday.
I could find you 10 examples of the same story from around the world. Even the buddha story is essentially the same. There's no cherry picking necessary. Sure each one has some different details due to the specific cultures and times that expressed them, but the core of the story is the same. I don't think they were copied. I think similar myths arise around the world because they arise out of a common psychology. They express common facts about our lives and minds. The wheel wasn't invented in only one place.
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I don't think they were copied. I think similar myths arise around the world because they arise out of a common psychology. They express common facts about our lives and minds.
A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.
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she had a kid without having sex. not sure why you bolded resurrection.
She had sex with the dismembered body of her murdered husband after making a gold schlong...and she had other children, lots of them.That is not a virgin birth.The resurrection of her dead husband to give her a riding toy is miles apart from the resurrection of Christ to show that he had conquered death and paid the penalty of sin for all mankind.The only way you can make this connection is to allow for anything remotely similar to be 'good enough for you'.
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I think this a really good question. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that people just don't believe in the greek gods any more. But not all christians have always taken this as fact. The thomas gospel is mostly a mythological perspective on the whole thing. I could find you 10 examples of the same story from around the world. Even the buddha story is essentially the same. There's no cherry picking necessary. Sure each one has some different details due to the specific cultures and times that expressed them, but the core of the story is the same. I don't think they were copied. I think similar myths arise around the world because they arise out of a common psychology. They express common facts about our lives and minds. The wheel wasn't invented in only one place.
God having a plan for all of mankind, and that message getting around, can just as easily be interpreted as something we all know to be part of the meaning of life at a DNA level.But the story of Christ isn't the same as any of those other stories. It is radically different.
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But if the ONLY way you can discount this prophecy is to argue the usages of a specific Hebrew word, shabuwa, which when literally translated means sevened, can only mean what we understand the english translation of this word to be, then I guess we are pretty much on the home stretch of closing the door to this foolish notion that the Bible isn't the Word of God.
If the correct meaning of the word is 7 years in this sentence (and I'm not asserting here that it isn't), it seems a grave disservice to us to translate the word as week. The whole point of translating something is so that people can understand it without knowing the original language.
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If the correct meaning of the word is 7 years in this sentence (and I'm not asserting here that it isn't), it seems a grave disservice to us to translate the word as week. The whole point of translating something is so that people can understand it without knowing the original language.
This implies that there is always a word for word translation in all languages.There isn't.Some languages use tense to determine meaning of the word, their over all word count is really small, but with inflections they can express many different meanings.
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Why has the Jesus story survived as reality for so many years while the dionysus/orpheus myths are considered just that?(Note: that wasn't me asking a question to make a point, I'm genuinely asking.)Was D/O always known to be just a story or was there a turning point somewhere for it?
I think this a really good question. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that people just don't believe in the greek gods any more. But not all christians have always taken this as fact. The thomas gospel is mostly a mythological perspective on the whole thing. I could find you 10 examples of the same story from around the world. Even the buddha story is essentially the same. There's no cherry picking necessary. Sure each one has some different details due to the specific cultures and times that expressed them, but the core of the story is the same. I don't think they were copied. I think similar myths arise around the world because they arise out of a common psychology. They express common facts about our lives and minds. The wheel wasn't invented in only one place.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/howwebelieve.htmHere is a book review of the book I am currently just about finished with, How we believe. It is an easy and fun read and very insightful. He breaks down how we evolved traits of pattern recognition and agenticity, to stories, to myths, to morality, religon and then gods.It has a very interesting sections on myths. It has a good rebuttle to BG's morality debate, amongst other things.
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If the correct meaning of the word is 7 years in this sentence (and I'm not asserting here that it isn't), it seems a grave disservice to us to translate the word as week. The whole point of translating something is so that people can understand it without knowing the original language.
This implies that there is always a word for word translation in all languages.
My statement doesn't imply that in any way.If it is clear to a knowledgeable translator that the Hebrew word means a period of 7 years in this context, then he should express it using the English word years, which is unambiguous. If it is clear to a knowledgeable translator that the Hebrew word means a period of 7 days in this context, then he should express it using either of the English words weeks or days, both of which are unambiguous.If it is unclear to a knowledgeable translator which the Hebrew word means, he should preserve the ambiguity in English by writing a period of 7 days (or perhaps a period of 7 years) or similar language.It doesn't matter that Hebrew is imprecise in this case. English is not.If hypothetically Hebrew used the same word for year and leopard, how would you feel about this translation?And after the threescore and two leopards shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.That would be ****ing stupid, right? Because it's clear from the context that Daniel doesn't mean leopards.So is the word clear or not in the original context?
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My statement doesn't imply that in any way.If it is clear to a knowledgeable translator that the Hebrew word means a period of 7 years in this context, then he should express it using the English word years, which is unambiguous. If it is clear to a knowledgeable translator that the Hebrew word means a period of 7 days in this context, then he should express it using either of the English words weeks or days, both of which are unambiguous.If it is unclear to a knowledgeable translator which the Hebrew word means, he should preserve the ambiguity in English by writing a period of 7 days (or perhaps a period of 7 years) or similar language.It doesn't matter that Hebrew is imprecise in this case. English is not.If hypothetically Hebrew used the same word for year and leopard, how would you feel about this translation?And after the threescore and two leopards shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.That would be ****ing stupid, right? Because it's clear from the context that Daniel doesn't mean leopards.So is the word clear or not in the original context?
The goal of the translator is not to transliterate.It is to translate.They should never put in their thoughts of the true meaning behind the words.If you think about it you will see why.But go on believing that the Bible is wrong because the word sevened can only mean sevened days, not years, even though the math works out perfectly for a 483 year prophecy.Also make sure that you clearly lay the foundation that all prophecies for future events must fit a criteria you establish based on your current 21st century view point, and no acceptable allowances for changes in syntax or sentence structures can ever apply because after all...everybody has always spoken exactly thusly.Your foundation is cracking..might want to cover your eyes.
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And just to cliff note this because I am through taking crazy pills.Daniel says there will seventy weeks for the entire nation of Israel.After the decree to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, there will be 69 weeks then the coming of the Messiah. After that a gap called the time of the gentiles, then 1 more week.Using the calenders of their day, exactly 69 weeks of years ( 483 years ) from the time the walls of Jerusalem were ordered to be rebuilt, was the year Christ returned to Jerusalem on the back of the donkey for His triumphant entry spoken of in Isaiah.The Hebrew word for week here literally means sevened, as in multiplied by seven.Seeing as how the 483 year prophecy came true, we can see that in context this usage of the word sevened weeks, and the facts that 70 weeks is less than a year and a half ( and Israel actually survived past this time ) that the seventy weeks means seventy groups of seven years, or 490 years total.The final 7 years is also known as the tribulation time, the time where Israel's importance comes front and center and they become the central focus of the entire world.This was predicted almost 2,500 years ago, Israel disappeared off the face of the earth for almost 2,000 years, then came back and is now once again a central figure in world politics and focus.But all of this is to be discounted because Daniel should have not used a known idiom for the culture and time of his race, he should have used one that fits better with the idioms and culture of the English speaking people of the 21st century in Upper state New York between the months of May and July for everyone older than 23 with brown hair.So with full assurance of their ability to discount amazing things with the flip of their wrist..they have declared this tiny speck of an issue to be more than enough to ignore a prophecy made nearly 500 years before the event and written down in a book that we still have today and can verify it's prediction.Tomorrow the color blue will be orange, and Richard Dawkins will no longer have extremely bad breath.

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So you're using a site that accepts the prophecy *properly interpreted* (that is to say, with "weeks" not actually meaning "weeks") as truth, in order to "prove" that the prophecy is true. To quote Homer Simpson, "Mmmmm, circular."And you haven't supplied the word itself, nor any usage of it in a non-biblical context in which the word clearly means "7 years" despite actually being translated as "a week."All I'm asking for is the word itself and a neutral third party using it in a sentence. If it's a widely-accepted case of a word having multiple meanings, then that shouldn't be hard to find at all.Here is a chart of the 100 most common ancient Hebrew words used in the bible. It doesn't list "week," but you'll notice that "day" and "year" are completely, obviously different words, and there is no indication that they could have variant meanings.
The goal of the translator is not to transliterate.It is to translate.
You're actually saying just the opposite. Transliteration is the act of simply changing a word in X language to its equal word in Y language, letter by letter if they share an alphabet, without any attempt to impose or suggest meaning. Transliteration is exactly what you are asking for, while translation -- getting across the meaning of the passage but perhaps not its literal words -- is what Basejester is asking for.
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And just to cliff note this because I am through taking crazy pills.Daniel says there will seventy weeks for the entire nation of Israel.After the decree to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, there will be 69 weeks then the coming of the Messiah. After that a gap called the time of the gentiles, then 1 more week.Using the calenders of their day, exactly 69 weeks of years ( 483 years ) from the time the walls of Jerusalem were ordered to be rebuilt, was the year Christ returned to Jerusalem on the back of the donkey for His triumphant entry spoken of in Isaiah.The Hebrew word for week here literally means sevened, as in multiplied by seven.Seeing as how the 483 year prophecy came true, we can see that in context this usage of the word sevened weeks, and the facts that 70 weeks is less than a year and a half ( and Israel actually survived past this time ) that the seventy weeks means seventy groups of seven years, or 490 years total.The final 7 years is also known as the tribulation time, the time where Israel's importance comes front and center and they become the central focus of the entire world.This was predicted almost 2,500 years ago, Israel disappeared off the face of the earth for almost 2,000 years, then came back and is now once again a central figure in world politics and focus.But all of this is to be discounted because Daniel should have not used a known idiom for the culture and time of his race, he should have used one that fits better with the idioms and culture of the English speaking people of the 21st century in Upper state New York between the months of May and July for everyone older than 23 with brown hair.So with full assurance of their ability to discount amazing things with the flip of their wrist..they have declared this tiny speck of an issue to be more than enough to ignore a prophecy made nearly 500 years before the event and written down in a book that we still have today and can verify it's prediction.Tomorrow the color blue will be orange, and Richard Dawkins will no longer have extremely bad breath.
That was the best laugh I have had in a while. Thank you.
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So you're using a site that accepts the prophecy *properly interpreted* (that is to say, with "weeks" not actually meaning "weeks") as truth, in order to "prove" that the prophecy is true. To quote Homer Simpson, "Mmmmm, circular."
Strong's Concordance has been the authority on Hebrew and Greek words of the Bible for a long long time. I understadn why you need to discount it, it would be bring devastation to your new books 'theories'.
And you haven't supplied the word itself, nor any usage of it in a non-biblical context in which the word clearly means "7 years" despite actually being translated as "a week."All I'm asking for is the word itself and a neutral third party using it in a sentence. If it's a widely-accepted case of a word having multiple meanings, then that shouldn't be hard to find at all.Here is a chart of the 100 most common ancient Hebrew words used in the bible. It doesn't list "week," but you'll notice that "day" and "year" are completely, obviously different words, and there is no indication that they could have variant meanings.
You are right.Daniel meant 483 days in his prophecy.He got it totally wrong, and in a twist of ironic fate, Jesus arrived in Jerusalem 483 years after Daniel's prophecy said He would.Wow, can you imagine the odds of that happening? Luckily you were able to catch that the word sevened can only be used to imply days, because no other type of counting of years has been used for scores, no decades, no centuries.But hey, congrats on your grasp of the usage of Hebrew in prophetic pronunciations. Most people don't have the stones to lay out their authority on such a difficult subject.You can understand how I could be fooled, you know because Christ fulfilled this prophecy at the odds of 1:1068252952 against.What a sense of humor the universe has to have the Messiah actually show up 483 years later, exactly when Daniel said He would, and how dumb of Daniel not to use the English words 'seven years' when he said Israel had 70 weeks. ( wonder why he would say 70 weeks instead of 490 days? Weird, doesn't he understand the idioms used in 21st century America and how this could cause a problem?)
You're actually saying just the opposite. Transliteration is the act of simply changing a word in X language to its equal word in Y language, letter by letter if they share an alphabet, without any attempt to impose or suggest meaning. Transliteration is exactly what you are asking for, while translation -- getting across the meaning of the passage but perhaps not its literal words -- is what Basejester is asking for.
So my mixing the two definitions makes me wrong about the reality of what turning Hebrew in English entails...okay, good thing for you this 'out' fits your needed loophole quota to ignore the forest be focusing on a single tree.You remind me of a Bible verse:Matthew 23:24
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