Stars $3 Rebuy 180 Turbo Thread

[HighwayStar 8]

This is why i think it's very important to make notes, or at least color code regs. Most good high volume turbo sng/mtt sng players play fairly similar, or at least will shove similar spots because most good players know when it's +ev to do so. If you have a better idea of the player, you should have a better idea of their range. Combining this knowledge with some tools that will allow you to analyze your play (I use sngwiz), it makes shove/fold a lot easier.

Yea colour coding is great to make decisions faster. VPIP/PFR on a HUD converge pretty fast (100-200 hands). Guys running 10/8-11/9 are the ones playing uber tight. These players have very similar ranges/styles to one another. People playing 13/11-17/14 are usually shoving reasonably wide in late position and have a wider variety of styles. Don't judge someone off much less than 100 hands though.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

This is why i think it's very important to make notes, or at least color code regs. Most good high volume turbo sng/mtt sng players play fairly similar, or at least will shove similar spots because most good players know when it's +ev to do so. If you have a better idea of the player, you should have a better idea of their range. Combining this knowledge with some tools that will allow you to analyze your play (I use sngwiz), it makes shove/fold a lot easier.

Yea colour coding is great to make decisions faster. VPIP/PFR on a HUD converge pretty fast (100-200 hands). Guys running 10/8-11/9 are the ones playing uber tight. These players have very similar ranges/styles to one another. People playing 13/11-17/14 are usually shoving reasonably wide in late position and have a wider variety of styles. Don't judge someone off much less than 100 hands though.

I have started to play enough where I have 100-150 hands with several people, and started taking notes basically labeling guys that I run across all the time (that have their tables/stars hidden). I also have been making notes of when/where THEY are shoving even if I am not involved in the particular hand, so I can learn from watching, and going back and posting questionable spots here so I know the proper way to play next time. It just sucks not being able to put a measuring stick up to results to see if I am actually getting any better, or just still sucking. You guys know when you have had a bad session by "variance", but someone like me that is still learning, it is hard to say if it is "variance" or making -ev plays and not realizing it. I know that when you are deeper in and a guy shoves QQ with ~10BBs PF and you have about ~10bbs and call him with AK suited and you don't hit, that could be variance. BUT, if I get knocked out because of it, then I like to go back and try to find what spots EARLIER in the tourney that I failed to take advantage of so that later on I have enough chips to "weather the storm" so to say. Grant it, sometimes you are just card dead and just don't get opportunities, but I guarantee you right now I probably pass up a few good spots and don't realize it. Ohh well. Rome was not built in a day, and neither can break even / small profit in poker either. Hope my rambling makes some kind of sense.

[babylondonks 5]

It definitely makes sense, and it's a really fantastic attitude to take to poker. Complacency is a serious issue among poker players in general and lots of people (myself included) often don't look beyond that one hand where they lose a flip at 10bb rather than also going back and finding other +ev spots we may have passed up. That said, in 180 turbos (it may be a tad different in $3rs, can't say I've ever played one) you're often going to find yourself with a <10bb stack just because of the structure, which is why the variance is so big in these, so I wouldn't worry overly much about always pushing marginal spots in an effort to "weather the storm".

[any2canlose 0]

2a...dont automatically classify 2x as a donk bet with stacks this shallow. Also why would you want to iso with what is more of a drawing hand than a power hand? You want to maximize your implied odds with Axs where x is below J (unless raiser is a short stack that you think you dominate fairly often).

[CorvairShaggy 5]

HAND #13 Cows play poker with cow chipsPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t400/t800 ante t75 - 7 playersButton dat2wong: t22,687 SB XplayordieX: t10,660 BB mondes 70: t34,887 UTG Hero: t11,564 UTG+1 Matososcity: t8,480 HJ AkilaN222: t17,520 CO maryn554: t10,000 Preflop: (t1,725) Hero is UTG with (7 players)Hero folds, Thoughts?? I had a really hard time folding this in the moment. This would have to be a shove/fold decision, but UTG with 4 other ~10BBs to act, any Ax could call. Simple open shove from CO+, but UTG with the stack sizes to act??

[HighwayStar 8]

Shove

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Shove

Well, at least the correct thought popped in my head first. I just over-analyzed I guess and talked myself out of it.Even though, I have started to notice a UTG shove in the semi-deep + levels will have more folds, than if you open-shove MP. Probably one more reason should have shoved this.

[suicideking 0]

Plus you're about to have to go through the blinds. Shove.

[spydur86 0]

Looks like no one's been in this thread for awhile but I skimmed through and it was a decent read with a lot of great points brought up. As a former 180 grinder myself I figured I'd bring up a couple very general points for anyone reading. Basically just things that most people know but never hurts to go over.1. Fwiw Corvair, if I were you I would pick one game and focus most of my attention on that. I understand your time constraints (which is why I made the switch from 180s to 18s myself.) But the thing is the 180s and 18s play a lot differently even in the turbo format. It's all poker, and it's all picking the right shove spots mainly, but the fact of the matter is 180s you play for 1st, or top 3 at the very least, where in 18s ICM takes over most of your decisions and the payout jumps aren't nearly as big. Not to mention the structure itself lends to different play given the fact that 18s don't have nearly the same "middle stage play." With that said, I'd shoot for one or the other and focus mainly on that until you're crushing the game and then try your hand at expanding a bit. The fundamentals will help you succeed anywhere but having a bread and butter game is going to make your life a lot easier in the long run.2. As counterintuitive as it seems regs are always going to shove wider than randoms once they hit the sweet spot. Isoing a reg with A9s, or even A2o can be okay in some situations where you KNOW you're ahead of his range (although that becomes a lot less common with A2 and I'm trying to cut a lot of my hero Ax iso's out of my calling range because I'd almost always rather be getting it in first and with FE if I need the chips.) At any rate, random recreational players just don't see/know the value of shipping Q7o from the CO with 6bbs (or what have you) so they're shoves are going to be a LOT more weighted toward big and/or suited aces, pairs (big or small) or just hands that have pounded into their brain as being "good." 3. Probably should've come before point 2 but GET TO KNOW YOUR REGS (which is another reason I'd focus on one game at a time, you get more hands developed and you get to know the regs ins and outs a lot faster.) Seriously, knowing which regs are fine shoving 24s in certain situations as opposed to which regs play tight can make a lot of your decisions almost robotic, thus making multi tabling easier, and for someone with time constraints, more games at one time is just more volume, and volume is key.4. Shove wide when you need to and if you look at your hand and think it's "too wide" it's probably not. Seriously. Also I've noticed a lot of guys advocating shoving their range with 12bbs or less. (And if I read that wrong I apologize but I only skimmed) I'm not going to say they're wrong, a lot of them are extremely reputable players but personally I see more merit in minraising a lot of my range for the following reasons. If you're known as a "minraiser" even under 10bbs, MRing AA or KK utg with 8bbs isn't going to look "suspicious." Shoving AT-AJ with 12bbs probably means you're only getting called by better or a flip at best. I prefer to MR and call off guys I know can 3b light and fold to the nits (obviously this is very read/table dependent) but people's 3 bet range is always going to be wider than their call range. You raise up AJ utg and give them a chance to jam KQ or AT on you thinking they have FE whereas just shoving folds out a lot of their reship range that you're beating. If you get flatted by someone terrible, whatever, out play them postflop. I mean you were going to get it all in preflop anyway, right? Also, it doesn't matter much at the micro levels because most people simply don't pay attention, but if you're minraising your range it helps to blend it. If you're capable of raise/folding, raise/calling, raise/4b shoving, you can get a lot more creative (even if the stacks aren't that deep, there's still room for a little creativity) and keep people on their toes.With all that said, the argument for raising over shoving usually comes down to table dynamics for me. If I'm thinking about opening a hand I know who I'm calling and who I'm folding to before the money even goes into the pot.If any of this is wrong I'm obviously fine with discussion and constructive criticism, I'm here to learn just as much as anyone. Sorry for the TL:DR but I felt like actually offering something to this forum for once. Hope even the smallest chunk of that information can help someone out.

[outsider13 0]

I pretty much agree with points 1-3. Thought I would give my thoughts on #4. Yes, life is grand when you minraise and you isolated by a worse hand, but we still don't win those hands 100% of the time either. Just by nature of seeing showdown more, and also hating a lot of flops when flatted, I would think that unexploitable play would gain more.

[spydur86 0]

I pretty much agree with points 1-3. Thought I would give my thoughts on #4. Yes, life is grand when you minraise and you isolated by a worse hand, but we still don't win those hands 100% of the time either. Just by nature of seeing showdown more, and also hating a lot of flops when flatted, I would think that unexploitable play would gain more.

Yes but if we're not getting "exploited" per se and they're generally getting it in behind, of course we're not going to win 100% but we're still going to make money long term by letting them make mistakes. I understand your point but playing unexploitable also allows them to play perfect poker. "Do I have a hand I can call with? No? Okay I fold." As opposed to "I'm going to shove this sub par hand because I think I have fold equity. Oops I'm behind." I'm definitely in the "let your opponents make the mistakes" camp, and they're going to make a lot more if you hand them the rope. It's probably a stylistic different if money's going in either way though.EDIT: Also, I don't really mind getting flatted by terrible players because if I'm raising preflop and end up out of position I'm going to go n go most of the time anyway. They're folding a lot of flops anyway and if you happen to run into a monster it would've ended up the same as just shoving preflop.