Stars $3 Rebuy 180 Turbo Thread

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Corvair, I think a lot of times you view poker too much from a gambler's perspective. You need to start ignoring that "gut" feeling. If your gut was based on very good reads that you had on the other players I would probably agree with you (it would at least help if your gut told you to make better decisions). You often put your whole stack at risk with no information at all other that what the gambler in you wants to do. Your gut seems to tell you to push w/A9 and AJ. Your one comment about your fallback being an ace is just ridiculous (sorry to be so blunt). You do realize that more often than not you will simply have the weaker ace in most of these situations right? If not, the other guy will probably have a pocket pair and your still getting your money in as a slight to big dog. I don't know about you but I don't see guys call all ins very often w/A8. Go back and read most of your posts on this site. I think you will see a trend. I cetainly have noticed a trend. I know you're trying to get better as we all are, but I seriously think that "gut feeling" play of yours is by far your biggest weakness.

Ohhh, that's no secret there. I am perfectly aware of the above flood gate. I am getting better at shutting the doors on it. 9 months ago when I started playing "seriously" I was making $100 depsoits weekly. Now, I am still playing off of the $100 deposit from July, and have cashed out a few times and made several sports bets with that money as well. Since June I am up ~$400 in .25NL mostly 50bb and some 100bb over about a 11k sample size. Not anything to brag about, and actually bad, but profit is profit. Cash games I am horrible at, but slowly improving, but past few months spending time on tourneys. As far as tourneys I am getting better and learning to control the spew. Most of the time I post bad hands here, but I am capable of making a good decisions from time to time. I may look like an absolute spewtard, but am getting better.As to calling off villains with weaker hands than AJ/A9 etc., in the $3 rebuy 180s when players get short stacked, generally under the 10bbs, you will see some stack off with any paint, and with hand 2a that is what I meant by having an A as a fallback. Now I am understanding why that is a bad thought. The other day I was deep in one, and I had A10 off and I folded it in a similar situation, and there was a respected player here that was railing me at the time and told me that was a bad fold. Difference was POSITION. I am starting to finally grasp that concept. I posted about this about 10 posts back. Problem is that I maybe get to play one a night. Total time I have playing in a week is maybe 20-25 hours over 7 days. So, on a time table, the learning curve is going to take longer. I may post some completly retarded reasoning for things, and you guys have been nice enough to respond and give points to why my reasoning is so idiotic. I do not have any people locally I can discuss strategy with. This is the only place I post, but read and watch videos online. I know how I learn, and it is by trial and error, and having people around to show me where I am going wrong. Generally, once I get a good foundation I can take off, but still builing that foundation. If I could sit down live with 5-6 people from this site and discuss poker over a few round of drinks, I guarantee you that the knowledge I could pick up in that couple of hours would be worth its weight in gold.I swear I am getting better, and my goal for the rest of the year is to get back in the black (pokerstars tourneys) and have a winning ROI. As long as you guys are nice enough to point out my idiotic ways and mentalities, I will continue to post and prove in time that I can become a winning player, not just a dumb-**** spewtard that I may appear to be. Ohh and don't worry about being blunt with me. I would rather hear it like it is and not have it sugar coated. At least give me an explanation so i can understand.

[outsider13 0]

You have to understand that the variance in these are a bitch. Even a good solid player in these will go on 100 buyin downswings easily (Avg buyin of $11 or 12). I really wouldn't be playing them without $1500 at least, although I would be mass tabling and not 1 tabling like yourself. With that being said, you have to be prepared to go A LOT of these without cashing. If you are playing 1 a night, it's not unthinkable for you to go a month without cashing. Its just the nature of turbo 180s. If I were you, I'd play something with a bit better of a structure that is a little less high variance.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

You have to understand that the variance in these are a bitch. Even a good solid player in these will go on 100 buyin downswings easily (Avg buyin of $11 or 12). I really wouldn't be playing them without $1500 at least, although I would be mass tabling and not 1 tabling like yourself. With that being said, you have to be prepared to go A LOT of these without cashing. If you are playing 1 a night, it's not unthinkable for you to go a month without cashing. Its just the nature of turbo 180s. If I were you, I'd play something with a bit better of a structure that is a little less high variance.

I am. I currently also play $6.50 18 man turbos on stars and tilt, and play around with $10 DONs, and some $3 turbos as well. Funny thing on tilt I am posting a +66% ROI on the $6.50 18 man turbos (includes 2 $10 Superturbo 54-man as well that I did not cash in, but included in ROI calculations) over 50 games. Stars...ehh not so much. I have cashed several times in the 180s the past 6weeks-2 months, with 2 2nd place finishes. I am not expecting to go ITM everynight. My expectations is to learn from my mistakes to where that way when I get knocked out I can blame it on variance, not me making a stupid 25BB shove with J10 off. I remember my first big tourney I ran deep in (1/4 mill I think. Posted here somewhere) after about 3 hours, I called a 30BB all in with like KJ or something stupid like that, because I did not know any better. That was a few months ago. I am using the 180's to learn how to properly play stack sizes, positions, put oppenents on hand ranges, etc. Yes, i could practice this at lower levels, but in doing so guys will show up with tons of garbage. In the $3 rebuy, my cash game and small tourneys currently off-set the loss that I take in the 180s.It is the best game I have found for my time and BR. The players are very good to very poor, so it is a nice mix. I am hoping I can work out alot of stupid errors in these, then maybe move up to some bigger (1/4 mill, and other similar MTT, not SNGs) and hopefully run deep in those. It's like playing the Neg-Os. I realistically have no shot at going deep in those, but where else can you play a small tourney with some really good players for only $10? Poker is a fun hobby for me. I do not have to use it for everday life, so at this point if it can be self-sufficient $$$-wise and I can learn and get better, that is a win for me.

[KingJames 11]

I'm too nitty to play rebuys or turbosIn for reading sick 10bb strat tho

[tbrick412 0]

I am. I currently also play $6.50 18 man turbos on stars and tilt, and play around with $10 DONs, and some $3 turbos as well. Funny thing on tilt I am posting a +66% ROI on the $6.50 18 man turbos (includes 2 $10 Superturbo 54-man as well that I did not cash in, but included in ROI calculations) over 50 games. Stars...ehh not so much. I have cashed several times in the 180s the past 6weeks-2 months, with 2 2nd place finishes. I am not expecting to go ITM everynight. My expectations is to learn from my mistakes to where that way when I get knocked out I can blame it on variance, not me making a stupid 25BB shove with J10 off. I remember my first big tourney I ran deep in (1/4 mill I think. Posted here somewhere) after about 3 hours, I called a 30BB all in with like KJ or something stupid like that, because I did not know any better. That was a few months ago. I am using the 180's to learn how to properly play stack sizes, positions, put oppenents on hand ranges, etc. Yes, i could practice this at lower levels, but in doing so guys will show up with tons of garbage. In the $3 rebuy, my cash game and small tourneys currently off-set the loss that I take in the 180s.It is the best game I have found for my time and BR. The players are very good to very poor, so it is a nice mix. I am hoping I can work out alot of stupid errors in these, then maybe move up to some bigger (1/4 mill, and other similar MTT, not SNGs) and hopefully run deep in those. It's like playing the Neg-Os. I realistically have no shot at going deep in those, but where else can you play a small tourney with some really good players for only $10? Poker is a fun hobby for me. I do not have to use it for everday life, so at this point if it can be self-sufficient $$$-wise and I can learn and get better, that is a win for me.

Really shouldnt be so hard on yourself. Keep playing and putting in volume and you will get it. Poker has a sharp learning curve, but it will come eventually.

[Tehtoe 3]

brickahhh dropping the inspiration bombs

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Allright, lets get this thread back on track. Tonight's lesson: STEALINGOK, getting to alot of bubbles in 180s and 90s tonight, so lets discuss this. Generally, when the blinds are 500/1000 and higher, play will get slower. The closer you get to the bubble, the slower things get. If you are sitting at ~20bb, how wide of a range are you opening here? I do not have any good hand examples of for this, but if you are opening from CO, with B, SB and BB all with average stack sizes compared to yours, are you just min-raising here with ATC, broadways, suited connectors, Ax, etc?? At the 500/1000 level, I am assuming you would open steal with maybe broadways, 88+s, AX suited, etc. (PLEASE correct me if my hand ranges are totally off.). If you get one of them to flat, then play hand as you normally would, since you would still be deep enough to fold if you brick the flop. If you do the above, and villains have a VP% of about 20 or lower and they 3-bet you or shove, then I am assuming here you are laying it down unless you have some type of premium hand, because basically at this point you are flipping for stacks, and at about 50th place and ~20bbs or better, you should have AA, KK, QQ, AK suited to flip for stacks here?If villain has a higher VP% of about say 40 or higher, are you still calling his shoves with a range of about A10+, 1010+?OR do you just not put yourself in aflip situation here, which leads me into the next step:BLIND VS BLINDOK. Now you are SB, with antes of 600/1200 with 125 antes. BB has a ~15VP%. What range are you raising with here, and do you ever just flat or always min-raise, 3x etc. I am assuming you are opening wider here, say 40% of your hand range, and if you get any action use above example as calling ranges.Now, you are BB. What are you calling a SB opening minraise with? Ax, broadways, suited connectors? What are you raising shoving with here? Remember, all of these examples we still have a ~20BB stack, with villains stack being similar, with a meh VP.CALLING A LATE POSITION SHOVEI have a good example here:HAND #3aFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t500/t1000 ante t100 - 8 playersMP Hamknight: t32,274 HJ transjetta: t22,225 CO Ghostsuit: t6,400 Button jolmnop: t9,640 SB Hero: t11,040 BB Bitinha1986: t32,115 UTG St3phenHendr: t13,515 UTG+1 cabezon plus: t17,280 Preflop: (t2,300) Hero is SB with (8 players)4 folds, Ghostsuit raises to t3000, jolmnop folds, Hero raises to t10940 and is all-in, Bitinha1986 folds, Ghostsuit calls t3300 and is all-inFlop: (t14,400) (2 players)Turn: (t14,400) (2 players)River: (t14,400) (2 players)Ghostsuit showed , and lost with two pair, Queens and EightsHero showed , and won (14400) with two pair, Aces and EightsHero won t14400Before you guys start screaming "You stupid fu$%^ng jack-ass. You are still calling shoves with any A!!!" Let me explain, then tell me why my thinking is terrible, and not just saying I am terrible (Tehtoe ). Help me understand why this is terrible (Again, Tehtoe ). I am sitting with 10bbs here, so I do not have many orbits left. Villain is opening from CO, and with ~5 effective BBs, he could be opening with a wide range (correct?). His 3x is pointless, because you know he is getting this in no matter what. I decide to make the shove because: a) I have Ax, in which A could be ahead of his CO shove range. He does this from UTG UTG+!, I easy fold this b) I do have BB behind me. I shove, makes him tighten his calling range here, since he is making a 3:1 call here, I am gambling he does not wake up with a monster here, and crush us both to get a 55% chip increase. Basically a loose gamble, but with ~10bbs, do I really have much choise? 2 chairs are still empty at the moment. If they do not fill quick, then I get lose 25% of my stack due to blinds/antes in the next 8 hands. This is my explanation for this hand. Please explain where my thinking is wrong.CLOSE TO BUBBLE STEALING HAND RANGESAgain, here is another example:HAND #3bFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t1500/t3000 ante t300 - 7 playersUTG+1 zetapeta: t8,600 HJ ALABASTERMAN: t39,820 CO Hero: t21,615 Button PussyCat558: t31,551 SB bth247: t21,356 BB zmut: t41,989 UTG lopachok: t34,133 Preflop: (t6,600) Hero is CO with (7 players)2 folds, ALABASTERMAN folds, Hero raises to t21315 and is all-in, 2 folds, zmut calls t18315Flop: (t46,230) (2 players)Turn: (t46,230) (2 players)River: (t46,230) (2 players)Hero showed , and lost with a pair of Deuceszmut showed , and won (46230) with two pair, Threes and Deuceszmut won t46230Here, I got knocked out in 27th place. Tried to be more aggressive, but had not been stealing every orbit. Villains ahead of me have a ~30% VP over about 40 hands. I am sitting with about 5 effective BB. After analyzing this afterwards, not a good idea to give big stack a 2:1 odds here? Also, a little to weak on the hand range. Make this move with Ax, KQ suited, 77+? (again, hand ranges here may not be compatible. Please adjust)Wheew! I think this covers a wide range of stealing here. If I missed any examples, please add, and before calling me terrible, explain why I am terrible. After I grasp this concept, I feel like next stage is getting value, then I should have a good foundation to work with. I am shooting for a 12+ hour session tomorrow (unless wife drags me to some lame halloween party), so I am sure I will be adding a bunch more tomorrow. Thanks again for all help-full responses!!!!!

[SuperJon 175]

Don't have time to read through it all right now, but the A6 hand stands out a bit to me.The reason I think it's a bad shove has a lot to do with one of the things you need to improve on, and that's interpreting what our opponent(s) are doing based on stack size and action.Just make a note to yourself that whenever someone is really short, and they do ANYTHING other than shove or fold, they're going to have a big hand a majority of the time.

[tbrick412 0]

QJ is fine, but the A6 is really bad. he put in half his stack pre, so he's never folding. what does A6 play well against? 56s? you're just never beating anything.

[Tehtoe 3]

lol @ calling me out. You posted something that is quite obviously incorrect (playing with your gut) and I told you it was terrible. I've helped out on so many hands of yours, but I'm not sure how you would want me to elaborate on the fact that playing by gut feelings is terrible...does that really need an explanation?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

lol @ calling me out. You posted something that is quite obviously incorrect (playing with your gut) and I told you it was terrible. I've helped out on so many hands of yours, but I'm not sure how you would want me to elaborate on the fact that playing by gut feelings is terrible...does that really need an explanation?

No, No, I wasn't doing it to be an ass! I was doing it more as fun. I've moved on from the "gut" conversation, and see your point. I just know that "terrible" is one of your favorite words, and figured I was going to get called that here. I just know that your posts can be really short as far as "correct" or "incorrect", just hoping you could elaborate a tad bit more, that is all. Sorry if it came across in a bad way or if I was out of line. I have a lot of respect for you, and I need all the help I can get. Plus, it is difficult to really express things because I am a long winded person and it is hard for me to condense it in a few sentences. Cool??

[CorvairShaggy 5]

OK So, basically anything lower than A10 just throw it away in 95% situations. I posted the reasoning for doing this with the HH, but still putting too much value on it. I see what SuperJon is saying. I knew he was getting it in, but when you are that short, why bother?? Just put it in. I guess I need to make a mental note and remember if guys are that short and do that move they will show up with something better than KQ off. Now, If he just open-shoves that, do you still fold with an A with those stack sizes?? If he is a little shorter, and I am a little larger stack (say 2:1 or better), and he makes the half-stack move, I assume you still fold?? And if he open shoves giving you 2:1??

[riverrat 0]

Don't have time to read through it all right now, but the A6 hand stands out a bit to me.The reason I think it's a bad shove has a lot to do with one of the things you need to improve on, and that's interpreting what our opponent(s) are doing based on stack size and action.Just make a note to yourself that whenever someone is really short, and they do ANYTHING other than shove or fold, they're going to have a big hand a majority of the time.

Corvair, you REALLY need to work on this. A short stack leading out w/half his stack is just screaming that he has a monster (especially at these levels). This goes right back to the same thing w/the A9 but this is much worse. However, first things first, you really need to get away from falling in love with Ax. I will take notes on guys that play those weak aces and hope that I run into them on a regular basis. You have been playing a while now and should know better. Personally, I almost always fold my weak aces as they tend to only get you in trouble. You need to just start there and then definitely listen to suprjon's advice. Unless the short stack is really good and thinking on a 2nd level, he never has a weak hand here.

[rrumsey 0]

Hand 3a, fold pre.3b, ez shove and lol at villain calling with that crap

[SuperJon 175]

OK So, basically anything lower than A10 just throw it away in 95% situations. I posted the reasoning for doing this with the HH, but still putting too much value on it. I see what SuperJon is saying. I knew he was getting it in, but when you are that short, why bother?? Just put it in. I guess I need to make a mental note and remember if guys are that short and do that move they will show up with something better than KQ off. Now, If he just open-shoves that, do you still fold with an A with those stack sizes?? If he is a little shorter, and I am a little larger stack (say 2:1 or better), and he makes the half-stack move, I assume you still fold?? And if he open shoves giving you 2:1??

I still fold the A6 if the CO open shoves.

[Tehtoe 3]

A6 is v close if he jams, bottom of Axo optimal calling range for that spot is A7o tho.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

HAND 4Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t400/t800 ante t75 - 7 playersUTG+1 master_yeeee: t21,507 HJ SENORSEXY: t6,043 CO pedaeira: t11,974 Button elburg666: t23,041 SB CVS90: t7,920 BB j0hndayt0n: t16,909 UTG Hero: t7,130 Preflop: (t1,725) Hero is UTG with (7 players)Hero raises to t2400, master_yeeee folds, SENORSEXY folds, pedaeira folds, 3 foldsHero collected t2525--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------OK. I took what you guys were saying and reversed it with this hand. Even though I did not get any action, with most of these stack sizes at the table, was this the right move? Generally I would assume you would open shove this because of hand strength and being under 10bbs. Tried to induce, but couldn't get any takers.Played for 6 hours straight, 3-4 tables mostly $6.50 18 man, with some $3r. Really nothing interesting. Alot of coolers today though. Worked on folding Ax garbage hands, and played with the above example with different hands I would have open-shoved with in early position. Either got folds, or over-shoves with hands V's would have called my shove with anyway. But at least I cut out alot of crap today.

[rrumsey 0]

hand 4 i like to just bet over min to try and induce a 10ish BB stack to think they have FE over the top of us, then snap there face off. wwhatatata we are under 10 BB, wow shove preif we were deeper we could induce. under 10 BB jam that hand. every time.

[SuperJon 175]

HAND 4Feral Cow Poker Hand ConverterPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t400/t800 ante t75 - 7 playersUTG+1 master_yeeee: t21,507 HJ SENORSEXY: t6,043 CO pedaeira: t11,974 Button elburg666: t23,041 SB CVS90: t7,920 BB j0hndayt0n: t16,909 UTG Hero: t7,130 Preflop: (t1,725) Hero is UTG with (7 players)Hero raises to t2400, master_yeeee folds, SENORSEXY folds, pedaeira folds, 3 foldsHero collected t2525--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ship it pre for sure.The problem with playing it this way (for a lot of beginners) is that there's a big difference in how you feel afterwards when you win and when you lose.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

??? OK, I am good an confused now. The reason this is bad is because I am too short, and to the other good players at the table they will know I have something big. The bad players on the other hand, may shove over and then I can call. I am getting this in no matter what, but if I open-shove this from UTG, doesn't that show strength as well?I guess it is a case of lesser of two strengths. Shove looks weaker than min-raising under 10BB, but what you guys are saying is that if I was 12bbs or higher, min-raising with antes or 2x-3x without antes would be a good induce opening from UTG, or I guess any other opening position, which is just standard play.

[SuperJon 175]

??? OK, I am good an confused now. The reason this is bad is because I am too short, and to the other good players at the table they will know I have something big. The bad players on the other hand, may shove over and then I can call. I am getting this in no matter what, but if I open-shove this from UTG, doesn't that show strength as well?I guess it is a case of lesser of two strengths. Shove looks weaker than min-raising under 10BB, but what you guys are saying is that if I was 12bbs or higher, min-raising with antes or 2x-3x without antes would be a good induce opening from UTG, or I guess any other opening position, which is just standard play.

12bbs w/antes, I still shove pre. Without antes, just raising might be okay in some spots. Probably around 15bbs is where I would make a standard raise.The reason we shove with AK instead of raising once we're short, is so we can see all 5 cards, and it makes the hand much easier to play.

[riverrat 0]

??? OK, I am good an confused now. The reason this is bad is because I am too short, and to the other good players at the table they will know I have something big. The bad players on the other hand, may shove over and then I can call. I am getting this in no matter what, but if I open-shove this from UTG, doesn't that show strength as well?I guess it is a case of lesser of two strengths. Shove looks weaker than min-raising under 10BB, but what you guys are saying is that if I was 12bbs or higher, min-raising with antes or 2x-3x without antes would be a good induce opening from UTG, or I guess any other opening position, which is just standard play.

See Tehtoe's advice above. He is telling you that the ranges get bigger when a short stack shoves (and I think this is regardless of position for the most part) as opposed to raising for half of his stack. That is precisely why I would shove w/AK (on top of the fact that you're so short stacked). My hope would be that they put me on a weak ace and call with a hand like A9 or A10 (I assume that Tehtoe was serious when he said A7 was around the bottom end of his calling range in that situation if the shorty shoves). EVEN WEAK PLAYERS will usually recognize you are representing a ton of strength and that you probably want action when you min raise here. IMHO your stack size and bet is why you are going to appear strong more than your position in the hand. If you're on the button and you see the UTG lead out for half of his very short stack isn't he going to appear even stronger than if he shoves? The reverse may be true as well but it can be dicey. Occasionally I will bet out w/half my stack as a bluff w/something like A5os when I am short stacked. Obviously you're committed so you really don't want a reraise, but if I think the players at the table know what they are doing I may do it rather than shoving with that hand. In both instances though my goal would be to mislead my opponents. No matter what the flop is you're getting it all in in either situation.

[tbrick412 0]

huad

[rrumsey 0]

how they been going?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

how they been going?

No time Work has picked up and side jobs have too, so I am trying to squeeze the Neg-O in on Wednesday, and this weekend is completly booked, so it will be next week before I can even think about trying to do anything. Nice thing is life roll goes up, and both poker accounts keep money in them