Who Knows More About Religion?

[Balloon guy 158]

The Pew Foundation, who did this research, was started by christian republicans.

So are most of the things you parasites steal use.

[Balloon guy 158]

I was ready to explain to BG that that's what you were doing, but I re-read the thread and I had to admit that it looked like you were arguing that the poll demonstrated a lack of critical thinking skills in religious people in this post.

Which is how I read it as well.It was a large leap to go from memory skills of static facts to the ability to reason.

On the other hand, while the distinction between knowledge and critical thinking is real, they aren't totally unrelated, either. People who are unaware of a particular claim from a religion haven't thought critically about that claim.

Or haven't read it.Did you know that Mormons teach that Joseph Smith used a 'seer' stone that he placed on his head that allowed him to translate the book of mormon from Egyptian to English?What about you not knowing that in any way relates to your ability to use critical reasoning skills.

[BaseJester 1]

Did you know that Mormons teach that Joseph Smith used a 'seer' stone that he placed on his head that allowed him to translate the book of mormon from Egyptian to English?

I didn't remember that is was supposed to be Egyptian. I do know that Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Mormon but didn't provide the plates in their original form outside of his inner circle.

What about you not knowing that in any way relates to your ability to use critical reasoning skills.

It's an input to critical reasoning. We can now use our critical reasoning and determine that this sounds like bullshit.I'm not saying anything profound here; I suspect you're just disagreeing with me by reflex.

[Balloon guy 158]

I didn't remember that is was supposed to be Egyptian. I do know that Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Mormon but didn't provide the plates in their original form outside of his inner circle.

The small little glimpse at the golden tablets revealed an Egyptian book of the dead, so they shut the golden tablets up in their vaults and now only the prophets gets to look.

It's an input to critical reasoning. We can now use our critical reasoning and determine that this sounds like bullshit.I'm not saying anything profound here; I suspect you're just disagreeing with me by reflex.

We were agreeing that vb was wrong a couple posts ago, but you then said:

On the other hand, while the distinction between knowledge and critical thinking is real, they aren't totally unrelated, either. People who are unaware of a particular claim from a religion haven't thought critically about that claim.

Which I was confused about, because it doesn't really say anything, but since you used the phrase 'on the other hand' it appears that this was your attempt at mitigating the damage to logic that vb had committed.I was just trying to keep vb's failure pure and now allow you to dilute it.

[vbnautilus 48]

Memory recall is related to what cognitive psychologists call "depth of processing". The more deeply information is processed, the more likely it is to be remembered. It's unlikely that christians who got the questions wrong were never exposed to the answers. They probably didn't process the information on a level sufficient for recall.

[SweetDee 0]

Let me get this straight.... You are saying that smart actually means: having less knowledge and critical thinking skills than others but being more convinced of religious doctrines? While we're redefining things, why not just agree that "atheists" should refer to those people who believe in god?

Sure, coming at it from Gods perspective. All the "knowledge" in the universe gets you a big fail if you don't get this one part correct. You could be literally the smartest dead man ever and God would judge you to be a complete dolt.The fastest, most expensive, sleek, cherry car in the world doesn't go anywhere if you don't believe the ignition will start it. Even for the genius that built it, he must complete this critical step to enjoy the bounties of what he created. Now, we could argue said genius is still a genius even though he does not believe in the almighty power of the ignition, I mean look at everything he has accomplished? We can't take that away, can we? No. However, I think we can also make the statement that he is pretty dumb for having this one blind spot. Honestly the fact that many "religious" folks aren't well read in other religions doesn't surprise me at all. I imagine I could probably hold my own about a good many "christian" sects, but I'm not really normal when it comes to this stuff, don't really follow anything in particular, just like to read about things, so when I get bored sometimes you might find me on the Barton Stone wikepedia page or Alexander Campbell and I can spend a few hours just reading the different things that you can connect to just from them. So, I end up knowing obscure things that others may not, but, that's not what faith is about, faith in my mind is about what speaks to you and helps you change your life to be more Christ-like. Knowledge of other religions has nothing to do with that, if Lacrosse spoke to you and you were a kick ass Lacrosse player would you expect people to look down on you because you could not answer a a few questions about Baseballl? Or, would you find it a bit offensive that others would not just recognize the mastery of Lacrosse?As far as the lack of knowledge of say, who the Vice President is this also does not surprise me all that much, most of the truly religious people I have ever known didn't really care about that kind of thing, they just lived each day for God, whatever that means to them, and truthfully does knowing who the Vice President is make your day any better or smoother? Does it get you a job? I think at best it makes you more aware or in tune to current events, to say that it makes you any more intelligent I think is stretching it. For people who sing songs like "This World is not my Home" that kind of intelligent is largely useless, they use the mind for other things. Or, they pretend to, but that's a whole other conversation.

[SweetDee 0]

Memory recall is related to what cognitive psychologists call "depth of processing". The more deeply information is processed, the more likely it is to be remembered. It's unlikely that christians who got the questions wrong were never exposed to the answers. They probably didn't process the information on a level sufficient for recall.

Another way of saying that is they just don't give a shit.

[vbnautilus 48]

Sure, coming at it from Gods perspective. All the "knowledge" in the universe gets you a big fail if you don't get this one part correct. You could be literally the smartest dead man ever and God would judge you to be a complete dolt.

Yeah so you are agreeing with me that the christian god wants people to be stupid.

The fastest, most expensive, sleek, cherry car in the world doesn't go anywhere if you don't believe the ignition will start it.

No, the function of the ignition is unrelated to your belief in its function.

Even for the genius that built it, he must complete this critical step to enjoy the bounties of what he created. Now, we could argue said genius is still a genius even though he does not believe in the almighty power of the ignition, I mean look at everything he has accomplished? We can't take that away, can we? No. However, I think we can also make the statement that he is pretty dumb for having this one blind spot.

That would be different than what you are saying, which is that the people who know nothing about the world are smart because they know one particular thing. That's not what smart means.

Honestly the fact that many "religious" folks aren't well read in other religions doesn't surprise me at all.

They don't know about their own religion. Atheists answered more questions correct about christianity than the christians did. They didn't know that the first book of the bible was Genesis, for instance. We are not talking about specific, sect-related details.

As far as the lack of knowledge of say, who the Vice President is this also does not surprise me all that much, most of the truly religious people I have ever known didn't really care about that kind of thing, they just lived each day for God, whatever that means to them, and truthfully does knowing who the Vice President is make your day any better or smoother? Does it get you a job? I think at best it makes you more aware or in tune to current events, to say that it makes you any more intelligent I think is stretching it. For people who sing songs like "This World is not my Home" that kind of intelligent is largely useless, they use the mind for other things. Or, they pretend to, but that's a whole other conversation.

Why do they have lower IQs? This isn't just about being non-political. You are saying that the only kind of intelligence they possess is the one that causes them to believe in god. That's a severe twisting of what intelligence is in order to avoid the conclusion that religious people are stupider. Let's say I found that Nazis were lower IQ and had less general knowledge than other people. Couldn't they say: oh, we are smart all right, because we understand the most important thing about the universe, that white people are the best. We don't need to waste our mental power on anything else. It's the rest of you who are stupid, wasting your time with things like memory, logic, math, and knowledge.

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

No, the function of the ignition is unrelated to your belief in its function.

Ignitions have feelings too!

[Balloon guy 158]

Memory recall is related to what cognitive psychologists call "depth of processing". The more deeply information is processed, the more likely it is to be remembered. It's unlikely that christians who got the questions wrong were never exposed to the answers. They probably didn't process the information on a level sufficient for recall.

I'm reminded of a story of an old lady who was confronted by a major douche atheist.He began berating her with questions of semantics and the history of the Nicene Council.She was flustered and unable to answer his questions.He commented: "You don't know what you believe do you?"She answered: "I may not know what I believe in, but I do know Who I believe in"But this still all returns to the reality that most major colleges today teach an evolution / no God perspective ( because let's face it, atheist can't do anything but teach ) so the more 'educated' the more likely you are to be indoctrinated in a secular world view.So the fact that these two things go together is not because they go hand in hand intellectually. It's because they go hand in hand relationally.I'm sure that when you atheist build a college that you will be equally allowing for a different worldview to usurp the college with minority ideas...

[brvheart 1,752]

Come on, I love coming onto a poker forum every day and talking with you jack-asses. I am obviously not concerned with my rep.Was I wrong that there are more Catholics than Protestants?

Anytime SJ posts in the religion or politics section it's because he has seen a heinous error and/or lie.(Or making a HILARIOUS joke) So if SJ responds to your particular post, it's best if you just run. (I fully expect a response to this, SJ)

Why? I see nothing that he said that damages his rep. Or do you mean his rep among God fearing people? Meh, who cares about that.

I just mean his general lack of understand in the basic workings of the Christian religion. SJ wasn't totally spot on, but he didn't look stupid.

Did you know that Mormons teach that Joseph Smith used a 'seer' stone that he placed on his head that allowed him to translate the book of mormon from Egyptian to English?What about you not knowing that in any way relates to your ability to use critical reasoning skills.

I didn't remember that is was supposed to be Egyptian. I do know that Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Mormon but didn't provide the plates in their original form outside of his inner circle.It's an input to critical reasoning. We can now use our critical reasoning and determine that this sounds like bullshit.I'm not saying anything profound here; I suspect you're just disagreeing with me by reflex.

The small little glimpse at the golden tablets revealed an Egyptian book of the dead, so they shut the golden tablets up in their vaults and now only the prophets gets to look.

You guys need to study up on your Mormonism.Smith didn't put the seer stone on his head, he put it in a hat.Also, no one else EVER saw the plates. Smith wouldn't let anyone see them. At one point he claimed that they were on the table, covered by a cloth and he let some people touch them through the cloth. His wife (one of 34) claimed that the 'gold' made a metallic "chink" when tapped with a fingernail.One time a mob was coming to his house to force him to show them the plates, but he grabbed them out of a drawer and ran 4 miles with them to some other city. The Mormon church didn't realize until very recently that this may have been a problem, since the plates were 'made of gold' and would have weighed more than 200 pounds, so now they claim that the plates must have been a gold alloy.The three 'witnesses' only saw 'visions' of the plates after spending days praying in the woods.The Mormons don't have the plates in their possession. They were 'taken back to heaven'.

[CaneBrain 95]

I'm reminded of a story of an old lady who was confronted by a major douche atheist.He began berating her with questions of semantics and the history of the Nicene Council.She was flustered and unable to answer his questions.He commented: "You don't know what you believe do you?"She answered: "I may not know what I believe in, but I do know Who I believe in"

Who = Rush Limbaugh?Brvheart, don't ruin Skeleton Jelly for everyone.

[brvheart 1,752]

Brvheart, don't ruin Skeleton Jelly for everyone.

Umm, I figured it was obvious. My bad.

[SBriand 4]

I just mean his general lack of understand in the basic workings of the Christian religion. SJ wasn't totally spot on, but he didn't look stupid.

You lack of understand in the English is upset to me.

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

Umm, I figured it was obvious. My bad.

It probably is. I don't care that much, but I do prefer it isn't outright said.Anyway, I think I normally post in here when there's a minor quibble, not a heinous error.

[vbnautilus 48]

But this still all returns to the reality that most major colleges today teach an evolution / no God perspective ( because let's face it, atheist can't do anything but teach ) so the more 'educated' the more likely you are to be indoctrinated in a secular world view.So the fact that these two things go together is not because they go hand in hand intellectually. It's because they go hand in hand relationally.

I see. So when they learn about evolution, they forget about their own religion and get lower IQs, while when atheists learn about evolution they start remembering stuff about christianity and who the vice-president is, and get smarter. This deserves further investigation!

[brvheart 1,752]

You lack of understand in the English is upset to me.

...

It probably is. I don't care that much, but I do prefer it isn't outright said.Anyway, I think I normally post in here when there's a minor quibble, not a heinous error.

You might be right, but usually I expect your posts to be really fair, and I look forward to reading them in either section of the forum.

[Balloon guy 158]

Yeah so you are agreeing with me that the christian god wants people to be stupid.

He uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

No, the function of the ignition is unrelated to your belief in its function.

If you don't believe it will work, why would you try to engage it?In other words, your faith outs it's truth in action. However should you deny its truth and have faith that it is the spark plug that runs the car and later take the car to the Master Mechanic, and He says..well, as smart as you think you are, and even though you understand the transmission and can adjust the seats, you have basically missed the real purpose of the car while you have mocked the people who don't know why the ignition works, they just know it does.The Master Mechanic then says: "Didn't you notice the owner's manual I left for you?"

That would be different than what you are saying, which is that the people who know nothing about the world are smart because they know one particular thing. That's not what smart means.

What if the only thing you know is that going into the cave is not good. If the cave has bears, then that would make you the smartest person in the world if you are compared to the 'other smart' people who think the cave is empty.

They don't know about their own religion. Atheists answered more questions correct about christianity than the christians did. They didn't know that the first book of the bible was Genesis, for instance. We are not talking about specific, sect-related details.

JWs have to take classes before they go out selling their watchtowers on how to answer Christians when they confront them about the new world translation and its many errors. So they think they are smart also, because they have studied the error.

Why do they have lower IQs? This isn't just about being non-political. You are saying that the only kind of intelligence they possess is the one that causes them to believe in god. That's a severe twisting of what intelligence is in order to avoid the conclusion that religious people are stupider. Let's say I found that Nazis were lower IQ and had less general knowledge than other people. Couldn't they say: oh, we are smart all right, because we understand the most important thing about the universe, that white people are the best. We don't need to waste our mental power on anything else. It's the rest of you who are stupid, wasting your time with things like memory, logic, math, and knowledge.

Glad you recognize that nazis are just following along with the general world view of most evolutionist.

[CaneBrain 95]

...You might be right, but usually I expect your posts to be really fair, and I look forward to reading them in either section of the forum.

It's nice of you to admit he might be right about his own motivation for posting.

[SBriand 4]

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....

[Balloon guy 158]

I see. So when they learn about evolution, they forget about their own religion and get lower IQs, while when atheists learn about evolution they start remembering stuff about christianity and who the vice-president is, and get smarter. This deserves further investigation!

When people become atheist, they become obsessed with learning the bad arguments against Christianity that are easily seen through, but the scales on their eyes keep them blinded to the truth.Having a semblance of wisdom, they make themselves to be fools.So far I have not met or read a single atheist who has more then a rudimentary understanding of simple Bible truths.The fact that we have to return over and over again to the difference between the old testament and the new is a good example.It is funny to me that you guys are so quick to claim I know nothing about evolution, when I understand it perfectly, I just don't put lipstick on that pig. And then you turn right around and pretend that you know more about religion because you know that Genesis is the first book of the Bible.When knowing religion equals knowing static facts, then the word knowing has changed.

[brvheart 1,752]

It's nice of you to admit he might be right about his own motivation for posting.

He probably should have run it by me via PM, but I'll let it slide this time.

[Balloon guy 158]

Who = Rush Limbaugh?Brvheart, don't ruin Skeleton Jelly for everyone.

Wait, whats the deal with SJ?Who is he?Jelly seems familiar but I can't tell for sure.Just tell me.Jewish guilt will be applied if not.

[Skeleton Jelly 2]

Wait, whats the deal with SJ?Who is he?Jelly seems familiar but I can't tell for sure.

[CaneBrain 95]

So far I have not met or read a single atheist who has more then a rudimentary understanding of simple Bible truths.

Probably because they don't consider them "truths".