Who Knows More About Religion?

[brvheart 1,753]

I mean Catholicism encompasses more Christians than any other sect, correct? Kinda hard to argue Catholicism is wildly different from Christianity.See, it's confusing and that is why blanket statements about "Christianity" are often wrong. Each little sect has its own rules. I mean I hear those unitarians let women be priests. They are all going to the lake of fire (a nice image of God's mercy if there ever was one).

It would be better for your "rep" if you avoided this topic completely.

[CaneBrain 95]

It would be better for your "rep" if you avoided this topic completely.

Come on, I love coming onto a poker forum every day and talking with you jack-asses. I am obviously not concerned with my rep.Was I wrong that there are more Catholics than Protestants?

[SBriand 4]

It would be better for your "rep" if you avoided this topic completely.

Why? I see nothing that he said that damages his rep. Or do you mean his rep among God fearing people? Meh, who cares about that.

[CaneBrain 95]

Why? I see nothing that he said that damages his rep. Or do you mean his rep among God fearing people? Meh, who cares about that.

<-------------Steve approvedBy the way, you and my wife would have a dandy time comparing stories about poor people and minorities. I showed her one of your older rants the other day and she was like 'meh, that IS nothing.'

[Balloon guy 158]

Come on, I love coming onto a poker forum every day and talking with you jack-asses. I am obviously not concerned with my rep.Was I wrong that there are more Catholics than Protestants?

I don't know and don't care enough to check, but I am a protestant, and all my posts will be from that perspective.Except the ones where I mock you guys, those are from my fat old white guy perspective.

[Balloon guy 158]

Let me get this straight.... You are saying that smart actually means: having less knowledge and critical thinking skills than others but being more convinced of religious doctrines? While we're redefining things, why not just agree that "atheists" should refer to those people who believe in god?

Step back for a second and give that there is a God and you are processing the data incorrectly.Would you still argue that your critical thinking skills are quite so praise worthy?The Bible does this for my side, Paul wrote that if there was no resurrection from the dead, than we of all people are the most pathetic.So I have no problem looking at the possibility that I am wrong and acknowledging that I my whole life will have been a waste.But the good thing is that I won't have to pay for being wrong about Christianity<-----freerolling

[vbnautilus 48]

Step back for a second and give that there is a God and you are processing the data incorrectly.Would you still argue that your critical thinking skills are quite so praise worthy?

Yes. The alternative is that my critical thinking skills work really well in all arenas except when it comes to this one issue. That was my whole point really: from the perspective of god being real, those who are right about this one issue are more likely to be wrong on others, and to have lower IQs. Does that make any sense?

The Bible does this for my side, Paul wrote that if there was no resurrection from the dead, than we of all people are the most pathetic.

He said it, not me!

So I have no problem looking at the possibility that I am wrong and acknowledging that I my whole life will have been a waste.But the good thing is that I won't have to pay for being wrong about Christianity<-----freerolling

You are paying for being wrong about christianity.Think about it: is it really possible that there is no cost to being wrong about something like this?

[Balloon guy 158]

Yes. The alternative is that my critical thinking skills work really well in all arenas except when it comes to this one issue. That was my whole point really: from the perspective of god being real, those who are right about this one issue are more likely to be wrong on others, and to have lower IQs. Does that make any sense?

Do you know anyone in your office that isn't a raving liberal tree hugging pot smoker?How about anyone who thinks that Michel Vick doesn't run the ball enough?Or that Studdard never should have beat Aiken?Anyone vote for McCain instead of Obama?There are lots of ways for people to differ with another's views without it being the one thing that means all their other choices are wrong.You are arguing that you are 100% right about the entire understanding of the entire metaphysical world. And anyone who disagrees is not thinking correct.I would say that this is a common trait of atheist, they are completely closed to any world view but their own, and they use an opinion as their proof.

He said it, not me!

Thanks for admitting that the Bible is accurate when quoting Paul from the 1st century AD.Now how do you deal with the rest of what Paul said?

You are paying for being wrong about christianity.Think about it: is it really possible that there is no cost to being wrong about something like this?

Let's see, I am happy, I treat others better, I give my money to those in need, and I obey the government and pay my taxes.And when I die, the people who love me will all feel sad, but with that sadness will be the belief that I am living forever in Heaven. So their grief is tempered with hope.Yea, I can see why you would want to have my religion removed from society.

[vbnautilus 48]

There are lots of ways for people to differ with another's views without it being the one thing that means all their other choices are wrong.

Wait a minute, are you saying that the religious people were actually answering more correctly than the atheists about the bible, we just have the answers backwards?

You are arguing that you are 100% right about the entire understanding of the entire metaphysical world. And anyone who disagrees is not thinking correct.

I thought we were speaking hypothetically about the consequences of being right or wrong about metaphysical issues. I did not realize the fact that religious people have less factual knowledge and lower IQs was in dispute, especially when it came to the the actual religious knowledge poll that brought us to this point.

Let's see, I am happy, I treat others better, I give my money to those in need, and I obey the government and pay my taxes.And when I die, the people who love me will all feel sad, but with that sadness will be the belief that I am living forever in Heaven. So their grief is tempered with hope.Yea, I can see why you would want to have my religion removed from society.

But we are considering the hypothetical that you are wrong, so the living in heaven part is not happening. I'm not saying you haven't done anything good, or that your net impact on the world hasn't been positive. I'm asking you to think about what negative effects there would be from you being wrong about this very important issue.

[Balloon guy 158]

Wait a minute, are you saying that the religious people were actually answering more correctly than the atheists about the bible, we just have the answers backwards?

You know how often the atheist in this forum think they are right about that Bible and aren't? Like 99%

I thought we were speaking hypothetically about the consequences of being right or wrong about metaphysical issues.

Well then you were wrong more than once with the same arguments. Congratulations, you get an A for efficiency,

I did not realize the fact that religious people have less factual knowledge and lower IQs was in dispute, especially when it came to the the actual religious knowledge poll that brought us to this point.

Anyone who places value on IQ tests deserves to be wrong about what they mean. Knowing that it was Elisha and not Eliza that said something doesn't make you know more about the Bible in anyway except useless knowledge. Pretending that Christians don't know the Bible as well as atheist because an atheist knows the order of the OT books and then planting a flag of triumph on this result isn't helping you argue about your critical reasoning skills very much.

But we are considering the hypothetical that you are wrong, so the living in heaven part is not happening. I'm not saying you haven't done anything good, or that your net impact on the world hasn't been positive. I'm asking you to think about what negative effects there would be from you being wrong about this very important issue.

When I die..I cease to exist, and escape any results of my being wrong.Exactly the same results will happen to me if I die believing that Darwin wasn't a fool who based his theory on bad science.So if I die and there is no God... I gain and lose the exact same thing.Now let's ask what negative effects there would be for you about this very important issue?

[vbnautilus 48]

You know how often the atheist in this forum think they are right about that Bible and aren't? Like 99%

Ok, then which is the first book of the bible?

Anyone who places value on IQ tests deserves to be wrong about what they mean. Knowing that it was Elisha and not Eliza that said something doesn't make you know more about the Bible in anyway except useless knowledge. Pretending that Christians don't know the Bible as well as atheist because an atheist knows the order of the OT books and then planting a flag of triumph on this result isn't helping you argue about your critical reasoning skills very much.

They didn't ask obscure stuff about what Elisha or Eliza said. This was basic knowledge-type stuff that the christians didn't know. They don't know who the vice-president is. The christians all act like they are in a segment of Jay-walking. Why do you think they are so stupid? I know my answer: lacking critical thinking skills is a prerequisite for accepting absurd religious doctrines. What's yours?

When I die..I cease to exist, and escape any results of my being wrong.Exactly the same results will happen to me if I die believing that Darwin wasn't a fool who based his theory on bad science.So if I die and there is no God... I gain and lose the exact same thing.

1. What will you have lost during your life though? 2. How will your effect on the world be negative?

Now let's ask what negative effects there would be for you about this very important issue?

That's obvious though, religious people tell us that all the time. I burn in hell, and have helped others to do so.

[SBriand 4]

Let's see, I am happy, I treat others better, I give my money to those in need, and I obey the government and pay my taxes.And when I die, the people who love me will all feel sad, but with that sadness will be the belief that I am living forever in Heaven. So their grief is tempered with hope.Yea, I can see why you would want to have my religion removed from society.

What does that actually have to do with Religion?I am happy (believe it or not sickies!), I generally treat most people nicely, I give to charity and all the bums outside the Tigers games, I obey the government (which has nothing to do with this conversation) and I pay my taxes (which also has nothing to do with this conversation).And when I die, the people who love me will feel sad but will also celebrate my life and either hope or believe I am in a better place.But I am not religious. Neither is my wife, or most of my family for the most part. You can still do good things in life without going to church once a week or reading the bible. You can still hope or believe that after a loved one's death they might be in a better place. Usually people think/hope/believe that to help their grieving though. So yeah, religion is not necessarily needed. But I am not asking for it to be removed. Go ahead, if it helps lead certain people away from being bad then go for it. If it makes you happy, go for it. But I am not interested so leave me alone.

[Balloon guy 158]

What does that actually have to do with Religion?I am happy (believe it or not sickies!), I generally treat most people nicely, I give to charity and all the bums outside the Tigers games, I obey the government (which has nothing to do with this conversation) and I pay my taxes (which also has nothing to do with this conversation).And when I die, the people who love me will feel sad but will also celebrate my life and either hope or believe I am in a better place.But I am not religious. Neither is my wife, or most of my family for the most part. You can still do good things in life without going to church once a week or reading the bible. You can still hope or believe that after a loved one's death they might be in a better place. Usually people think/hope/believe that to help their grieving though. So yeah, religion is not necessarily needed. But I am not asking for it to be removed. Go ahead, if it helps lead certain people away from being bad then go for it. If it makes you happy, go for it. But I am not interested so leave me alone.

Only responding to vb directly saying to me:

You are paying for being wrong about Christianity.Think about it: is it really possible that there is no cost to being wrong about something like this?

I agree that you can be a non-Christian and be a very good person, and you can be a Christian and be a really bad person.The issue I would argue is that a person who is a Christian will be better than that exact same person would be before he accepts Christ.That and atheist are a short step away from being communist.Those two things.

[Balloon guy 158]

Ok, then which is the first book of the bible?

If you only have the NT you would be fine.

They didn't ask obscure stuff about what Elisha or Eliza said. This was basic knowledge-type stuff that the christians didn't know. They don't know who the vice-president is.

What is basic knowledge about US government? That the house has x number of members? or that running on a 'change social security' ticket will never work?

The christians all act like they are in a segment of Jay-walking. Why do you think they are so stupid?

A lot of us are?Being stupid does not in anyway lend credibility to anything being true or false. If it did, then all democrats would be idiooo....oh now I see.I change my mind, you are right.

I know my answer: lacking critical thinking skills is a prerequisite for accepting absurd religious doctrines. What's yours?

Which critical thinking skill gives you better memory for recalling dry facts?Because that's all this poll was.

1. What will you have lost during your life though?

Well, I'm out a bit of cash...and I probably missed a few golf rounds on Sunday morning. Oh and I lost my being lost in the world, and being suicidal. And I lost being shy around women. Those things I guess.

2. How will your effect on the world be negative?

hmm, not killing myself resulted in me smoking more cigars, which causes the hole in the ozone, which brings us closer to the future where melanoma concentration in the skin is the most important trait for survival, meaning the end of white man's dominance.Is that was this is all about for you? Losing your racial superiority?

That's obvious though, religious people tell us that all the time. I burn in hell, and have helped others to do so.

So which of us is really risking losing anything at all? You or me?

[vbnautilus 48]

A lot of us are?

But the data show that more christians are than non-christians. Why is that?

Being stupid does not in anyway lend credibility to anything being true or false.

That's stupid.

Which critical thinking skill gives you better memory for recalling dry facts?Because that's all this poll was.

I would tell you, but you'll just forget right away.

Well, I'm out a bit of cash...and I probably missed a few golf rounds on Sunday morning. Oh and I lost my being lost in the world, and being suicidal. And I lost being shy around women. Those things I guess.

Wait since when does being a christian make you a ladies man? If it did, what a waste that would be: you are now the most attractive man on the planet to women, but you can't have any of them. ( OK, maybe just one. )

hmm, not killing myself resulted in me smoking more cigars, which causes the hole in the ozone, which brings us closer to the future where melanoma concentration in the skin is the most important trait for survival, meaning the end of white man's dominance.Is that was this is all about for you? Losing your racial superiority?

Was I supposed to kill myself for not being christian? Goddammit I have to stop skimming over the minutes at the weekly atheist meetings.

[Balloon guy 158]

But the data show that more christians are than non-christians. Why is that?

The data shows that the memory of facts of Christians isn't equal to non-Christians.I believe it is because we have enough to think about knowing that we are so right all the time

That's stupid.

Your stupid

I would tell you, but you'll just forget right away.

Forget what?

Wait since when does being a christian make you a ladies man? If it did, what a waste that would be: you are now the most attractive man on the planet to women, but you can't have any of them. ( OK, maybe just one. )

I've gotten used to it.

Was I supposed to kill myself for not being christian? Goddammit I have to stop skimming over the minutes at the weekly atheist meetings.

Probably got lost in all the clutter of your memory made easy program.

[BaseJester 1]

Which critical thinking skill gives you better memory for recalling dry facts?Because that's all this poll was.

Do you think it's possible to make a test that measures critical thinking skill? If so, what do you think would be a good question?

[Balloon guy 158]

Do you think it's possible to make a test that measures critical thinking skill? If so, what do you think would be a good question?

Q. Why is vb always wrong?A. Because he don't think straight!I am not making any declarative statement about tests ( other than IQ tests as a whole being the best poor method we have to test intelligence ) I am mostly saying that this test isn't saying what you guys want to pretend it says.It isn't saying that Christians are stupid, and if you're not stupid then you won't be a Christian.All I need is one intelligent person who is a Christian and that entire argument is destroyed, and I have me.Which is like twice the needed level of smart to meet any requirements to disprove the dumbness of this studyAnd the fact that so many people are trying their hardest to make this poll come out this way, on the basis of a limited number of questions, many of which are arguably irrelevant, just shows you this fact.They asked non-mormons, mormon questions...who does that?

[Balloon guy 158]

Do we really want these 'facts' to be the basis for an argument that atheist aren't ignorant?I for one say no.Jonathan Edwards participated in the great awakening?Is that the one in England with Spurgeon? Or the one in America with Dwight Moody?Because it was largely Spurgeon who influenced Moody, although many argue that they influenced each other.Oh sorry, you atheist didn't know this? Well then I guess we can conclude that atheist are lacking in critical reasoning skills.I guess your methodology isn't quite so clear cut.But thank you for reminding me why Spurgeon is the man. Not only did he write some of the best things in the last century, he also gave me justification to smoke cigars.

[BaseJester 1]

Well then I guess we can conclude that atheist are lacking in critical reasoning skills.

Did anybody claim these questions tested critical reasoning skills? I think you're attacking a strawman.

[Balloon guy 158]

Let me get this straight.... You are saying that smart actually means: having less knowledge and critical thinking skills than others but being more convinced of religious doctrines?

Yes. The alternative is that my critical thinking skills work really well in all arenas except when it comes to this one issue. That was my whole point really: from the perspective of god being real, those who are right about this one issue are more likely to be wrong on others, and to have lower IQs. Does that make any sense?

I know my answer: lacking critical thinking skills is a prerequisite for accepting absurd religious doctrines. What's yours?

Did anybody claim these questions tested critical reasoning skills? I think you're attacking a strawman.

Well we agree that bringing in critical reasoning skills is a strawman

[BaseJester 1]

Well we agree that bringing in critical reasoning skills is a strawman

I stand corrected.

[vbnautilus 48]

I stand corrected.

Not really. I wasn't referring to this test specifically, but rather the body of evidence which shows that IQ correlates negatively with religiosity. What's new about these data is that religious people do not have comparable levels of knowledge about their own religion. I would have thought that even though they are dumber on average, they would at least have this domain covered.

[vbnautilus 48]

And the fact that so many people are trying their hardest to make this poll come out this way, on the basis of a limited number of questions, many of which are arguably irrelevant, just shows you this fact.

The Pew Foundation, who did this research, was started by christian republicans.

[BaseJester 1]

Not really. I wasn't referring to this test specifically, but rather the body of evidence which shows that IQ correlates negatively with religiosity. What's new about these data is that religious people do not have comparable levels of knowledge about their own religion. I would have thought that even though they are dumber on average, they would at least have this domain covered.

I was ready to explain to BG that that's what you were doing, but I re-read the thread and I had to admit that it looked like you were arguing that the poll demonstrated a lack of critical thinking skills in religious people in this post.

They didn't ask obscure stuff about what Elisha or Eliza said. This was basic knowledge-type stuff that the christians didn't know. They don't know who the vice-president is. The christians all act like they are in a segment of Jay-walking. Why do you think they are so stupid? I know my answer: lacking critical thinking skills is a prerequisite for accepting absurd religious doctrines. What's yours?

On the other hand, while the distinction between knowledge and critical thinking is real, they aren't totally unrelated, either. People who are unaware of a particular claim from a religion haven't thought critically about that claim.